SkymonkeyONE 3 #1 August 18, 2005 Katie and I both just watched, not two hours ago, a Military Freefall Parachutist land a downplane and walk away without injury. I simply could not believe it. Katie and her unit were running a unit proficiency jump on St. Mere Eglise dropzone out of a CASA 212 and there were a group of strap hangers from USAJFKSWC and other tennant units making a Hollywood (no equipment) pass. I just happened to be standing there visiting Katie at the family support group BBQ tent when they opened. It was either a low pull or a fairly-common AR2 AAD firing. Either way, the jumper was clearly seen just after opening with his reserve trailing behind him, still completely coccooned with the slider up at the stops. I was certain what it was right away, but it just trailed back there like a flag for a very long time without catching air. I did not see the jumper making any real effort to pull the reserve back in (at this point that would have been totally possible by the looks of it) and all was well until, of course, around 1000 feet. At that altitude the jumper made a pretty hard turn back around 180 degrees and the reserve caught air. It went directly to the downplane configuration without ever once attempting to fly up behind the main. At that point the guy had LOTS of time to simply cutaway the main and land uneventfully, but he, instead, opted to pull a lot of brakes and simply ride it in! His dutifull application of deep brakes kept him from slamming straight in. He hit the ground at around a 45 degree angle with the reserve flying nearly fully under him in what most CRW guys call the drag-plane configuration. He, amazingly, hit in a good PLF and was uninjured. This was due in great part to the 370 square foot main over his head. Once again, I could not believe this guy did not chop the main once the reserve was fully opened and turned downplane (at around 700 feet). Oddly, nobody even bothered to hurry over and check on him until he had been on the ground a bit. When I saw him up and walking I strolled over to the DZSO (who I know) and let him have it. As the jumper himself was up and walking, I went ahead and left. Katie might write more when she gets home if there was anything to add. The lesson here is that one of the very last options you want to take when you have two out and they downplane is to just ride it in when you have ample opportunity to do otherwise. This incident would have had a very, very different outcome under a sport main. Be safe and smart, Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
white_falcon 0 #2 August 18, 2005 All I can say is "DAM". Glad the jumper was un-injured, and I hope someone will talk to him/her about EP's. Scott Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #3 August 18, 2005 You might ask the jumper when (or if) he knew he had a two situation. I know of one downplane landing where the jumper had no idea that the reserve was out. It was a CYPRES fire at 800 ft. The main was out in front of the jumper, diving to the ground. The jumper did not know the reserve was out. The jumper did not cutaway because she knew she was very low. She couldn't figure out why the main was diving as it was. This jumper lived, but with a lot of broken bones. Since this accident, I've added in to my plans when things look bleak, a look-see check over my back to see if I can determine if the reserve is out. IOW, I do not think it is totally obvious to a jumper in the air that the reserve is out and in a downplane configuration with the main. It's obvious to people on the ground. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #4 August 19, 2005 Pretty freakin' wild! Yep, I can see that he might have survived a drag-plane, but a diving down-plane seemed unsurvivable. He should go buy a lottery ticket. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #5 August 19, 2005 I've seen two jumpers land solo downplanes and walk away after catching their breath. Both involved large, student type parachutes. I think that, more than luck or divine intervention, is the key to surviving that. I'm glad that guy is okay. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #6 August 19, 2005 what's that phrase... "If you're gonna be dumb you better be tough". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #7 August 19, 2005 QuoteI do not think it is totally obvious to a jumper in the air that the reserve is out and in a downplane configuration with the main. It's obvious to people on the ground. It OUGHT TO BE OBVIOUS! ... Of course, 'the mind narrows a bit' in high stress situations like this one, but 'your main starts diving for no apparent reason and is now in front of you in stead of above - what do you think has happened?' should be part of ANY first jump course where students jump with AAD's... If the student doesn't react because he doesn't remember that part of the training it is understandable, but it could be argued that 'more training prior to the jump' is needed. If he doesn't react because nobody told him about this possibility?... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sebazz1 2 #8 August 19, 2005 Oh you probably just saw Bob. He is in training for the Golden Knights for the new nationals competition "Two out no-flare competition" Sounds like he was flaring though from your post... That would have knocked a lot of points off of his score. Definately not medal worthy.... Good to see he walked away. What was the ground like that he landed on? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skytash 0 #9 August 21, 2005 Quoteshould be part of ANY first jump course where students jump with AAD's... If the student doesn't react because he doesn't remember that part of the training it is understandable, but it could be argued that 'more training prior to the jump' is needed. If he doesn't react because nobody told him about this possibility?... I sort of agree with you, it would be good if every eventuality had been covered in the FJC. However, I wonder whether it could lead to information overload? I often wonder how much of the stuff people are taught in their FJC actually is in a 'readily accessible' place in their mind when they actually jump. I had a malfunction as a student I had never heard about, went back to basics 'is it big, square and controllable', did control checks and decided to cut away. I think we should put more stress on this element than try to talk about all possible eventualities. Doing a 'big square controllable' check should help identify why the main is diving and positioned further forward. tashDon't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #10 August 21, 2005 QuoteI wonder whether it could lead to information overload? In this day and age? QuoteI often wonder how much of the stuff people are taught in their FJC actually is in a 'readily accessible' place in their mind when they actually jump. Very little, I'm afraid... But in a First Jump Course the instructor should be able to use both "bold" and "italics" When you jump with AAD's you should receive this information - chances are you might react upon it whereas if you have never been told you wouldn't know what had happened which makes it all the more difficult to decide on a course of action... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #11 August 23, 2005 i knew someone who had a cypres fire and a two out situation... he didn't even notice that he had two out, as the reserve was in a biplane trailing him. he cracked his femur on landing. needless to say hes not jumping anymore. MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RossDagley 0 #12 August 23, 2005 Quotei knew someone who had a cypres fire and a two out situation... he didn't even notice that he had two out, as the reserve was in a biplane trailing him. he cracked his femur on landing. needless to say hes not jumping anymore. Wow. I always thought I'd notice 200 odd sq/ft of additional cloth behind me when I look before turning a 180 or whatever... Would/Could you *really* simply not notice? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Speer 0 #13 September 9, 2005 Quotemore than luck or divine intervention Having been in & out of nasty, hot, trying circumstances... I'll never discount the divine intervention thing! I agree that having forgiving equipment (apparently in this case the big FC 370) is always in the plus column, sometimes the Big Guy just has further plans for you down the line... In any case, not relying on "Divine Intervention", electronic devices, or any other gizmos should never take precedence over following the "plan". If the trooper in question was experienced, and just taking part in a hollywood jump, he should be shaken like a rag doll to get the cobwebs out. Ain't it the truth?... Mr Murphy has the best shot at you when you think it's an easy score... Russ Generally, it is your choice; will your life serve as an example... or a warning? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jose9878 0 #14 September 13, 2005 http://media.putfile.com/iCRW Here's an example from the Dual Square Deployment Testing done by the Knights in the early 90's. Looks like what you are describing at the beginning of the thread. I can't remember the size of the canopies but they were big & I weighed 160 at the time. This reserve trailed behind me for a long time, even through turns. It wouldn't open so I yanked the lines causing it to catch air. When the reserve finally opened they usually went into a 2-stack or side by side, which I landed. One of the ten jumps went into an unintentional downplane, I cutaway the main on that jump. -JP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Witelli 0 #15 September 14, 2005 QuoteIf the student doesn't react because he doesn't remember that part of the training it is understandable, but it could be argued that 'more training prior to the jump' is needed. If he doesn't react because nobody told him about this possibility?... Being the lowtimer on this thread, I have to admit the training can cause memory overload. So I read the SIM on EP's with 2 out mals. Anyway, on a student rig it doesn't even matter, you have an RSL and I think if you pull silver only, it will release main anyway. Although they won't tell you that. So either way you shouldn't ever have a 2 out mal with these student rigs. Am I correct? Either way I'm always thinking and trying to learn how to deal as if I didn't have these extra devices. I'm not trying to hijack, I just thought maybe things aren't stressed enough because they can't really happen on student rigs, or can they? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #16 September 14, 2005 NOOOO!!! Please go discuss this with your instructors immediately before your next jump!!!NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #17 September 14, 2005 QuoteAnyway, on a student rig it doesn't even matter, you have an RSL and I think if you pull silver only, it will release main anyway. Although they won't tell you that. [rant mode on] I urgently suggest you discuss this with your instructor(s) for - from what I gather here - you are jumping while believing in a few misconceptions about your equipment. As long as all goes well you might get away with that, but if it doesn't, your lack of knowledge might bite you... PLEASE do not try to educate yourself on the BASICS of how the 'parachute system' works through the internet but have it explained to you AGAIN by someone (a rigger preferably) who knows what he's talking about in a hangar with a student parachute system at hand. They are NOT always and everywhere constructed in the same manner so while what you say ('pull silver and the main disappears anyway') might be true with some systems, it might be false on other systems... And don't nod sheepishly saying that you understand when in fact you don't ASK THINK ASK AGAIN THINK AGAIN [/rant mode off] "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #18 September 14, 2005 QuoteQuoteIf the student doesn't react because he doesn't remember that part of the training it is understandable, but it could be argued that 'more training prior to the jump' is needed. If he doesn't react because nobody told him about this possibility?... Being the lowtimer on this thread, I have to admit the training can cause memory overload. So I read the SIM on EP's with 2 out mals. Anyway, on a student rig it doesn't even matter, you have an RSL and I think if you pull silver only, it will release main anyway. Although they won't tell you that. So either way you shouldn't ever have a 2 out mal with these student rigs. Am I correct? Either way I'm always thinking and trying to learn how to deal as if I didn't have these extra devices. I'm not trying to hijack, I just thought maybe things aren't stressed enough because they can't really happen on student rigs, or can they? Riiiight.... So my 2 out with student gear was something I imagined?!?! Like the above posts suggest, go talk with your instructors/rigger, please... ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Witelli 0 #19 September 14, 2005 Wow, everybody calm down. I was taught emergency procedures and understand them. I know how to react to 2 out mals as well as high speed mals, at least I think I do, unless I missed something. Now I'm concerned. You're making it sound like EP's change with the equipment. I will definitely talk with my instructor now, I just would like some input on one question so I can bring back to him what I have heard. How does "grab red, grab silver, pull red pull silver change with student vs. normal rigs? I thought it was the same procedure. Which brings me back to my first question, I just don't see how you can have a 2 out mal if every handle on the student rigs I've mentioned cut away. Unless the Cypres fires or the reserve falls out on it's own. I never said I would rely on these gizmos or skip a step in my EP's because I had some student safety device on my rig. Am I really far off? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Witelli 0 #20 September 14, 2005 QuoteRiiiight.... So my 2 out with student gear was something I imagined?!?! But how did it happen? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NtheSeaOrSky 0 #21 September 14, 2005 My two out happened secondary to pretty good line twists that twisted the risers and trapped the RSL line resulting in the RSL deploying the reserve. Pretty rare coincidence, probably, but nevertheless sometimes shit happensLife is not fair and there are no guarantees... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #22 September 14, 2005 QuoteQuoteRiiiight.... So my 2 out with student gear was something I imagined?!?! But how did it happen? I pulled too low, I pulled at 2500ft, and the rig had a FXC. In case you don't know, with an FXC2000 you're supposed to pull at least 1500 ft higher than the firing alti, which was set at 1000ft. This apperantly was cutting it too close... Result: 2 out, they flew in a biplane configuration untill 1000ft when I got my very own personal downplane which I promptly chopped. CRW downplanes are fun, personal downplanes NOT! ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #23 September 14, 2005 QuoteUnless the Cypres fires or the reserve falls out on it's own. um... that's the point - that is the way you get a 2-out problem. It's generally when someone deploys their main at the same time as their cypres deploys their reserve. Thus you have two canopies opening at the same time / nearly the same time. It is perfectly possible to have a 2-out on student gear if not easier in some ways. You really need to address this with your instructors before your next jump. edit: I see you've edited out your response. Seriously, the only reason you've seen such a vocal response is you don't just seem have the wrong end of the stick; you appear to have someone elses stick... in fact it's not a stick at all, its a ball. People are concerned for you, that's all mate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #24 September 14, 2005 QuoteI was taught emergency procedures and understand them. Apperantly not: Quote I just don't see how you can have a 2 out mal if every handle on the student rigs I've mentioned cut away. That's because they DO NOT. Only the pillow on your right side does that! THAT's what everybody is concerned about. Quote You're making it sound like EP's change with the equipment. Usually not, but there ARE rigs equipped with something called an SOS system, usually used for students only. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Witelli 0 #25 September 14, 2005 QuoteApperantly not: Then what am I missing? Help me out here. QuoteI just don't see how you can have a 2 out mal if every handle on the student rigs I've mentioned cut away. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's because they DO NOT. Only the pillow on your right side does that! THAT's what everybody is concerned about. So when I asked my instructor "What is the purpose of this cable" and he told me "that's connected to your silver handle and will cutaway the main in the event a student goes right to silver, it's only on some student rigs." Then he stressed to practice the EP's I was taught and not to think about this feature that's on only some student rigs. So you mean to tell me he made that whole thing up!?!?!?! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
