The Psychology of "I can handle it"

[LawnDart21 0]

Most, if not all of us have been there at one point or another. On either one or both sides of this conversation:

Jumper 1: I think you are going too fast and are in danger of injuring or killing yourself.
Jumper 2: I hear what your saying and appreciate your concern, dont worry though, I can handle it.

Since I started jumping, I have always been fascinated by the tug of war between our egos our ability to reason. Most people inherently possess a "self preservation" instinct that sets off alarms when we knowingly or unknowlingly place ourselves in harms way. Without a base rig on, most people would not stand at the edge of a 3000ft cliff in Norway. (If you ever see pictures of the base rig-less observers, they are always either sitting down or laying down, no one ever just stands right on the edge) the body and mind sees the edge and instinct tells us to back off, even if only by a few feet, but the instinct is there. If a gun is fired in a crowd, teh reaction of the crowd is instinctively to duck, or seek cover. You wouldnt expect someone to stand there while an unknown gun is being fired, looking around to see whos shooting. Survival instinct wins over curiousity of whos shooting, and you take cover.

That is what fascinates me about how our egos have the ability to supress our survival instinct, enough so, that on an all too frequent basis, warnings and advice are not heeded and injury or death results.

My sister is in the midst of a PHD in Psychology and I am planning on asking her what her opinion is over the holidays.

Until then, I thought I'd start here.

If someone is told "If you point a loaded gun at yourself and pull the trigger, you will get injured or killed." Chances are they wil accept the logic and not perform the task.

But if some is told "If you keep flying your canopy like that you will get injured or killed", or "Attempting a 10-way head down when you have 50 jumps dramatically increases your chance or injury or death", more often than not in this sport, our egos squash our survival instinct and we pay no heed to the warning/advice.

What are your thoughts?

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[Zoter 0]

You are correct.
I had a recent turmoil deciding about buying a new canopy...
specifically......the size.
I have 'bought' a 168 but 'wanted' a 150.
There was no logical reason why I would want a 150 other than...my container will be smaller and a 150 is the size I want to be jumping in another 200jumps or so.
Everyone..said...dont do it....or be very ...very careful
I have jumped and landed both (borrowed) sizes without incident......or concern.
Could I handle landing the 150 in any conditions exactly where I wanted to at my current experence is unclear....ergo my eventual decision
I ordered a 168 reluctantly .....but am 'happy' that this is the right thing to do...( I will load a 168 at 1.4-1.5).......
Perfect example of ego nearly getting in the way of making a sensible decision........it was close though!
I have very good survival instincts and they won....

[MrBrant 0]

I'm not sure if it's 100% ego surpressign our survival instincts.

How many 1st jumpers do you know (and were you one - i know i was) that leave unstable, trying to 'land' on their feet, after jumping from the aircraft. Among other things, a good arch is sometimes a difficult task to master at first, you're trying to overcome many of your instincts to participate in this sport.

So, after arch, then move on to freefall skills (docking, etc). on the gound, if you see something you want to grab 8" away from you, you'd reach out and grab it. Now, in freefall, you have to learn to supress that instinct to reach out, and learn to fly.

I guess my point is - once we've started overcoming all these other instincts, and this is deamed OK, and 'good for you' - why stop there? People are bound (MOST people i woudl think anyway, defanetly not all) to keep going. keep pushing those limits.




That being said, that's no excuse to not listen to other people (who have seen it happen before, or had it happen to them) trying to help you. I think that's where the ego comes in. The wuffo's said it was dangerous and stupid to skydive, and you proved them wrong. Now you want to prove this new guy who says you can't do it wrong too.

That is, untill the wakeup call....

[gemini 0]

Usually the conversation from Jumper 2 also includes something like "I'm a quick learner", or "I'm better than the average jumper", or "You old guys are to conservative."

Blue skies,

Jim

[Dionysus 0]

I think one of the reasons we are able to suppress our instincts is because we see other people successfully doing what we desire to do. Can you imagine how much more nervous you would have been in the airplane on your first jump if you had never seen a skydive before, either from the ground or on video?
There is a big difference with your analogy of putting the gun to your head and flying a canopy. In our minds no matter how much talent and experience with firearms you have if you put a loaded gun to your head and fire it the outcome will be bad. With regards to canopies the outcome may not be bad, depending on your abilities. I don't see it so much as the suppression of a survival instinct but, rather, as the overestimation of our skills. A lack of knowledge also plays a part in this. Many of the aspiring swoopers out there, not all mind you, do not realize all of the dynamics involved and how to recognize them and what their effects can be. We are not afraid of what we don't know.

[wmw999 2,163]

Jumper 2 has probably seen people he knows, whom he can talk to as an equal, landing that handkerchief, flying head down, etc. He probably hasn't seen anyone point a gun at their head, pull the trigger, and survive.

Something that we have watched someone do, and that we can understand to some extent, looks easier than it is. I can tell you how to build a house, after all. Until you get to all those details -- and it's those insignificant details (to the big picture guy) that add up to a big hole in skydiving.

What to do about it? Present information as much as possible -- everyone wants to be considered smart enough to make their own decisions, so add enough information that they can see that they don't know everything. An assertion that they're stupid is probably not going to work unless you're also in control of them.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[AdrenalineBluez 0]

The analogy about putting the gun to your head and flying or exceeding your limits are divided outcomes. One is a given the other is a possibility. Why we are very conscious of a given and very lax in our approach to a possibility is just part of the "human" condition.

I.E. You put a gun to your head and you pull the trigger it is CERTAIN you are going to be injured and in all likelihood will die. So that is an automatic no no for us.

With either the canopy flight or the 10 way head down scenario there is no certain or given with respect to the inherent danger. There is only the possibility you could be injured or die. Which fits in to the mindset we associate with our sport. We already know we could be injured or die. So the increments in which we inject risk in to our activities are not nearly as pronounced. Nor are they acknowledged very often.

People seem much more willing to face chance than certainty...

This brings me to acceptable risk. Most people have their own perception of acceptable risk. In our sport we know we can be seriously injured or die on any given skydive. Assuming you continue to jump that becomes an acceptable risk. Albeit that it is still only a chance. Throughout our jumping career we will at our own discretion deem elements of the sport acceptable and unacceptable risks. For me right now there are things I will and will not do. Some of those things will change with experience, and some are carved in stone and I will never attempt them.

The catch is that most of the time the person/persons do not or have not fully recognized the total risk of the situation and proceed on.... They will strap on a cross braced napkin sized canopy at 200 jumps and eventually femur in because they thought "I can handle it". How or why they arrive at that conclusion escapes me.

To me it boils down that they never asked themselves the one important question. "What is the worst thing that can happen to me if I do this?"

I leave my ego in the truck when I go to the DZ. Do I want to downsize? Yes I do, as I am sure most newbs like me would like to do. Do I want to be in on more skilled and aggressive skydives? Again yes I do. Are any of the risks involved to doing either at this point unacceptable? ABSOLUTELY!!!!

I have made some really good friends in my time in the sport. I don’t care to ever see any of them get hurt or die because I didn't say something. Granted opening my mouth may or may not change the outcome. However, as a skydiver I feel it is everyone’s obligation to our brethren to speak out against the runaway ego. Hopefully that is a two way street... If I haven't fully recognized the risks of something I am about to do I want someone to go "Hey stupid ya wanna be the next fatality report?"

As to why some people will push it so hard, and pay the ultimate price when it could have easily been avoided???

My ego is in the truck....

"Uh oh! This is gonna hurt!"

[LawnDart21 0]

Quote

How many 1st jumpers do you know (and were you one - i know i was) that leave unstable, trying to 'land' on their feet, after jumping from the aircraft.

Admittedly I'm not an AFF instructor, but have 100s of first jump exits on videos, and I can't say that I've ever seen a student exit an airplane and try to "land on their feet" going unstable.....lol

I would like to see that though.......

Quote

I'm not sure if it's 100% ego surpressign our survival instincts.

If its not, I dont know what it is. (edit to add, I am only referring to dismissal of concrete evidence and well educated advice based on the individuals personal perception of thier own ability and skill set based on thier self image (ego) that wins out over the ability to reason when presented with concrete evidence which suggests they are in danger and need to slow down.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[Hazarrd 1]

Tom-

I can handle it.

see you up at pepperell soon.

.-.

[LawnDart21 0]

Quote

"I'm a quick learner"

My response to that is always:

"I hope your a quick healer too."

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[LawnDart21 0]

Quote

One is a given the other is a possibility.

Good point. But to me, and some others I would suspect, the only difference is timing.

Its a given that there is an immediate reprocussion from pulling a trigger.

You suggest (very reasonably so) that a swoop poser cratering himself for example, is more of a possibility. I don't necessarily see it that way. I see it as a given that that swooper will crater in, its only a matter of time. Maybe a day, week, month or a year, but I have witnessed it more often then not as a given, not a possibility, it just takes more time to happen then when a trigger is pulled.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[LawnDart21 0]

Darren, we gave you the bowling talk, bought you a bolling ball and even bought you bowling shoes, yet you still show up at the DZ. If you haven't figured it out by now, your never gonna get it, you might as well just keep jumping.........

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[AdrenalineBluez 0]

Gahhhhhhhhh I can never type what I mean!!! lol

People with the "I can handle it" mentality seem to ignore the possible ramifications of thier actions because in thier mind they have designated what they are about to do as acceptable risk.
If they would deem it a certainty they will crater in by exceeding thier skill and experience. (refer to the what is the worst thing that can happen to me if I do this comment.) And take the answer to heart it would make it less likely they will leave a divot at some point. As for the ones that refuse to heed the warnings, and leave thier common sense in the truck... Big5 is having a sale on divot fixers????

Ummmmmmmmmm lets see if this comes out right... The possibility is actually a reality when it is your ego talking...???? or for some If the mouth is on the brain is off???

"Uh oh! This is gonna hurt!"

[MrBrant 0]

Quote

I would like to see that though.......

Oh, so you want a laugh, do ya?

http://www.mrbrant.com/falling/index.html

[bmcd308 0]

>>I ordered a 168 reluctantly .....but am 'happy' that this is the right thing to do...( I will load a 168 at 1.4-1.5)....... <<

Plenty small, if not too small. See incidents forum for my account of one of my buds with more jumps than you misjudging his altitude as he swooped at that same wingloading.

Also see Germain WNE chart.

Brent

----------------------------------
www.jumpelvis.com

[livendive 8]

Jumper 1 and Jumper 2 both reside within my head. Jumper 2 usually wins that argument with "I can handle it" just as I let go of the airplane, to which Jumper 1 usually replies "Shit...you better!"

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[kallend 1,659]

Quote

Usually the conversation from Jumper 2 also includes something like "I'm a quick learner", or "I'm better than the average jumper", or "You old guys are to conservative."

49% of all skydivers are better than average.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[LawnDart21 0]

Quote

49% of all skydivers are better than average.

"How'd I do on that skydive?"

"You were absolutely average."

"I've seen people do it better than you, but I've also seen it worse. You should be neither proud of nor diappointed in your performance."

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[HeatherB 0]

Apparently 1.4 to 1.5 at 200-something jumps is considered conservative by many people now. Interesting...

Jump whatever you want. Throw away your RSL and AAD. Pull low. Get your swoop on. Go big! I'll hold your beer for ya! I don't think I care anymore.

[LawnDart21 0]

Quote

See incidents forum for my account of one of my buds with more jumps than you misjudging his altitude as he swooped at that same wingloading

If I recall (dont have the patience to reread that whole thread), alot of people said that it wasnt the wing loading that f'd him up, it was the HPL that he f'd up. That we would have done the same thing on a 170 instead of his 150.

My reading of Zoter's post was that he was atleast thinking safety when he made the decision. Your incidents post said that your friend was repeatedly warned but would not listen. Seem to not be the same situations.

PS, How is he doing these days, did he make a full recovery?

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[billvon 2,450]

>That we would have done the same thing on a 170 instead of his 150.

No. If you do the exact same thing on a 170 that you do on a 150, you'll hit the ground going slower. Speed (actually energy, which is speed squared times your weight) is what breaks things. A good landing on either canopy is equally as soft; and you can surely kill yourself under either one if you try. But for any given screwup you will be better off under the 170.

[kelpdiver 2]

the other bit that hurts is that quite a few people get away with bad choices on the canopy loading/landing. You see many postings along the lines of 'I was stupid, but lucky, don't take the chance.' So while one wouldn't dismiss the certain bullet wound, he can decide that he too will be one of the better skilled or lucky ones. Couple desire with that rationalization, and off you go.

[AlexCrowley 0]

strange synchronicity, was just discussing this.

Glad to see the loaded gun thing didnt work, had been thinking about it. It's more like russian roulette and having the opportunity to add more empty chambers or fill the ones that are there.

My friend and I have similar jump numbers (in the low/mid 20s), same canopy/reserve except he's 50lbs heavier than I am. (he's jumping 1.1:1, I'm 0.87:1).

At this point I consider falling out the door to be the acceptable risk part of the sport, once it gets really boring I'll consider adding some more 'excitement'.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[Reginald 0]

Quote

I had a recent turmoil deciding about buying a new canopy...specifically......the size.
I have 'bought' a 168 but 'wanted' a 150. I ordered a 168 reluctantly .....( I will load a 168 at 1.4-1.5).......Perfect example of ego nearly getting in the way of making a sensible decision........it was close though! I have very good survival instincts and they won....

So at 200 jumps loading your canopy at a 1.5 is “sensible”

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[frost 1]

Quote

Usually the conversation from Jumper 2 also includes something like "I'm a quick learner", or "I'm better than the average jumper", or "You old guys are to conservative."

A few others:
"i am in tune with my body" - my personal favorite
"I have always done extreme stuff"
"I raced motorcycles my entire life"

SoFPiDaRF - School of Fast Progress in Downsizing and Radical Flying. Because nobody knows your skills better than you.