popsjumper 2 #201 November 28, 2011 Quote Same thing...if you want a 'normal unrestricted'' D license you do the requirements. OK, Jim...just to be clear and pull out the important stuff from all the fluff... You are opposed to the idea of putting the night jump training in a different order with respect to license requirements and want to keep it a D-license?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #202 November 28, 2011 Quote>>It's happened to me. >Irrelevant . . . You can call it whatever you like. It has indeed happened to me and to a great many other people. Thus the claim that "there is no way you can be on hold long enough that jumpers would be exiting even close to night conditions" is false. And when it did happen to me I was glad I had gotten night jump training. And all those with only A, B and C licenses rode the plane down, right, because that is always an option.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #203 November 28, 2011 Quote A D license means you are an expert skydiver. Ummmmm...we tend to disagree on that. In fact, we are diametrically opposed.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #204 November 28, 2011 Quote I have to say... that night jumps are always special to me... there is nothing quite like that feeling of freefall in the dark.. with distant lights on the ground.... cities on the horizon.... and seeing the moon like you are not used to seeing it Now I've really got the Jones for a night jump." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #205 November 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteWell, if it were an award or a boy scout merit badge, I'd agree with you. However, it isn't. It's a LICENSE. Different thing altogether. Parallel parking is required to get a drivers license in most States. It is also something that I have rarely had to do, it is also something that can be avoided in most cases.... I guess we can just remove that as well right? I have a pilots license... You know the ONLY time I have flown at night? Yep, to meet the requirements to get my LICENSE. It is more dangerous than flying during the day, and flying at night can pretty much easily be avoided. You going to claim that night flying should be removed from the pilot training curriculum? The parallel parking from the drivers license? The drivers LICENSE is not an award. The pilots LICENSE is not an award. The "D" LICENSE is not an award. If you crashed the plane during your night requirements for a pilot license, you wouldn't pass. If you rammed the car behind during parallel parking, you wouldn't pass. If you land in a tree or break both femurs on your night jumps, you still satisfy the requirement for a "D". The probability of an unavoidable, "accidental" night jump is zero. The requirement is irrelevant to the safety issues of modern skydiving.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #206 November 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteothers are being penalized for a requirement that has no bearing on how skilled or experienced they are. It is not a "penalty" to require a night jump to be licensed as an expert parachutist. It is not a "penalty" to require knowledge of blood to be licensed as a physician. It is not a "penalty" to require good health to be licensed as an airline pilot. It is not a "penalty" to require college degrees to be licensed as university professors. There is no such thing as a university professor license. It's not about penalizing people who haven't done it, it's about ensuring that those who are deemed experts have a wide variety of experiences and skills, necessary to perform the duties expected of them. Why night jumps, rather than CRW or bigway or VRW or wingsuit experience for said "expert"? (I dispute that "expert" adjective anyway). And what "duties" ere expected?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #207 November 28, 2011 Quote Quote Same thing...if you want a 'normal unrestricted'' D license you do the requirements. OK, Jim...just to be clear and pull out the important stuff from all the fluff... You are opposed to the idea of putting the night jump training in a different order with respect to license requirements and want to keep it a D-license? No not at all Andy, The earlier the better...within reason that is.It's my understanding that there is a faction wanting to do away with the requirement altogether...that IMO would be a mistake. It's been a requirement for as long as I've been jumping, I seriously don't recall any of the types of incidents Dr. Kallend describes regarding negative outcomes of the training or performance of said requirements. With the number of D license holders and the glaring lack of incident reports naming night operation as a contributing factor I think his argument is much to do about nothing. At what point do YOU think it would be appropriate? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #208 November 28, 2011 QuoteQuote Same thing...if you want a 'normal unrestricted'' D license you do the requirements. OK, Jim...just to be clear and pull out the important stuff from all the fluff... You are opposed to the idea of putting the night jump training in a different order with respect to license requirements and want to keep it a D-license? If you asked me (I know you didn't) I would put them in the B area, as well as a Live Water jump AFTER pool training. My water jumps in Panama, have helped me not be AS concerned when exiting over water or crossing large bodies of water under canopy. My Night Jump Training, and Night Jumps, has done the same for when I was put on hold over Warren Country and exited in very dark condition 25 minutes after sunset (we had to hold for some heavies from Wright Pat and a Life Flight), I felt more confident in my ability to land in the dark as well as see and fly safer. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #209 November 28, 2011 QuoteIf you crashed the plane during your night requirements for a pilot license, you wouldn't pass I had an instructor with me to prevent me from crashing. Yet, after certification I was allowed to fly solo. QuoteIf you rammed the car behind during parallel parking, you wouldn't pass. If you land in a tree or break both femurs on your night jumps, you still satisfy the requirement for a "D". Way to avoid the point. Also, some Counties do not require parallel parking, yet you can do it once you get your license. QuoteThe probability of an unavoidable, "accidental" night jump is zero. Many people have stated that claim is false. The probability of an "Accidental" night flight, using your terms, is also zero. So why is it required for a pilots license and yet should not be for a "D"?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #210 November 28, 2011 Quote My Night Jump Training, and Night Jumps, has done the same for when I was put on hold over Warren Country and exited in very dark condition 25 minutes after sunset (we had to hold for some heavies from Wright Pat and a Life Flight), I felt more confident in my ability to land in the dark as well as see and fly safer. Matt FAR Sec. 105.19 Parachute operations between sunset and sunrise (a) No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a person to conduct a parachute operation from an aircraft between sunset and sunrise, unless the person or object descending from the aircraft displays a light that is visible for at least 3 statute miles. (b) The light required by paragraph (a) of this section must be displayed from the time that the person or object is under a properly functioning open parachute until that person or object reaches the surface. I hope you had your light with you on this accidental night jump.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #211 November 28, 2011 Quote QuoteThe probability of an unavoidable, "accidental" night jump is zero. Many people have stated that claim is false. The probability of an "Accidental" night flight, using your terms, is also zero. So why is it required for a pilots license and yet should not be for a "D"? Incorrect: no-one forces you or anyone else to exit the plane. There is NO competency requirement for the night jump. There is a competency requirement for the night flying. 2 night jumps with no criterion for success except living to tell the tale does not make anyone an expert in night jumping. Also, any jump after sunset and before sunrise without a light is illegal in the USA. How many people take lights on their sunset loads? Do you?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #212 November 28, 2011 QuoteIncorrect: no-one forces you or anyone else to exit the plane. True, but at 14k feet it looks a lot brighter than at the ground.... Lots of people don't know that. QuoteThere is NO competency requirement for the night jump False. You have to have a "B" and you have to get a briefing. You have to do a solo before you can do RW. You need two to get the "D" LICENSE. QuoteThere is a competency requirement for the night flying. Again false. 3 hrs duel of instruction to get the LICENSE. And to perform at night you have to have made 3 landings in the previous 90 days to take pax. So, fail to do both night jumps or fail to get the three hours of duel and you cannot get the LICENSE you want. You can settle for a sport license or a "C". Quote2 night jumps with no criterion for success except living to tell the tale does not make anyone an expert in night jumping. 3 Hours of duel at night does not make anyone an expert at flying at night.... Still, it is better than zero experience. And still, it is required for the LICENSE. QuoteAlso, any jump after sunset and before sunrise without a light is illegal in the USA. How many people take lights on their sunset loads? Do you? "Sunset" is *LEGALLY* the end of of evening civil twilight when the geometric center of the sun reaches 6° below the horizon. Hard to measure, even harder to measure when the angle is different at 14k and at the ground. Do I take lights on sunset jumps? No, but I also tend to not take students or even go on those jumps anyway. If I had my way, you would need a "D" to get on those jumps (proving you have made jumps in low light conditions)."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 144 #213 November 28, 2011 Kallend, What are your views on the D license requirements? It doesn't look like anybody believes in the current requirements. Some would like to see more requirements and others less. As an aside the sunset load is an interesting topic.It seems that training is half the story, having the necessary equipment is the other half. There was the canopy collision fatality (Crosskeys?) a few months ago. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4125381;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread. This thread covered some discussion on what sunset mean't.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #214 November 28, 2011 QuoteQuote My Night Jump Training, and Night Jumps, has done the same for when I was put on hold over Warren Country and exited in very dark condition 25 minutes after sunset (we had to hold for some heavies from Wright Pat and a Life Flight), I felt more confident in my ability to land in the dark as well as see and fly safer. Matt FAR Sec. 105.19 Parachute operations between sunset and sunrise (a) No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a person to conduct a parachute operation from an aircraft between sunset and sunrise, unless the person or object descending from the aircraft displays a light that is visible for at least 3 statute miles. (b) The light required by paragraph (a) of this section must be displayed from the time that the person or object is under a properly functioning open parachute until that person or object reaches the surface. I hope you had your light with you on this accidental night jump. I had more lighting on than others, it is a matter of opinion on if it was totally visible at 3 miles, I am sure. But since you brought it up, it would mean EVERY jump made At or After official sunset is ... illegal, if not wearing lights per FAR. But that would be OFF TOPIC for this thread and should be discussed in a different thread like Paid Packing. and Medicals for T-I's. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #215 November 28, 2011 QuoteKallend, What are your views on the D license requirements? It doesn't look like anybody believes in the current requirements. Some would like to see more requirements and others less. As an aside the sunset load is an interesting topic.It seems that training is half the story, having the necessary equipment is the other half. There was the canopy collision fatality (Crosskeys?) a few months ago. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4125381;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread. This thread covered some discussion on what sunset mean't. LICENSE requirements should be tailored to the specific privileges granted by the license, and should be periodically reviewed to ensure that they are relevant in a continually changing environment. "Because that's the way we've always done it" is not a good reason for anything.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #216 November 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote My Night Jump Training, and Night Jumps, has done the same for when I was put on hold over Warren Country and exited in very dark condition 25 minutes after sunset (we had to hold for some heavies from Wright Pat and a Life Flight), I felt more confident in my ability to land in the dark as well as see and fly safer. Matt FAR Sec. 105.19 Parachute operations between sunset and sunrise (a) No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a person to conduct a parachute operation from an aircraft between sunset and sunrise, unless the person or object descending from the aircraft displays a light that is visible for at least 3 statute miles. (b) The light required by paragraph (a) of this section must be displayed from the time that the person or object is under a properly functioning open parachute until that person or object reaches the surface. I hope you had your light with you on this accidental night jump. I had more lighting on than others, it is a matter of opinion on if it was totally visible at 3 miles, I am sure. But since you brought it up, it would mean EVERY jump made At or After official sunset is ... illegal, if not wearing lights per FAR. But that would be OFF TOPIC for this thread Matt I don't think it is. If the ostensible reason for a night jump requirement is the *possibility* of an *accidental* night jump, then the condition for being allowed on a sunset load should be that the jumper has a "D" license and FAA legal lights with them, just in case said *accidental* situation should occur and for some strange reason the jumper is forced to exit the plane instead of riding it down. IMO the scenario is far-fetched, but that would be the logical conclusion to be reached when that reasoning is used to justify the night jump requirement for a "D".... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cocheese 0 #217 November 28, 2011 Why is anyone really worried about any of this anyway? I think the orginal poster has enough answers to his question. Jump at night if want, and don't jump at night if you don't want to. If anyone needs a D, jump at night or tell someone you did. It's not like the cops are going to bust you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danornan 64 #218 November 28, 2011 I tend to agree with John and the others that feel that making a night jump a requirement of the D license is wrong and not necessary. Very few people have to jump at night. It is generally an option. I have made several and enjoyed the majority of them, but that does not make me a believer that the requirement is necessary. Think about everything that can go wrong on a jump and then imagine it at night. A simple malfunction becomes much worse. A cutaway at night can be horrible. Forcing the requirement for a D license is putting a skydiver in an unnecessary and a dangerous position for a situation that may never occur. I am in agreement with the other requirements for a D license, just not this one.Dano Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #219 November 28, 2011 QuoteI tend to agree with John and the others that feel that making a night jumpwater entry, landing downwind, landing half-brakes, cutaway (for TI), rear-riser landing a requirement of the D license is wrong and not necessary. Very few people have to jump at night. It is generally an option. I have made several and enjoyed the majority of them, but that does not make me a believer that the requirement is necessary. Think about everything that can go wrong on a jump and then imagine it at night. A simple malfunction becomes much worse. A cutaway at night can be horrible. Forcing the requirement for a D license is putting a skydiver in an unnecessary and a dangerous position for a situation that may never occur. I am in agreement with the other requirements for a D license, just not this one. FIFY What "other" requirements for a D license other than night jumps (ritten exam aside)? Adding a few requirements might be a good thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #220 November 28, 2011 Quote QuoteThere is NO competency requirement for the night jump False. You have to have a "B" and you have to get a briefing. You have to do a solo before you can do RW. You need two to get the "D" LICENSE.. How does having a "B" and a briefing prove competency in night jumps? Even surviving just 2 of them does not prove competency. You can break a femur and still satisfy the requirement. The requirement is both without logical justification AND is poorly implemented.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danornan 64 #221 November 28, 2011 Don't know what FIFU means, but I think that everything in RED should be a license requirement. They can and do happen and skydivers should not be afraid of them. In particular, a downwind landing. People have died because they were afraid to make a downwind landing. QuoteQuoteI tend to agree with John and the others that feel that making a night jumpwater entry, landing downwind, landing half-brakes, cutaway (for TI), rear-riser landing a requirement of the D license is wrong and not necessary. Very few people have to jump at night. It is generally an option. I have made several and enjoyed the majority of them, but that does not make me a believer that the requirement is necessary. Think about everything that can go wrong on a jump and then imagine it at night. A simple malfunction becomes much worse. A cutaway at night can be horrible. Forcing the requirement for a D license is putting a skydiver in an unnecessary and a dangerous position for a situation that may never occur. I am in agreement with the other requirements for a D license, just not this one. FIFY What "other" requirements for a D license other than night jumps (ritten exam aside)? Adding a few requirements might be a good thing.Dano Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #222 November 28, 2011 >And all those with only A, B and C licenses rode the plane down, right, because >that is always an option. Yes, it is. Is it safer? Sometimes. Sometimes it is safer to get out. When trying to decide whether or not it is safer to exit an aircraft at night or land with the plane on an unlit runway, the experience of having done a night jump is very, very valuable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #223 November 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteI tend to agree with John and the others that feel that making a night jumpwater entry, landing downwind, landing half-brakes, cutaway (for TI), rear-riser landing a requirement of the D license is wrong and not necessary. Very few people have to jump at night. It is generally an option. I have made several and enjoyed the majority of them, but that does not make me a believer that the requirement is necessary. Think about everything that can go wrong on a jump and then imagine it at night. A simple malfunction becomes much worse. A cutaway at night can be horrible. Forcing the requirement for a D license is putting a skydiver in an unnecessary and a dangerous position for a situation that may never occur. I am in agreement with the other requirements for a D license, just not this one. FIFY What "other" requirements for a D license other than night jumps (ritten exam aside)? Adding a few requirements might be a good thing. Well, none of the things you wrote in red are requirements, but all are more likely than an *accidental* night jump.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #224 November 28, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteI tend to agree with John and the others that feel that making a night jumpwater entry, landing downwind, landing half-brakes, cutaway (for TI), rear-riser landing a requirement of the D license is wrong and not necessary. Very few people have to jump at night. It is generally an option. I have made several and enjoyed the majority of them, but that does not make me a believer that the requirement is necessary. Think about everything that can go wrong on a jump and then imagine it at night. A simple malfunction becomes much worse. A cutaway at night can be horrible. Forcing the requirement for a D license is putting a skydiver in an unnecessary and a dangerous position for a situation that may never occur. I am in agreement with the other requirements for a D license, just not this one. FIFY What "other" requirements for a D license other than night jumps (ritten exam aside)? Adding a few requirements might be a good thing. Well, none of the things you wrote in red are requirements, but all are more likely than an *accidental* night jump. With the newly required Canopy Proficiency Card, they are indeed *requirements.* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #225 November 28, 2011 QuoteHow does having a "B" and a briefing prove competency in night jumps? How does three hours of duel at night prove competency at flying solo at night? QuoteEven surviving just 2 of them does not prove competency. You can break a femur and still satisfy the requirement. The requirement is both without logical justification AND is poorly implemented. How is three hours of duel training (with no other objectives) enough to certify someone to get a pilots LICENSE and allow them to fly SOLO at night?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
