One Brake Unstowed on Opening

[david3 0]

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I have a set of risers that will fire the right brake on about every other opening if anybody would like to try them.

Okay. Where can I pick them up?

[DBCOOPER 1]

The unemployment office.

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[sundevil777 93]

Why are premature brake releases so common now?

It seems like it was so much more rare back in the days before people had sliders designed to pass over toggles, and this was before people had the little pocket/keeper for the toggle nose. I've never had a premature release (I also have never used a system that allowed the slider to pass over the toggles). I am very careful about setting my brakes, is that all it takes to not have this occur? Of course if one side of your catseye breaks that would also cause it, but I don't think that is causing these incidents.

I had a Paraflite Astrobe that required releasing that toggles to get it to open, that was interesting, kinda like a trigger.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[jlmiracle 7]

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I don't believe that a self-induced, controlled spiral is going to be anything like a brakefire during opening.

Well, since it HAS happened to me on more than one occassion, i can say it is.

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[PiLFy 0]

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Am I to continue increasing the turns' force until I get a few twists?

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By all means...NO!

Jesus Christ...You don't want me to have any fun...

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Please, for your safety...get away from the idea of time. That "few seconds" may have put you on the ground or it may have only lost 50 ft.

Please focus on altitude. You're having a fixable problem you need to know your altitude. THAT is your determinant for decisions and actions.

I'm w/ya, Pops. I've been taught to check altitude first. I've also read about a few jumpers going in thinking "Just a few more seconds. I've almost got it."

[jacketsdb23 45]

Folks, this isn't a mundane task without benefit. We now have two fatalities in the past year that may be directly linked to something as "simple" as a brake fire.

One was very experienced, one was a beginner. Learn as much as you can about the parachute you are jumping.

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[popsjumper 2]

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Folks, this isn't a mundane task without benefit.... Learn as much as you can about the parachute you are jumping.

Just as simple as that.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[peek 20]

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Why are premature brake releases so common now?

- Much of it is poor Velcroless toggle design
- Another large factor is sliders that come down over the toggles

When someone comes down from a jump where they had to deal with a premature brake release, the whole dropzone should be gathering around them studying the risers and toggles, and saying stuff like, "Dude, you almost died, you need to fix that now!"

Instead people have just given it a cutesy name, "Brake Fire", and throw the expression around like they would "line twists".

At this point in history I think we are going to need to start over again, meaning that when enough people die from problems that began with a premature brake release, that people will start doing something about it.

P.S.

There is nothing in the world that secures toggles as well as fresh (with the ripping sound) Velcro. Nothing. Add to that the elastic keepers for the tip of the toggle, and it is damn near impossible to dislodge a toggle.

P.P.S.

And stow your excess steering line somewhere!

[JohnMitchell 14]

I've never had a premature brake release. I have caught a few people setting them incorrectly. I train packers to pull up sharply on the steering line after setting the brakes. This double checks how you did and gets rid of any slack in your set. If someone says it happens quite often to them, a rigger needs to either inspect their risers or watch them pack.

As far as any spinning mal, 2 tries on the toggles to clear it, then look-reach-chop-dump-arch. Easy easy.

[airtwardo 6]

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I have a set of risers that will fire the right brake on about every other opening if anybody would like to try them.

Love to...once!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[ridestrong 1]

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What could be the reasons?
- not recognizing the situation - oh only one toggle released, pop the other one or maintain steady flight with the released toggle
- not being able to reach a handle - twisted harness
- not being able to pull a handle - multitude of factors here

.

From most of the incident reports and the more recent video that was also posted... They seem to be more likely due to:

-possible panic/fear of cutting away, resulting in fighting the mal to the last second.
-inability to properly assess the mal and initiate timely EPs.
-inability to maintain alti awareness during mal


Just seems less likely that they wouldn't be able to reach or pull EITHER the cutaway or reserve handle. We will likely never know the exact reason for many of these late/no-pulls (of the cutaway or reserve) but my suspicion seems to lean toward panic and inability to take appropriate action due to lack of mental focus/awareness.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[bofh 0]

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There is nothing in the world that secures toggles as well as fresh (with the ripping sound) Velcro. Nothing. Add to that the elastic keepers for the tip of the toggle, and it is damn near impossible to dislodge a toggle.

I'd say that Atom's newer, velcroless toggles secure the toggles better than velcro. Chutingstar will change other risers to be like them:
http://www.chutingstar.com/expertadvice_en/rigging/53-russian-toggle-system-secure.html

[virgin-burner 1]

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There is nothing in the world that secures toggles as well as fresh (with the ripping sound) Velcro. Nothing. Add to that the elastic keepers for the tip of the toggle, and it is damn near impossible to dislodge a toggle.

I'd say that Atom's newer, velcroless toggles secure the toggles better than velcro. Chutingstar will change other risers to be like them:
http://www.chutingstar.com/expertadvice_en/rigging/53-russian-toggle-system-secure.html

not sure, but doesnt that look like paratec's version?

i think UPT has a great system with the truelock-thing.. even secures the excessive brake-line..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[bofh 0]

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not sure, but doesnt that look like paratec's version?

i think UPT has a great system with the truelock-thing.. even secures the excessive brake-line..

I've only jumped a student paratec rig once and its risers did not use this system as far as I remember. But perhaps the NeXt Century rig does?

After my first chop (including lost freebag+PC) I bought myself a pair of TruLock risers hoping they were better. I've had four brake fires with them. The excess lines of my canopies are so long that they did little to stop the spinning too.

The main problem with the TruLock risers is that they don't put enough pressure on the toggles, no elastics at all, just relying on the shape of the riser to apply pressure. I've had them sewn tigher now, but I'll move them to my big safire when I get my new risers from Chutingstar.

[kuai43 7]

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P.S.

There is nothing in the world that secures toggles as well as fresh (with the ripping sound) Velcro. Nothing.

Maybe... maybe not. I know they're not fashionable, but these haven't ever failed me. And they give great feedback when released.

Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

[theonlyski 3]

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i think UPT has a great system with the truelock-thing.. even secures the excessive brake-line..

Which they don't recommend anymore.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[virgin-burner 1]

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P.S.

There is nothing in the world that secures toggles as well as fresh (with the ripping sound) Velcro. Nothing.

Maybe... maybe not. I know they're not fashionable, but these haven't ever failed me. And they give great feedback when released.

those dont look too bad actually..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[virgin-burner 1]

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i think UPT has a great system with the truelock-thing.. even secures the excessive brake-line..

Which they don't recommend anymore.

since when!? there a bulletin out for that? got a link!?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[theonlyski 3]

http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/PDF/Support/Manual/MAN_004___Vector_3_Manual_07_44_13[1].pdf

Can't use the URL tag on here, so copy and paste.

Pg 64 I believe.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[virgin-burner 1]

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http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/PDF/Support/Manual/MAN_004___Vector_3_Manual_07_44_13[1].pdf

Can't use the URL tag on here, so copy and paste.

Pg 64 I believe.

spot on with the page..

is there any reason to that!? and another question, the metal ring is kind of in the middle, and the pictures dont show if it should be left or right on the rig.. do you know!?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[theonlyski 3]

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http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/PDF/Support/Manual/MAN_004___Vector_3_Manual_07_44_13[1].pdf

Can't use the URL tag on here, so copy and paste.

Pg 64 I believe.

spot on with the page..

is there any reason to that!? and another question, the metal ring is kind of in the middle, and the pictures dont show if it should be left or right on the rig.. do you know!?

Only thing I can think of is that it could trap the pin with the line and make it impossible to pull out. I can take pictures later tonight if you want. (Think your break line tightning up around the head of the pin, where the tape holding it to the riser is.) Tighten it up, could make for a hard pull to try to get it passed it.

Are you talking about the ring that you pull the finger trip passed? (just under the storage pocket for the top of the toggle)

I don't think that ring makes a difference as to which side its on, just so long as the line is straight. You can see in the photo on that page, the third one down has the ring to the right. I stow them either way, and have never had a problem.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[virgin-burner 1]

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Quote

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http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/PDF/Support/Manual/MAN_004___Vector_3_Manual_07_44_13[1].pdf

Can't use the URL tag on here, so copy and paste.

Pg 64 I believe.

spot on with the page..

is there any reason to that!? and another question, the metal ring is kind of in the middle, and the pictures dont show if it should be left or right on the rig.. do you know!?

Only thing I can think of is that it could trap the pin with the line and make it impossible to pull out. I can take pictures later tonight if you want. (Think your break line tightning up around the head of the pin, where the tape holding it to the riser is.) Tighten it up, could make for a hard pull to try to get it passed it.

Are you talking about the ring that you pull the finger trip passed? (just under the storage pocket for the top of the toggle)

I don't think that ring makes a difference as to which side its on, just so long as the line is straight. You can see in the photo on that page, the third one down has the ring to the right. I stow them either way, and have never had a problem.

i must say, you got me completely lost there.. with all of it!

trapping the ring of the pin, ok.. what extraordinary causes would make that possible? for that to happen, the top-keeper of the toggle must be torn off or something.. i dont have the mental-picture ready how my rig looks like right now i must say..

usually i stow my excess to the outside of my body in relevance to the body, as i think it was suggested by the previous version of the manual..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi bofh,

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Chutingstar will change other risers to be like them:

Those look a lot like the PdeF toggles; see photo.

JerryBaumchen

PS) I would recommend anyone going to a pin for their toggle to use the Toggle Pin by Square1, 2 ½” (63 mm) long Toggle Pin – available from Square1 as their Part Number 4131240.

It is longer than the Pull-Out Pin for greater reliability & security ( IMO ).

[theonlyski 3]

Remember, this is the only thing I CAN SEE that may give them reason... If the brake line is tensioned right, it could lock the toggle in there.

Another possibility is you could put your hand thru the brake line and end up with a knot (if the brake line is long enough)

But, really... I'm just guessing.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[bofh 0]

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is there any reason to that!? and another question, the metal ring is kind of in the middle, and the pictures dont show if it should be left or right on the rig.. do you know!?

A friend of mine had a toggle pop open and got a hard opening. The tapes on the back of the TruLock riser broke and the steering line tied a knot around the toggle in some way that prevented it from being released. He landed uneventful on the rears. I don't remember the specifics, but if the end had not been fixated with the pin, it would not have made the knot.