nigel99 364 #51 April 19, 2011 Quote In that light, it is better to get your information from people you know, and that know you than some dude with a cool user name. Sorry to break it to you but Ron is not a cool user name - maybe that is your problem?BTW This thread changed my views. I hadn't appreciated the fact that you guys get people who do stupid things they read on the internet. I used to be mildly irritated when people would knock questions back with "ask your instructors" instead of answering the question.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #52 April 19, 2011 Quote Sorry to break it to you but Ron is not a cool user name - maybe that is your problem? What?!?!?!? I'll go slap my Mom... BRB. Quote BTW This thread changed my views. I hadn't appreciated the fact that you guys get people who do stupid things they read on the internet. Oh my God...... The things I have seen from 'advice' my students have been given. You know how tunnel time is good for students? Did you know that the technique for flipping over taught to tunnel students is TOTALLY different than freefall students? YEAH........ So AFF L6 and my student tries a back flip... Screws it up and ends on his back... I start to get closer (just in case) and the student arches and flips over perfectly.... Sweet! They try again and flip on their backs... I move a little closer, but not much since they did so well last time and the student arches and flips back over... AWESOME! Third time the student flips over. I just watch since they have been doing so well, and the student GOES FETAL AND STARTS HAULING ASS!!!!! The student is unable to flip back over, but keeps trying to roll over while being fetal (hint: that ain't gonna work at that skill level). I got opened a little South of 2k. So on the ground after all is said and done, the student tells me that he wanted to try what the tunnel told him to do...... In the tunnel, we do not want people to arch while on their back because they will fly up and risk getting hurt by flying asymmetrical into a wall and then falling to the floor. But in freefall, they can't push against the net to help roll over. Same basic problem, two totally different fixes. SEEMED like a good idea to the student."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
david3 0 #53 April 19, 2011 Quote Quote I'm not going to name names because I don't want to be accused of making a "personal attack" but the fact that there are people on this forum with a couple dozen jumps and THOUSANDS of posts (many of them in skydiving-related threads) is exactly why new jumpers should avoid taking any sort of advice from DZ until they have enough experience to know whose posts to ignore. New skydivers are overwhelmed with information and resources and may see a post by someone with 5000 posts and assume that gives them credibility when they actually don't know shit about skydiving. I recall a few years back when a guy with about 50 jumps wrote a freefall simulation to explain exit order and separation and posted it on the old rec.skydiving newsgroup. It was initially greeted with derision by most experienced jumpers (Bryan Burke, Billvon and Winsor were about the only exceptions). After all, the guy only had some 50 jumps, what did he know? Bryan posted it on the Skydive Arizona website. Now it is still regularly quoted as a good source of information on the subject. Not everything he posted was a gem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WickedOne513 0 #54 April 19, 2011 I am a new jumper here and I would like to say that I read a lot on here, but I then take the information and try and measure that against common sense. Then if I have questions I usually pm someone that I believe knows what there talking about on here. Or will ask my coach when I start my classes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Inspired 0 #55 April 19, 2011 At the dropzone, Ive been given some terrible advice from some very experienced and accomplished skydivers. For example, the 45 degree rule for exit separation, or that at 70 jumps, I should start trying front riser turns to final. If that advice had been given here on DZ.com, it would have been met with a barrage of posts from the more sensible and knowledgeable people here, explaining why that advice should not be accepted. I would probably even learn a little about exit separation and recovery arcs. That's the reason I like DZ.com. Everybody is listening in, so bad advice is usually challenged immediately. We see it happen daily in these forums. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #56 April 19, 2011 QuoteI am a new jumper here and I would like to say that I read a lot on here, but I then take the information and try and measure that against common sense. Then if I have questions I usually pm someone that I believe knows what there talking about on here. Or will ask my coach when I start my classes. Please read Post# 14 and substitute "common sense" where you see "logic". In a nutshell, your common sense may lead you astray if you don't have the knowledge base to support it. Before you filter it through your current "common sense", take it up with your instructors at the DZ, not the PM guy, THEN you can adjust your common sense based on the new information.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpsalot-2 3 #57 April 19, 2011 The 45 deg seperation rule ( not a rule, but smart ) is very acceptable. For one thing, you have to look out at the jumper who exitted before you, and "watch the seperation". Counting is not the only method. Let's say the two way freefliers just left ahead of you. They did a headdown exit, but were unable to get vertical for what ever reason, and are still tracking along the line of flight. You never looked at them because you only count. You exit, not realizing you have very little horizontal seperation. They are now under you. One of their pitot chutes gets loose and a premature opening happens. You hit this jumper. Think this is an unrealistic senerio ? I use the 45 deg method.Life is short ... jump often. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #58 April 19, 2011 QuoteThe 45 deg seperation rule ( not a rule, but smart ) is very acceptable. It has been debunked over and over and over as a crappy method."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpsalot-2 3 #59 April 19, 2011 Would you explain please, sir.Life is short ... jump often. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 1 #60 April 19, 2011 QuoteWould you explain please, sir. The 45 degree rule has been roundly criticized and debunked on these boards, by experts, in numerous threads over the years. Start here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=search_results&search_forum=all&search_string=%2245+degree+rule%22&search_type=AND&search_fields=sb&search_time=&search_user_username=&sb=post_time&mh=500 (Note - read only those threads in which the phrase "45 degree rule" is highlighted in bold.] Then get back to us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpsalot-2 3 #61 April 19, 2011 Wow....People on those threads really do seem passionate about this. Lots to read there for anyone, like me, who had not read them before. Seems like a 50/50 split on how people feel. Very enlightening. Thanks for the "clicky" to the threads.Life is short ... jump often. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
strop45 0 #62 April 19, 2011 QuoteThe 45 degree rule has been roundly criticized and debunked on these boards, by experts, in numerous threads over the years. But....but.....but.....they aren't your instructors, many of whom still teach the 45 degree rule and will shout down any newbie who dares to suggest it doesn't work...THE %^^%%!!! INTERNET...I'VE BEEN USING IT FOR 25 YEARS AND 25,000 JUMPS FOOL.....The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artard 0 #63 April 19, 2011 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect I think this is relevant reading and is what I was referring to when I said as a newbie you lack the proper "mental framework." Even if you are a smart responsible person you can make incorrect conclusions because your overall knowledge is incomplete or flawed. As they say, you don't know what you don't know.http://www.mixcloud.com/prajna http://vimeo.com/avidya Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,343 #64 April 19, 2011 QuoteSeems like a 50/50 split on how people feel.If you agree that physics drives what happens when people jump out of airplanes, then it's better to listen to the folks who understand physics. Otherwise, it's like taking advice on swooping from the guy with 163 jumps who does it after his freefly loads. Really. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #65 April 19, 2011 Quote People on those threads really do seem passionate about this. It is a safety issue. Quote Seems like a 50/50 split on how people feel. Please look at which side brought data to the discussion. BillV brought a good video showing how people never actually cross the line. Kallend is a physics professor and used that crazy math to show why it worked. Those that seem to come from the 45* works camp seem to bring anecdotal evidence. I used to think that 45* works. Then after some discussion with Kallend I realized that I was actually not looking at 45*, but rather seeing how far the previous group was away from me. And BTW, anyone that just counts without looking is stupid. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMFin 0 #66 April 20, 2011 I actually think that often DZ.com offers you actually more objective information than you might get at the dropzone. If you post a question here, hundreds of different people are going to read it. At the dropzone you will only hear one persons opinion, and even though he might have thousansa of jumps and lot of experience, he might be wrong or he might say something for a fact, even though there might be several other good and valid responses also. Here on dz.com it is MUCH MUCH more likely that this kind of disinformation will be spotted by others and it will be corrected. On a debateable subject you will learn there might be several good answers when you read these forums. On the dropzone you wont always get to hear all these different opinions. Some people tell how their student learned something wrong on DZ.com. Well I think MUCH more often I hear how someone recieved bad info on real life and no one was there to cerrect him. In this way dz.com might be actually more reliable source of info. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WickedOne513 0 #67 April 20, 2011 In defense I try to get advice from multiple sources, people, forums, experts/instructors and manuals (if applicable). Then I take the information and compare to what I read. People around me hate it because I read everything about the subject to learn as much as possible. Now I do know that there are a lot of people out there that are not like myself, but there are a few. As people have mentioned on here already I feel that bad advice or information can be experimented with no matter if your a student or fresh A license holder. In some cases one might think that the fresh license holder might be even more dangerous because they don't have instructors/coaches jumping with them. The other advantage you do find on here a lot is there are a bunch of really experienced jumpers like POP's that ready post and have no issue with politely or impolitely if needed telling someone there an idiot By no stretch do I think that anything on this thread is wrong. But I do feel that subjects like this could lead to an issue of instant flaming of noob's on the forum. If members start to think that any person on here that doesnt have X number of jumps is an idiot. It can create a huge shirt of new members not reading or posting, which in my experience with other forums is the quickest way to alienate new people interested in the sport and kill this forum at the same time. Please like everything else on here take this as my opinion. Nothing more or less Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #68 April 20, 2011 QuotePeople around me hate it because I read everything about the subject to learn as much as possible. I love this! Wear it like a badge of honor! Believe me, you are in the minority. Most people want it spoon-fed to them. DO try to promote that attitude to those who "hate it"...they know not what they do. ALL you youngsters out there....take note of this. Take charge of YOUR learning and knowledge. I DO question this part, though: "I feel that bad advice or information can be experimented with..." Taken at face value, I would argue against that idea.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #69 April 20, 2011 Quote Quote In that light, it is better to get your information from people you know, and that know you than some dude with a cool user name. Sorry to break it to you but Ron is not a cool user name - maybe that is your problem?BTW This thread changed my views. I hadn't appreciated the fact that you guys get people who do stupid things they read on the internet. I used to be mildly irritated when people would knock questions back with "ask your instructors" instead of answering the question. Just one example I can think of -- some guy in the pacific northwest with a few jumps and wanting to be a base-jumper heard about a bridge a little ways out of town that was jumpable. He found himself a baserig, drove out to the WRONG BRIDGE, and jumped off. Result? A body bag. This scenario has happened more than once. A little bit on knowledge can be a dangerous thing.If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
guineapiggie101 0 #70 April 27, 2011 when you guys were students or are students, would you ever consider posting a video of one of your AFF jumps (that you got videoed), on here to give a point of reference to other posters who could be posting advice to threads you start? Just curious. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #71 April 27, 2011 Quotewhen you guys were students or are students, would you ever consider posting a video of one of your AFF jumps (that you got videoed), on here to give a point of reference to other posters who could be posting advice to threads you start? Just curious. If you're thinking of doing that...I wouldn't. You are working with instructors that 'know' you and know what they've taught you and have a better understanding of what's going on with you than any innerweb 'instructor' will ever have. All that will do, is get ya lots of... and possibly conflicting advice that will only slow you down in the long run. Listen to the people working with you one on one. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #72 April 27, 2011 Quote when you guys were students or are students,.... I couldn't get in-air documentation of my training jumps. There was nobody around willing to jump with a hammer, a chisel and a big block of stone. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #73 April 27, 2011 Quote Quote when you guys were students or are students,.... I couldn't get in-air documentation of my training jumps. There was nobody around willing to jump with a hammer, a chisel and a big block of stone. Tools?? You had TOOLS!!?? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #74 April 27, 2011 Quote If you're thinking of doing that...I wouldn't. You are working with instructors that 'know' you and know what they've taught you and have a better understanding of what's going on with you than any innerweb 'instructor' will ever have. All that will do, is get ya lots of... and possibly conflicting advice that will only slow you down in the long run. Listen to the people working with you one on one. Really good advice, Jim... Another reason it can slow the progression is that you'll occasionally find a student that "mom/pop's" their questions (getting advice from multiple instructors or internet guru's until they get the answer they want to hear) How many times have we seen this in say...canopy progression? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #75 April 27, 2011 Quotewhen you guys were students or are students, would you ever consider posting a video of one of your AFF jumps (that you got videoed), on here to give a point of reference to other posters who could be posting advice to threads you start? Just curious. Nope, you would still have the same people making the same types of comments.... And some would still be flat out wrong even with the video aids. I can tell you that I often see a problem in freefall that is not evident on the video. The reverse happens as well... Best case is to have the guy that was actually in freefall with you look at the video (I am sure they did this)... anything else is second hand. Best advice is still to trust the folks that are sitting in front of you."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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