Advice on DZ.com

[nigel99 143]

I have a question regarding peoples attitudes to advice given here. There are a number of long term posters who regularly give very good advice, quite a few newbies discuss fears, problems and experiences as well. There are always a handful of trolls or mad skilz people but they normally stick out like a sore thumb.

Why do some posters feel that it is necessary to reinforce that you should never take advice over the internet? Surely people use these forums as a basis for discussion with "real people" at their dz's. Are there real incidents where people have read something on here and gone and done something stupid, or is it a hypothetical problem?

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[DSE 3]

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Why do some posters feel that it is necessary to reinforce that you should never take advice over the internet? Surely people use these forums as a basis for discussion with "real people" at their dz's. Are there real incidents where people have read something on here and gone and done something stupid, or is it a hypothetical problem?

Just wait'll you have a student tell you "Someone on DZ.com told me that I should..."
It's not hypothetical; sometimes, one doesn't find out until something less than positive has occurred.

[nigel99 143]

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Why do some posters feel that it is necessary to reinforce that you should never take advice over the internet? Surely people use these forums as a basis for discussion with "real people" at their dz's. Are there real incidents where people have read something on here and gone and done something stupid, or is it a hypothetical problem?

Just wait'll you have a student tell you "Someone on DZ.com told me that I should..."
It's not hypothetical; sometimes, one doesn't find out until something less than positive has occurred.

Thanks I realise that you guys to get to see both sides. I guess I am to trusting in peoples ability to think and assess things for themselves.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[AggieDave 6]

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Why do some posters feel that it is necessary to reinforce that you should never take advice over the internet? Surely people use these forums as a basis for discussion with "real people" at their dz's. Are there real incidents where people have read something on here and gone and done something stupid, or is it a hypothetical problem?

Just wait'll you have a student tell you "Someone on DZ.com told me that I should..."
It's not hypothetical; sometimes, one doesn't find out until something less than positive has occurred.

Thanks I realise that you guys to get to see both sides. I guess I am to trusting in peoples ability to think and assess things for themselves.

Don't do that. Most of skydiving is such a new environment to most low time jumpers, that bad advice or trolling advice can be mistaken as fact. Another side you may not have seen: I've been paid decent money as a canopy coach to fix what AFF-I's and USPA Coaches have "taught" for "canopy control." That's on more than one student! Just because someone is a real life AFF-I that you can talk to in person, doesn't mean they know what they are teaching!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[DocPop 1]

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I've been paid decent money as a canopy coach to fix what AFF-I's and USPA Coaches have "taught" for "canopy control." That's on more than one student! Just because someone is a real life AFF-I that you can talk to in person, doesn't mean they know what they are teaching!

What are some of the common things you see instructors getting wrong?

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[nigel99 143]

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Don't do that. Most of skydiving is such a new environment to most low time jumpers, that bad advice or trolling advice can be mistaken as fact. Another side you may not have seen: I've been paid decent money as a canopy coach to fix what AFF-I's and USPA Coaches have "taught" for "canopy control." That's on more than one student! Just because someone is a real life AFF-I that you can talk to in person, doesn't mean they know what they are teaching!

Unfortunately life is like that and a reason that reputation is so important. I think that is one of the key strengths of dz.com IF you hang around here enough. You learn about people who are sound individuals that you can trust.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[AggieDave 6]

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I've been paid decent money as a canopy coach to fix what AFF-I's and USPA Coaches have "taught" for "canopy control." That's on more than one student! Just because someone is a real life AFF-I that you can talk to in person, doesn't mean they know what they are teaching!

What are some of the common things you see instructors getting wrong?

There is some crazy stuff, it is all over the board in what is taught wrong. Another thing that is scary is what is NOT taught. Stalls, flat turns, recovery arc, all of which are important things to know about when things go wrong (like dodging another jumper low, or landing off). Still though, it is all over the board. Some of it are things that were taught wrong, a lot of topics weren't taught in enough detail and for some I don't think the instructor went back later to make sure it "stuck" with the student.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[DocPop 1]

Thanks Dave. I think my interest in canopy flight stemmed from how light the AFF course was on the topic. It seems like the coach and AFF-I courses don't spend much time on canopy skills so I guess it's understandable (not right, but understandable).

My home DZ has asked Flight-1 to provide a third "teaching canopy skills" day for instructors in addition to the basic & advanced courses. I think this is a huge step in acknowledging and addressing the problem.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[Ron 7]

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I guess I am to trusting in peoples ability to think and assess things for themselves

[mechanic voice] Well there is you problem right there![/mechanic voice]

You cannot reasonably expect a new person in such a technical sport (and high speed and dangerous) to be able separate the good advice from the bad advice.... If they were able to do that, then they might not be asking the question in the first place.

DSE gave a great example.... I have had students come up to me on the DZ. I'll brief them for a level and how to do the maneuvers.... And they follow the instructions perfectly on the ground.... Then in the air they will pull some crazy assed move that I have never talked to them about.... In the debrief I get "I was reading DZ.com....."

I can think of two problem students that would *argue* with me about AFF. I eventually turned them over to the CI and he told them to either stop getting advice from the Internet, or find another DZ.

I have told this story before, but I had a student tell me that if she did not have a skyhook, she was not jumping. Long story short, she had no idea what a skyhook was but she had read they were a must have item.

Heck it was just a few weeks ago where a student asked on here what alti to buy and someone suggested the audible only N3 with iPod connector.

If you know enough to tell good advice from bad, this can be a great resource. If you do not (and most people know less than they think) it can be a bad idea to take advice here to heart without talking about it to someone who knows your exp and progression.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[DiverMike 5]

I also find it annoying when instructors/riggers indicate to me that I shouldn't use DZ.com as a reliable resource, especially when it pertains to service bulletins and FAR's that are posted here. I am a big boy and can discern fact from fiction. I don't use DZ.COM to learn any skills that are better acquired at the drop zone through personal instruction, but I find it quite useful for 'what is legal' discussions.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[guineapiggie101 0]

I'm a newbie AFF student and a lot of times I post on here to vent or sometimes see if others have gone through the same issues I have. I know that with mechanical and technical issues and questions, I should direct those to my instructors.

Is it wrong, as a newbie, to use DZ.com as a sounding board for my fears and concerns with skydiving? Just curious. I really do love the sport and my instructors have been excellent with helping me out.

I don't know where else to talk about skydiving or my worries and concerns, when I am not at the DZ. I can't talk about it with my friends or family. Most of my friends think I am nuts for doing this.

[JohnnyMarko 1]

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Why do some posters feel that it is necessary to reinforce that you should never take advice over the internet?

Ummm...because....mad....skill..........pass?

[nigel99 143]

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I have told this story before, but I had a student tell me that if she did not have a skyhook, she was not jumping. Long story short, she had no idea what a skyhook was but she had read they were a must have item.

Heck it was just a few weeks ago where a student asked on here what alti to buy and someone suggested the audible only N3 with iPod connector.

I love the skyhook story especially as my dad was an RAF engineer and that was a prank they used to pull on apprentices 50 years ago (Sending a guy to stores to requisition a skyhook, or anti-centrifugal paint).

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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Why do some posters feel that it is necessary to reinforce that you should never take advice over the internet? Surely people use these forums as a basis for discussion with "real people" at their dz's. Are there real incidents where people have read something on here and gone and done something stupid, or is it a hypothetical problem?

Just wait'll you have a student tell you "Someone on DZ.com told me that I should..."
It's not hypothetical; sometimes, one doesn't find out until something less than positive has occurred.

Thanks I realise that you guys to get to see both sides. I guess I am to trusting in peoples ability to think and assess things for themselves.

What you have to realize is some people ask the same question over and over again till they find someone to give them the answer they are looking for. It doesn't matter that 15 people already told them what they needed to hear.

[DiverMike 5]

So it is your assertation that nothing on DZ.COM is reliable? Or is it every rigger/instructor at a dropzone is a more valuable resource than DZ.COM?

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[nigel99 143]

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I'm a newbie AFF student and a lot of times I post on here to vent or sometimes see if others have gone through the same issues I have. I know that with mechanical and technical issues and questions, I should direct those to my instructors.

Is it wrong, as a newbie, to use DZ.com as a sounding board for my fears and concerns with skydiving? Just curious. I really do love the sport and my instructors have been excellent with helping me out.

I don't know where else to talk about skydiving or my worries and concerns, when I am not at the DZ. I can't talk about it with my friends or family. Most of my friends think I am nuts for doing this.

I am from a different generation really. All my early skydiving was done prior to the internet (jeez that makes me feel old). I spent my time hanging out at the dz not that it really helped on who you could trust back then either. The guys posting their concerns see both sides of the coin, maybe it is better to email/chat with the instructors on a one to one?

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[nigel99 143]

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I also find it annoying when instructors/riggers indicate to me that I shouldn't use DZ.com as a reliable resource, especially when it pertains to service bulletins and FAR's that are posted here. I am a big boy and can discern fact from fiction. I don't use DZ.COM to learn any skills that are better acquired at the drop zone through personal instruction, but I find it quite useful for 'what is legal' discussions.

I would agree that it is not a reliable resource. It is a loosely moderated forum that is not an official outlet for information. Not that you can't get visibility of information that you can subsequently verify at an official source.

Don't get me wrong - I read and ask questions here alot. I do have a couple of trusted people that I would always run things past though.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Andy9o8 0]

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anti-centrifugal paint

Don't laugh. That shit is impossible to get off once it dries.

[djmarvin 2]

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Surely people use these forums as a basis for discussion with "real people" at their dz's.

For the most part I believe this is true, but do you realky think it is 100% true. I have seen several dz.comers over the years show up to the DZ and never have an in face conversation with anyone about the topic they had on here. I agree we can all be more polite about reminding them to talk to their instructor.

DJ Marvin
AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E
http://www.theratingscenter.com

[Niki1 1]

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Is it wrong, as a newbie, to use DZ.com as a sounding board for my fears and concerns with skydiving? Just curious. I really do love the sport and my instructors have been excellent with helping me out.

It's not a good idea to take ANY single source of advice. Get advice and take it to another source and check it out. And maybe do that again. The various sources may agree with each other. Then you will know it's valid. The different sources may say it slightly differently. Perhaps one way of saying it makes a better impression on you and you understand it more clearly. Think of it like Quality Conltrol for ideas. If you use bad advice, it's not the adice giver that will pay the price.

Answer all the questions and question all the answers.

Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done.
Louis D Brandeis

Where are we going and why are we in this basket?

[DocPop 1]

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So it is your assertation that nothing on DZ.COM is reliable? Or is it every rigger/instructor at a dropzone is a more valuable resource than DZ.COM?

I think you have to take everything with a grain of salt.

It may be that dz.com is not that suitable for students as they may be more liable to absorb any and all information they read and are probably more prone to misunderstanding (although that is a problem for all of us).

I think advice here (and in general) is more useful the more experience you have. I say that because a person with more experience is more able to judge "advice" in the light of their own knowledge rather than just blindly believing it.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[DSE 3]

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I'm a newbie AFF student and a lot of times I post on here to vent or sometimes see if others have gone through the same issues I have. I know that with mechanical and technical issues and questions, I should direct those to my instructors.

Is it wrong, as a newbie, to use DZ.com as a sounding board for my fears and concerns with skydiving? Just curious. I really do love the sport and my instructors have been excellent with helping me out.
.

I'd submit it's almost the opposite, GP...
If you ask for gear advice/equipment information, you're likely to get some reasonably good responses that at least provide starting points of conversation for you and your instructors.
With diveflow questions, those solutions can't really be found via the 'net. You have some unique challenges, yet very few here have a clue about them, and are therefore very, very flawed in trying to provide advice to you (especially those that have double-digit jump numbers).

For example...you had a guy tell you to ask for a "relaxing release dive with no tasks" when you haven't yet successfully completed a primary level. Even contemplating diveflow advice from someone who does not yet have their A license isn't beneficial to you nor your instructors. It merely confuses the issue, gives you more things to ponder over/confuse the dive flow, things to "wish for" when you're not in the air....There is little upside, IMO.

The web is a great resource, but there are a lot of things that cannot be learned without hands-on, face to face instruction (IMO).

[skybytch 259]

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I've been paid decent money as a canopy coach to fix what AFF-I's and USPA Coaches have "taught" for "canopy control."

Is that the fault of the instructor or the fault of the student? If you didn't observe the instruction, how do you know what was or was not taught? It's not unusual for novice jumpers to have forgotten many things that they were taught as students, or to have absorbed incorrect information from other jumpers (IRL or online).

[kuai43 7]

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anti-centrifugal paint

Don't laugh. That shit is impossible to get off once it dries.

Perhaps you're doing it wrong. You have to use a belt-sander. Disc-sanders just won't work.

Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

[Andy9o8 0]

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anti-centrifugal paint

Don't laugh. That shit is impossible to get off once it dries.

Perhaps you're doing it wrong. You have to use a belt-sander. Disc-sanders just won't work.

Nope; both generate centrifugal force, so neither of them work.