nigel99 144 #1 August 1, 2011 Just wanted to communicate an "incident" that I witnessed yesterday in the hope that it will help people with their decision making process. A jumper on a Silhouette 230 was at the edge of the DZ approaching a hedgerow that is about 10-15 foot tall. He was clearly unsure that he would clear it and was using deep brakes to try and come in short. At the last minute he realised that he would not make it and at somewhere between 5 and 15 foot (hedgerow was between us) he buried the left toggle. I fully expected an ambulance, however some time later he came walking in, without even a limp. I am certainly not recommending last minute hooks on any size canopy by the way!Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rigless 0 #2 August 1, 2011 Learn 2 do braked turns... "All limits are self imposed." Icarus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 144 #3 August 1, 2011 Quote Learn 2 do braked turns... Actually the problem started long before then. The jumper should have committed to landing off early, rather than trying to squeeze over the top.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rugby82 0 #4 August 1, 2011 This isn't a benefit of low wingloading, it's pure luck. People have died doing this even with low wingloading.Blue skies! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SEREJumper 1 #5 August 1, 2011 Quoteand was using deep brakes to try and come in short. If the jumper was in deep brakes and then buried the left toggle (even more), that would essentially be a brake turn. If the jumper was at full flight, then buried the toggle, then yes, he was just lucky that day. If you turn any size canopy low enough and aggressive, it will hurt.We're not fucking flying airplanes are we, no we're flying a glorified kite with no power and it should be flown like one! - Stratostar Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrancoR 0 #6 August 1, 2011 QuoteThis isn't a benefit of low wingloading, it's pure luck. People have died doing this even with low wingloading. And even more frequently with higher wingloadings. Lower Wingloadings make you safer in such situations, but i agree they still don't make ist safe.If it does not cost anything you are the product. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #7 August 1, 2011 QuoteThis isn't a benefit of low wingloading, it's pure luck. People have died doing this even with low wingloading. Luck had nothing to do with it. It was simple physics. The jumper hit the ground at a survivable speed because of the large canopy over his head. Had he been on a Crossfire 2 loaded at 1.8 he would have been seriously injured of maybe dead. See the difference. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #8 August 1, 2011 >This isn't a benefit of low wingloading, it's pure luck. People have died doing this >even with low wingloading. Yes. But the smart money is on the larger parachute. The larger the parachute you have, the more likely you are to survive a mistake. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rigless 0 #9 August 1, 2011 That's pretty obvious. But does that mean everybody has to jump large parachutes now? "All limits are self imposed." Icarus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinciflies 0 #10 August 1, 2011 QuoteLuck had nothing to do with it. It was simple physics. The jumper hit the ground at a survivable speed because of the large canopy over his head. Had he been on a Crossfire 2 loaded at 1.8 he would have been seriously injured of maybe dead. See the difference. Surely the point is that, in an aggressive (non-flat) turn, the wing was NOT over his head? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #11 August 1, 2011 Quote That's pretty obvious. But does that mean everybody has to jump large parachutes now? From the OP: "Just wanted to communicate an "incident" that I witnessed yesterday in the hope that it will help people with their decision making process." No one's suggesting you have to do anything. Just to throw another example on the pile ... last year I watched a jumper get clipped under canopy at about 150-200 feet. Top skin on a couple of cells (the ones right of the center cell, I believe) split open partially. The jumper didn't have a lot of time to do anything but continue on his final approach; he chose a half-flare PLF landing and walked away dirty but intact. Several things saved his ass (recognizing the problem immediately, not panicking, knowing not to do a full flare, and being able to execute an excellent PLF), but the biggest one, I think, was the fact that the canopy in question was a moderately loaded Spectre. If he was jumping something more aggressive or more highly-loaded, the outcome might have been very different. (Edited to add this is someone with close to 10,000 jumps and 30 years in the sport). I've got no problem with people choosing to jump higher-performance, higher-loaded parachutes, providing they have the experience, the skill, and the judgment to handle them in such a way that doesn't put me or other jumpers in additional danger. But I personally choose lower-performance and lower wingloading, and I've been very happy with that choice and the extra margin of safety it offers to me."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #12 August 2, 2011 >But does that mean everybody has to jump large parachutes now? ?? No. Only if you want to make your (eventual) mistake more survivable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CloudyHead 0 #13 August 2, 2011 damn i love this thread. its like the shoulder angel and shoulder devil. When i get a few hundred jumps which side will i take? I think I'd rather have all my "fun" in freefall where its safe at altitude, than to mess around doing high performance canopy maneuvers close to the ground. When i'm under 1000 feet, the fun can stop. It's time to take care of myself. screw swooping. A big 230 main for life sounds nice right about now. I like NWflyers philosophy. Hope i never change my mind though. lol. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #14 August 2, 2011 Quotedamn i love this thread. its like the shoulder angel and shoulder devil. When i get a few hundred jumps which side will i take? I think I'd rather have all my "fun" in freefall where its safe at altitude, than to mess around doing high performance canopy maneuvers close to the ground. When i'm under 1000 feet, the fun can stop. It's time to take care of myself. screw swooping. A big 230 main for life sounds nice right about now. I like NWflyers philosophy. Hope i never change my mind though. lol. You have a while to go before you have to make a decision on canopy size. The important thing is to move slowly, it is not a race to see who can down size the fastest. The one that wins that race usually looses in the end. There is nothing wrong with downsizing if it’s done at a reasonable pace and with adequate training. As NWFlyer said, small canopies are fine if the jumper has the experience, skill and judgment (read maturity) to do without creating a hazard to others. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rugby82 0 #15 August 2, 2011 QuoteQuoteThis isn't a benefit of low wingloading, it's pure luck. People have died doing this even with low wingloading. Luck had nothing to do with it. It was simple physics. The jumper hit the ground at a survivable speed because of the large canopy over his head. Had he been on a Crossfire 2 loaded at 1.8 he would have been seriously injured of maybe dead. See the difference. Sparky You will never hear me say that low windloading isn't safer than high wingloading and I will never argue with anyone about it because it's a fact that high wingloading kills easier. Surely, in this case, with high wingloading it probably would have been worse, although I've seen people walk away from big crashes under highly loaded canopies without a scratch (but that's really pure luck). In the case of dropping a toggle at the last moment, as stated here, both high- and low winloading can have devastating effects. I've seen this happen to both students and highly loaded canopies and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. Would he have done it maybe 20-30 ft higher the outcome could have been much worse. That's why I called it pure luck.Blue skies! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rigless 0 #16 August 2, 2011 Quote where its safe Safety and skydiving, this always makes me laugh hard inside When will people realize that if you truly want to be safe you should go bowling and even then you can have traumas P.S. I don't have anything against people who chose to do one over the other, it's your free choice, but again I'm not cool with the nazi rule enforcers "All limits are self imposed." Icarus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #17 August 2, 2011 Quoteagain I'm not cool with the nazi rule enforcers Goodwin's law. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law Quoteit's your free choice There is no free choice, every aspect of your life is regulated in some manner. The only reason you have a place to jump is because someone else provided it for you. If you don’t follow their rules you don’t jump. If you want everything to run your way you must provide your own sandbox. Ain’t life a bitch? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rigless 0 #18 August 2, 2011 Quote There is no free choice, every aspect of your life is regulated in some manner. The only reason you have a place to jump is because someone else provided it for you. If you don’t follow their rules you don’t jump. If you want everything to run your way you must provide your own sandbox. Ain’t life a bitch? I'm pretty aware of that, thank you. And I accept things that I cannot change. What I'm not really fond of is people who try to come up with more BS stuff because they think it's for the better.. "More evil gets done in the name of righteousness than any other way. Few villains think they are villains. - Glen Cook""All limits are self imposed." Icarus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rigless 0 #19 August 2, 2011 Quote >But does that mean everybody has to jump large parachutes now? ?? No. Only if you want to make your (eventual) mistake more survivable. So it means we DO have to jump large parachutes, because no matter what we will do a mistake and it will hurt, so we must never jump smaller ones.. What about those who accept the fact that they will do a mistake and it might hurt yet we still want the fun that a smaller canopy provides? "All limits are self imposed." Icarus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 144 #20 August 2, 2011 QuoteSo it means we DO have to jump large parachutes, because no matter what we will do a mistake and it will hurt, so we must never jump smaller ones.. What about those who accept the fact that they will do a mistake and it might hurt yet we still want the fun that a smaller canopy provides? I just want to give you some of my personal jumping life that may provide some context of where I am coming from. Early nineties - Club had T-10's for students, Cruiselites (F-111 220) were popular amongst the experienced jumpers in our club. There were a reasonable number of broken bones landing rounds but nothing serious. First fatality in my time was a <100 jump person who died without a good canopy. A couple of years later, a few jumpers had Stilleto's or equivalent. One of the most experienced jumpers did a low hook trying to swoop for a TV ad they were doing and broke a couple of bones. Another up-jumper had a landing accident and broke a number of bones. Both of these were on >150 canopies. A friend landed a canopy with a blown centre cell and broke his back. Club transitioned to Mantas 280's for students. First student fatality occurred when a women spiralled from altitude all the way in. First 115 arrived at our club. Jumper broke himself shortly afterwards. Jumper dies after mid-air collision with aircraft (around 2005) Jumper dies after hooking in a 135 (6 weeks after the other accident) Last month - up jumper dies on hp-landing. Past weekend, top swooper seriously injured on landing. These were all people that I had met and not just stories that I heard. I look at the transition from broken ankles under rounds to the point where a breaking a femur is starting to be "getting lucky" and question the wisdom. Over my 20 years I have seen equipment get safer, but the fatalities downward trend is starting to reverse. I wish you all the best in your jumping, clearly you have a greater acceptance of risk than I do and I hope that no harm comes to you.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #21 August 2, 2011 dayum, can you let us know where you jump? seems like an unsafe place to me!“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rigless 0 #22 August 2, 2011 Seems to me like you guys suck at CP... hard.. Where I jump, there's no crap like that and there's plenty of people who do stuff not according to the american rules.."All limits are self imposed." Icarus Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 144 #23 August 2, 2011 Quotedayum, can you let us know where you jump? seems like an unsafe place to me! That is 20 years of history and multiple dz's. I am sure it is low compared to people who have been constantly in the sport for that length of time.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #24 August 2, 2011 Quote Quote dayum, can you let us know where you jump? seems like an unsafe place to me! That is 20 years of history and multiple dz's. I am sure it is low compared to people who have been constantly in the sport for that length of time. sorry, meant to put a -smiley; it was meant as "tongue-in-cheek"-comment.. “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #25 August 2, 2011 Quotethere's plenty of people who do stuff not according to the american rules.. Probably an entire continent or two of them, eh?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
