airtwardo 7 #276 November 30, 2011 Quote Nope. Ron. you just keep spouting the same irrelevant old fart stuff and dodge the issue entirely. What were we talking about again? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rstanley0312 1 #277 November 30, 2011 Quote Quote Nope. Ron. you just keep spouting the same irrelevant old fart stuff and dodge the issue entirely. What were we talking about again? Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it. Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000 www.fundraiseadventure.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #278 November 30, 2011 Quote Quote Nope. Ron. you just keep spouting the same irrelevant old fart stuff and dodge the issue entirely. What were we talking about again? "Why I think skydiving is too hard and I want it to be easier for me earn/win/buy/deserve the biggest license/rating/cool dude/former expert/master status there is" alternatively titled "What I did over winer vacation." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #279 November 30, 2011 QuoteI'm impressed at everyone's staying power here but it's getting pretty ridiculous. Benefits of a night jump: - Requires more focus and training to complete successfully - that's a good thing - It's really fun - It's an interesting challenge that allows people to break the mold and learn something - Learn more about FAA requirements as they intersect with skydiving Advantages of having said night jumps associated with attaining a D license (but any license): - All of the above but allows someone who has achieved the highest regular license to understand possibilities - Makes people work at getting their D, otherwise it's just a checkbox next to "has 500 jumps/6 hours air time" Disadvantages: - No clearly useful defined criteria for success except "hey, you didn't die" - Other than "expert" designation, no clear reason it's associated with a D license and not any other (I'd guess it's safer to put this requirement on a D than say a B license because you'd hope someone would have developed some judgement by then) - Potential for injury Several people in this thread who've done night jumps have stated very clearly that they've been on regular loads where, by the time they were given the go ahead to jump, they were left with the choice to make a night jump (possibly without meeting FAA lighting requirements) or land with a plane that they feel is more risky. They tell you that it's the same but you disagree and see that as a reason to dismiss that outright I'm not sure why. You don't have to get a D license if you don't want to. If you do want a D then you can get a waiver if you don't want to do the night jumps for safety reasons. To me there seems to be a lot of reasons why people feel that night jumps being a requirement for the D license is useful. The contention against is that night jumps have no value and that seems to be the core of the issue. I think they have value, I've done several including New Years jumps into ZHills a couple of years ago. Excellent experience. Going through the training, the pre sunset/twilight training jump was actually useful and taught me things. You can say you don't think it's useful but just outright denying other people's opinions but holding your own to be immutable is pretty myopic. Not bad but you misconstrued a couple of major key points. a) There is little to no contention about night jumps being useful and having value. It' nearly unanimous that that they are for those who want to do night jumps. b) Having the night jumps associated with the D has nothing to do with fun, focus, FAA c) does NOT make people work toward getting the D. In fact, it discourages them because of the unnecessary night jump requirement. d) no "expert" associated with D e) exiting a plane voluntarily under any circumstances is one thing. 'Accidently" exiting is quite another f) awards and ratings unnecessarily depend on having a D g) "outright denying other people's opinions but holding your own to be immutable is pretty myopic. " Well, you got that right. h) given USPA's own reasoning, they may have placed night jump training in the wrong place of the license progression. The OP's question was answered early and easily. The thread then evolved into an attempted discussion of license requirement. The whole discussion simply asks: Shouldn't training and license requirements be reviewed and possibly changed for relevancy? Have you taken note of who and how many are regurgitating the same old-school drivel while avoiding that question?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #280 November 30, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Nope. Ron. you just keep spouting the same irrelevant old fart stuff and dodge the issue entirely. What were we talking about again? "Why I think skydiving is too hard and I want it to be easier for me earn/win/buy/deserve the biggest license/rating/cool dude/former expert/master status there is" alternatively titled "What I did over winter vacation." Then why all the dick measuring? I already have one of the highest awards there possibly is in the sport....three & a half decades of continuous participation without any injuries. Ya earn THAT one by playin' smart not hard and saving what's in the luck bucket for when ya really might need it! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #281 November 30, 2011 Quote "Why I think skydiving is too hard and I want it to be easier for me earn/win/buy/deserve the biggest license/rating/cool dude/former expert/master status there is" alternatively titled "What I did over winer vacation." Funny you should mention that...I was just now talking about old-school drivel and forgot to mention the "I'm so great and you're a wimp" mentality that often goes with it. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #282 November 30, 2011 Have you taken note of who and how many are regurgitating the same old-school drivel while avoiding that question? Quote No but if ya point 'em out we can go out back kick their asses! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #283 November 30, 2011 Quote I already have one of the highest awards there possibly is in the sport....three & a half decades of continuous participation without any injuries. Ya earn THAT one by plain' smart not hard and saving what's in the luck bucket for when ya really might need it! Ironically, you could have done all that without a license of any sort from USPA.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 99 #284 November 30, 2011 Quote spouting old fart stuff and dodge That's nasty, and then to dodge/get out of the way of it is really rude! People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #285 November 30, 2011 QuoteNope. Ron. you just keep spouting the same irrelevant old fart stuff and dodge the issue entirely. There you go again...... None as so blind as those that refuse to see. I am done wasting my time with such a closed minded person. We listened to YOUR views, you IGNORED ours."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildcard451 0 #286 November 30, 2011 Because it is fucking awesome. /argument over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #287 November 30, 2011 Quote I am done wasting my time with such a closed minded person. We listened to YOUR views, you IGNORED ours. Fine, Ron. Have it your way. We were talking about updates to USPA licensing and you have nothing to offer except, "no, let's not consider that."My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #288 November 30, 2011 Quote Quote spouting old fart stuff and dodge That's nasty, and then to dodge/get out of the way of it is really rude! THAT'S the real reason for bailing out at night or anytime...old-fart farts and no place to dodge except out the door. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #289 November 30, 2011 QuoteWe were talking about updates to USPA licensing and you have nothing to offer except, "no, let's not consider that." See, that comment just proves you have not paid any attention to anything but what you wanted to hear. See post #2 of this thread http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=4229723;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25; But again, this just proves you don't care to DISCUSS anything, just preach AT people."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #290 November 30, 2011 Ok....you win.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,853 #291 November 30, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Nope. Ron. you just keep spouting the same irrelevant old fart stuff and dodge the issue entirely. What were we talking about again? "Why I think skydiving is too hard and I want it to be easier for me earn/win/buy/deserve the biggest license/rating/cool dude/former expert/master status there is" alternatively titled "What I did over winer vacation." Some of us HAVE "D" Licenses and still think the night jump requirement is not justifiable by any sort of logical analysis of the purpose of the license. In fact, I no longer think the "D" has much purpose at all beyond being a merit badge with some arbitrary criteria attached.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #292 November 30, 2011 I have a D license and think the experience and Knowledge I gained when doing the night jumps, was a benefit. BUT, I agree the current definition of the Licenses and how they are used makes the whole process suspect. The Licenses should go back to "Licensing" one to "Do" some thing besides just jump. Maybe the various ratings should be a PART of the license qualifications? MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fastphil 0 #293 November 30, 2011 The importance and relevancy of the “D” is all in the perception, needs and requirements of current members of USPA, not with some strict definition of the term “license”. Night jumps are an historical and traditional part of the sport, rewarding to accomplish and a good method to sharpen organizational and performance skills. Like them or not, they are part of your sport. The number one reason I ever had for making a night jump was the NWSCR, the women just seemed at their best after dark. I stole this pic from Wendy, that’s me lurking ninth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #294 November 30, 2011 QuoteThe Licenses should go back to "Licensing" one to "Do" some thing besides just jump. Maybe the various ratings should be a PART of the license qualifications? The "D" USED to be required to be an "I". They changed that after they moved C and D"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,853 #295 November 30, 2011 QuoteThe importance and relevancy of the “D” is all in the perception, needs and requirements of current members of USPA, not with some strict definition of the term “license”. Night jumps are an historical and traditional part of the sport, rewarding to accomplish and a good method to sharpen organizational and performance skills. Like them or not, they are part of your sport. . So the "D" is just an historical relic rather than an actual license. I don't see that it meets any need of the current members besides being something to put on your DZ.COM profile.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #296 November 30, 2011 QuoteQuoteThe importance and relevancy of the “D” is all in the perception, needs and requirements of current members of USPA, not with some strict definition of the term “license”. Night jumps are an historical and traditional part of the sport, rewarding to accomplish and a good method to sharpen organizational and performance skills. Like them or not, they are part of your sport. . So the "D" is just an historical relic rather than an actual license. I don't see that it meets any need of the current members besides being something to put on your DZ.COM profile. Outside of a PRO rating and becoming a TI, you're correct, and I can't find fault with many points of your argument in terms of "license." With that in mind: Do you propose the USPA should spend the money to restructure? Should they cease calling the D cards "licenses" as they don't permit one to do anything more than an A anyway? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3mpire 0 #297 December 1, 2011 QuoteNot bad but you misconstrued a couple of major key points. a) There is little to no contention about night jumps being useful and having value. It' nearly unanimous that that they are for those who want to do night jumps. That is only true if you believe that a night jump is a literal thing that bears no resemblance to any other kind of dive that you do. That somehow being cognizant of risk factors in a sky dive has absolutely NO benefit in anything other than a night dive. What is it about a night skydive that makes any lessons you learn not work in the daytime? Does sunlight make the brain work differently? The real discussion seems to be a disagreement of whether a night jump is a unique flower that has absolutely no meaning outside of a night jump, or whether it is an implementation of a collection of skills that have applicability to any skydive, regardless of the context. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Croc 0 #298 December 1, 2011 Here in Indiana, night jumps are hard to come by. Since they are a requirement for a D license, USPA member dropzones ought to be required to have them at least once a year. I bet that would piss off a lot of DZ owners!"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so." Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #299 December 1, 2011 Quote Here in Indiana, night jumps are hard to come by. Since they are a requirement for a D license, USPA member dropzones ought to be required to have them at least once a year. I bet that would piss off a lot of DZ owners! There was one dz not long ago that said they couldn't put a night load up because none of their pilots were certified for flying jumpers at night. Guess those 3 take offs and landings constitue a certification now! "I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,481 #300 December 1, 2011 Quote Quote Here in Indiana, night jumps are hard to come by. Since they are a requirement for a D license, USPA member dropzones ought to be required to have them at least once a year. I bet that would piss off a lot of DZ owners! There was one dz not long ago that said they couldn't put a night load up because none of their pilots were certified for flying jumpers at night. Guess those 3 take offs and landings constitue a certification now! A pilot who holds a commercial without an instument rating is limited to daylight only for commercial operations. http://www.flightsimaviation.com/data/FARS/part_61-133.html Look under (B)Limitations (1). 50 mile limit for cross country flights too."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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