Inappropriate student canopies for lightweight people.

[Trae 1]

I've noticed a bit of an increase in the lightweights (students and novices ) being given canopies that are too big for them.

The resulting lightly loaded canopies may be barely OK during very light wind conditions but as soon as the wind approaches marginal lightweights under big canopies get into all sorts of trouble.

The problem may be as simple as the smaller student operations not having access to small student canopies rather than one of knowledge deficiencies.

Increased susceptibility to turbulance and decreased penetration issues (especially if the uppers are stronger than the lower winds) are often too much for a student/novice to handle within the required safety margins.

Perhaps some clear amd consistent form of minimum as well as maximum recommended loading standards if adhered to could help here.

It has also come to my attention that this is a relatively common reason for negligence claims against student operations.

If a student (who has put their trust in an operator to look after them within the accepted guidlines as per duty of care) is given a canopy to use that is too big for their body weight and they get into trouble resulting in injury or death as a direct result of that canopy choice then it has been successfully argued that such operators are guilty of negligent behaviour.
This can obviously have financial repercussions.

Now that more and more people are having a go at skydiving the sport is also seeing more and more lightweight people .

Of course we owe these smaller people just as much care as the heavier/larger ones and probably more care due to their less stout build.

If you're aware that this issue has caused major problems for other operators then perhaps you can avoid this happening to you.

[jlmiracle 7]

What is your suggestion to these "problems".

I don't know too many DZ's that can afford to have the prefect sized canopy for every STUDENT. When I went through AFF, I jumped a Manta. At that time I weighed about 120 lbs.

Are these situations that you are taking about happening in winds that exceed what is stated in the SIM? (sorry to refer to the SIM if you are not referring to US jumpers, but your profile doesn't say what country you are from).

How many students have been injured or died as a result of being under a canopy that you would consider too big for them? Were they exceeding the recommended winds?

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[riggerrob 562]

Trae,
You make this sound so simple.
Try to look at this dilemma from the perspective of a small DZO who has to balance cash flow for fuel costs, engine reserves, salaries, etc.
First of all, he cannot buy specialized sizes until he can consistently equip all of his normal-sized students on a busy Saturday.
Secondly, having different sizes of gear can be a headache for packers and dressers. For example, invariably, you end up with five big students, but only one "big boy" rig, which really slows down operations.
Similarly, when he finally buys that one "little girl" rig, Murphy's Law states that his next first jump course will include five tiny women!
Hee!
Hee!
Furthermore, the trauma of one big boy breaking a leg - when given too small a parachute - can discourage the purchase of smaller rigs for a good decade.
The only way to make your solution work is to balance smaller canopy types so they can also be used as transition rigs for intermediate jumpers.

Trae, the answer to your dilemma is very simple: more money.
When is the last time you saw a small DZ with a cash surplus?

[billvon 2,471]

>Perhaps some clear amd consistent form of minimum as well as
>maximum recommended loading standards if adhered to could help here.

That's easy to do; just use the manufacturer's recommended minimum loading. IIRC, PD's lower limit is a wingloading of .5; Precision's limit on its Voyager student canopy depends on the size (i.e. 260 has a min exit weight of 197.)

[Witelli 0]

The only way to make your solution work is to balance smaller canopy types so they can also be used as transition rigs for intermediate jumpers.
***

Good point. Students and newly licensed jumpers who still haven't bought their own rigs need to experience different canopy sizes, obviously through progression and instructor approval. So I think there should be availability to multiple sizes. However, you can't expect a DZ to have 5 of each size. So if you get 5 little AFF students on the same day, they'll just have to wait. We use Navigators, and I started on a 260, after only a few jumps, there was another student who was using the 260 so my instructor gave me the 240 at about a 1.04 wingloading. I don't have much experience with different canopies as these are the only 2 canopies I've flown, but I have to say I was much more comfortable under the 240 from day 1, much more penetration, controlability and flare. I think this canopy is just right for me now, the 260 was OK too, but anything bigger would suck if you got caught downwind. But that's just my experience. I guess I'm agreeing with the initial post that I wouldn't want to fly anything overly big or overly small. This is an interesting thread, since you always hear the risks of going too high on a wingloading. You don't hear much of the risks going the other way.

Wow, I just checked the PD website and my 250 exit weight puts me at the novice level for the 260 canopy, but you should be advanced to ride a 240 at that weight. With only 14 jumps should I be comfortable with the 240 or am I misleading myself. TALK TO YOUR INSTRUCTOR, I know and I will, but what do you think? I'm not trying to hijack, but if one canopy size takes you from studednt to advanced, that doesn't leave you with many options for progression. Pretty weird, huh?

[Lindsey 0]

I don't know too many DZ's that can afford to have the prefect sized canopy for every STUDENT. When I went through AFF, I jumped a Manta. At that time I weighed about 120 lbs.

Yeah....where I learned we had a Manta and a Maverone. The skinny (and more advanced...lol) students got the Maverone. The rest jumped the Manta. One time I recall a little bitty girl getting sucked up in thermals?? over and over again as a thunderstorm rolled in. But she eventually landed....and what's more important....nobody died .

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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Precision's limit on its Voyager student canopy depends on the size (i.e. 260 has a min exit weight of 197.)

Huh??
Who would buy a student canopy with that kind of limit?

edited for punctuation

[divegoddess 0]

Can someone give me a good reference to look up more information on this??? I'm a little girl. 5'5" and 110 lbs. I've only done three jumps, but I'm always the last one down. I did my first level of AFF on Saturday (woo hoo Thanks
~Amanda

[Trae 1]

in reply to "How many students have been injured or died as a result of being under a canopy that you would consider too big for them? Were they exceeding the recommended winds? "
...........................................................

I know of at least 3 cases fairly recently (different DZ's) in the courts (students claiming negligence) due to the student being seriously injured due to being put out in too high a wind with too big a canopy by people who should have known better.

Sometimes these winds have come up after take-off and poor ground-air communication prevented the jump being aborted. Other-times the injuries were a direct result of instructor inexperience or just plain negligent behaviour.

Putting a lightweight out in marginal conditions under a lightly loaded canopy can result in the student being blown out of easy sight of target control and into areas containing unfamiliar landing obstacles and turbulance creators.
A combination of mistakes including poor TC can put the student outside their zone of control.
This is not that uncommon in my experience but usually (thankfully ) no harm is done.

However when it does goes wrong it can go very wrong.
If the student/novice injures themselves or dies it is relatively easy to argue (in court) that their injuries were a direct result of negligent behaviour.

in reply to riggerrob's "The only way to make your solution work is to balance smaller canopy types so they can also be used as transition rigs for intermediate jumpers."

Perhaps not the only way but certainly one good idea.

It IS easy enough to recognise this problem as a problem.
The most simple solution is to be more cautious.
It would also be helpful to be aware of the circumstances when this little problem can turn ugly....and avoid them. Tell the student/novice to wait.

Smaller operations can't reasonably be expected to have multiple canopies of each different size due to excessive costs.
What can be expected of DZ's is that they act appropriately when dealing with small people in marginal weather conditions.
Waiting for good conditions is par for the course for students and they shouldn't be encouraged to jump if the conditons don't suit their experience level.


in reply to riggerrob 'Furthermore, the trauma of one big boy breaking a leg - when given too small a parachute - can discourage the purchase of smaller rigs for a good decade. "

Yep this can happen and does . Once again it points towards negligence (for the operation ) if a heavy weight student is given a canopy too small. Sometimes they just go and get a rig by themselves and no-one notices .

Tighter rig control & organisation solves such problems.

[happythoughts 0]

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If a student (who has put their trust in an operator to look after them within the accepted guidlines as per duty of care) is given a canopy to use that is too big for their body weight and they get into trouble resulting in injury or death as a direct result of that canopy choice then it has been successfully argued that such operators are guilty of negligent behaviour.

"If a student ...then it has been successfully argued..."

Did it happen or not? It "has been" argued "if" it happened ?

The tense of the sentence contradicts itself.

Death? Successfully argued ? A court case ?

Wouldn't happen to have a link, would you ?
If you are basing this allegation on fact, it would be interesting to read.

"such operators" So, a lot of "operators" are doing this?

[OSOK 0]

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...Secondly, having different sizes of gear can be a headache for packers and dressers...

We have plenty of different size student rigs, and as a packer myself I can say that it creates no problems for any of us.

[Witelli 0]

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I know of at least 3 cases fairly recently (different DZ's) in the courts (students claiming negligence) due to the student being seriously injured due to being put out in too high a wind with too big a canopy by people who should have known better.

Sometimes these winds have come up after take-off and poor ground-air communication prevented the jump being aborted. Other-times the injuries were a direct result of instructor inexperience or just plain negligent behaviour.

Trae, great point. Whenever I ask stupid questions in this forum, people tend to not want to answer and direct me to my instructor. We all know to ask the instructor, so saying it over and over just gets redundant and to be honest with you it's irresponsible (please read on before you rip me apart) to some extent. You need to have instructor approval as well as self approval. If your instructor says something that doesn't agree with you (you can handle these winds, you can handle this smaller canopy), but you don't feel comfortable with it. Don't jump until you resolve those feelings. If my instructor handed me a 200 size canopy I would not have jumped. Why, because I question everything and I learn by reading and learning from others, I wouldn't feel comfortable with that size. Don't think I'm saying an instructors word is not extremely important. All I'm saying is that you need his word FIRST then you have to also feel comfortable with it. If you don't, simply don't try it. It's your life up there. I'm sick of people trying to sue people just because they can't take responsibility for themselves. OK, so the first couple of AFF jumps you rely on your instructor, after that you should be educating yourself to the point that you can question the reasoning behind what your instructor is telling you. That is our own responsibility.

What do you think, when a newbie asks a question can we change the phrase "Talk to your instructor" to "Talk to your instructor, feel comfortable with your instructor said and do it, or DON'T."

[faulknerwn 37]

Interesting - from what I've observed - the problem is getting BETTER not worse.. I started jumping in '93, and most dzs even at that time had round reserves. I always jumped the "small" gear with a Maverone and a 26' round.. Its was huge.. And at the time I was 5'1 and 110 lbs...

With practically all the drop zones having square reserves now - that alone can make the rigs less bulky and better for small people. And there are so many more choices of appropriate student canopies now than back then its night and day difference.

Big isn't necessarily bad tho. I was an awful freefall student but I loved the canopy ride. And being small I could easily ride the thermals and I'd hang out up there until they started yelling at me on the radio to come down cuz they needed the rig!

If the student is getting blown backwards into inappropriate areas then to start with the spot sucked.. As a student, I flew straight down or backwards under that Maverone in anything above 5mph. But I was dang good at accuracy on it too.. But we were jumping Cessnas, the JM's knew I was small, so they spotted me really long. And it was fine..

The funniest memory I have of those big rigs was that I borrowed a friend's rig (I was a poor broke student then) and jumped with a friend at Deland. I was 110 under a 220.. He was under a Sabre. We did a 2-way, and I opened and flew around. Got stuck in a thermal over Deland's runway and while spiraling was going up! By the time I managed to get down, my buddy was closing his container...

My student experiences are probably what got me loving CRW but that's not a bad thing!!

W

[MarkM 0]

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Can someone give me a good reference to look up more information on this???

Find out the make and size of the canopy you're jumping, go to the manufacturer's website, look up the specs on the canopy and find out what the min wing loading is for the canopy.

If you have any other specific questions regarding the issue, discuss it with the manufacturer of the canopy or your instructor. They're 100% more reliable than some anonymous source on the internet.

[MarkM 0]

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Trae, great point. Whenever I ask stupid questions in this forum, people tend to not want to answer and direct me to my instructor. We all know to ask the instructor, so saying it over and over just gets redundant and to be honest with you it's irresponsible (please read on before you rip me apart) to some extent.

No it's not irresponsible, and people say it because many many times there are considerations to take into an account that a person on an internet forum won't know about. This is especially true, when the person asking for advice is a student, because there's a lot they don't know and they can easily leave out information that a person needs to know about in order to give safe advice.

[Trae 1]

in reply to happythoughtsThe tense of the sentence contradicts itself. .............................................

So my english sucks ...it doesn't change the truth and reality of this as an issue. I don't really want to get into the specifics even though I could provide some more intimate details of these cases (some of the transcripts and statements do make VERY interesting reading ) but I don't have a link for you.
This sort of thing is not usuallly made available to the skydiving public ......especially by the negligent perps. Here we're only talking about the issue in general .

OK so it's an old one for some out there ....
and a lot of places know how to deal with it... next..

The thing is there are a lot of new players in 'pro' skydiving and to them it could still be an unknown POTENTIAL problem...relatively easily avoided if aware of. I know it has given more than a few operators a nasty bite for not protecting themselves against this.

in reply to Witelli "What do you think, when a newbie asks a question can we change the phrase "Talk to your instructor" to "Talk to your instructor, feel comfortable with your instructor said and do it, or DON'T."

I'd say talk 'WITH' your instructor no 'TO' them .I agree that it's not ALWAYS the instructors fault . Even though they are in the power position that does not totally exclude personal responsibility on the students part.
Unfortunately students often don't have a very wide grasp of the sport and it's less obvious pitfalls. This tends to put the onus back on the instructor to do the right thing.

The aim here has been to talk about it not to point the blame. I've got a lot of respect for most dedicated professional skydivers ...they do a sometimes tough job well ,,most of them.

in reply to Faulknerwn "- from what I've observed - the problem is getting BETTER not worse.. I started jumping in '93, and most dzs even at that time had round reserves. I always jumped the "small" gear with a Maverone and a 26' round.. Its was huge.. And at the time I was 5'1 and 110 lbs... "

I suppose I'd concede the frequency of incidents is a bit up and down Bit more like up at the moment.

I also have enjoyed quite a few thermally long rides under canopy not really minding where I came down..(pity the legs straps end up cutting your circulation so badly)

This is more of a problem at the DZ's where the surrounding areas are not wide open...land half a mile off some and you're in deep doo doo.
Over time more and more DZ's are opening in smaller and smaller areas with fewer back-up landing spots nearby.
Often these newer DZ's are run by people without a long term knowledge or experience of skydiving... eg like with non GPS spotting.
Perhaps they could do with some gentle reminding as these types of DZ's figure prominently in the negligence cases I'm aware of.

Some places it doesn't really matter how far away you land (within a mile or two ) as they are surrounded by relatively open places.
Some DZ's close to large bodies of water are no doubt more aware of the potential problems with a student 'floating off into the sunset'.

One DZ I heard about didn't even know that some-one on the last load had bounced only being informed 3days later by a farmer who found the body. This place also had a series of incidents where students landed off from bad spotting . If (when) this happens around sunset perhaps you can see how this type of thing can be unnecessarily dangerous for a student & considered negligent behaviour by a court.

[phoenixlpr 0]

I think choosing the right canopy for the student is the responsibility of his/her instructor. Grounding them because of winds is also the responsibility of the instructor.

[Belgian_Skygirl 0]

I am a lightweight person. It was hard to learn how to fly a canopy: the gear itself is to big. Sometimes wind condition changes during your jump and one has to deal with it. When a canopy is too big, and there is not enough weight in it, you can fly backwards or even land backwards (happened to me several times), when you land and the weight is not enough, a lightweight person is more likely to suffer from turbulence, which makes it more difficult to land, student rigs are big and I can understand as well that a dropzone cannot afford it to buy some materials for tiny jumpers, as they are a minority. Stearing toggles are to long and thus it is more difficult to have a proper flare.

Then there is the pressure from some fellow jumpers, almost double my weight: there is not too much wind, why don't you jump? Well, as a matter of fact, in my experience I fly away in this wind. I will fly backwards, even hanging against the wind. Why don't you pull your front risers to descend more easily... I do, but I pull myself up, in stead of pulling the nose of the canopy down. Are you afraid of falling and hurting yourself? When it is windy, I am idd ,as it is difficult to land properly when you fly backwards. You mustn't be afraid to fall as the impact is lower when you fall as you are lighter... etc... I hate all those remarks! I spoke in Empuria to a guy who is in charge of the canopy school and according to him it is more diffcult to learn to land properly with huge student rigs when you are light. He told me to do about 100 jumps with a 150 (I just started to do so), than go to a 135 and stay there or to downsize a bit more. And you know what: the 150 flies better for me, but stil: it was a bit windy... and I didn't fly backwards... not that that I flew forward like the others... when pulling the frontrisers, i was able to descend better etc... but... some people tell me to take a 120 as it won't matter to me. I know the following: I must go to a 135 at ease. Flying a 150 canopy is so much easier for me... I am finally able to land properly. And when I take a 170 it is much more difficult.

Some people think that being light is an advantage, but for gear matters it is not the case, however, it didn't stop me from doing this wonderful hobby. I can't wait to pass to a 135, but I will do it the way the canopy instructor told me... he said that the wingloading is one thing, but that I have to take ino considertion the fact that the lines are shorter in small canopies and therefor small canopies are more reactive. I gained self confidence the moment the canopy wasn't that huge any more. However, the 150 still is big for me, but it is so much better than the bigger canopies...

Being grounded due to wind really sucked,but it was necesary, but wasit a soution? I don't know. Some people say one can downsizefrom the moment he masters his canopy (and landings), but I wasn't able to do so... only when I jumped with a 150 it really improved.

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No dive, like skydive... wanna bet on it?

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Being grounded due to wind really sucked,but it was necesary, but wasit a soution?

If you gear is not safe in that wind condition? I think YES.

[Belgian_Skygirl 0]

I completely agree... but I wanted to say something else with my statement... due to my poor landing skills with big student canopies, it was concluded that it was safer for me not to jump. On my skydiving holiday there was much more wind (Empuria is a windy place to jump) and they gave me a radio and a smaller canopy, and I landed perfectly. And it was quiet windy overthere, more than I was used to. And with a smaller canopy I was better in handling the canopy and to land properly.

Now I don't listen any more: I use my common sense... is it windy (I know that I have to be carefull) I don't jump... I just wanted to say that if a canopy 'fits', it is easier to make a progression (also mentally) as there are more circumstances in which a lightweight person may jump. Of course everybody has to go through the huge canopy phases, but learning a person from 46 kilo to jump with the same student canopy of a person from 80 kilo's.. it makes a difference!

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No dive, like skydive... wanna bet on it?

[Reginald 0]

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I know of at least 3 cases fairly recently (different DZ's) in the courts (students claiming negligence) due to the student being seriously injured due to being put out in too high a wind with too big a canopy by people who should have known better.

Sometimes these winds have come up after take-off and poor ground-air communication prevented the jump being aborted. Other-times the injuries were a direct result of instructor inexperience or just plain negligent behaviour.

It sounds like students were put out in winds above the student wind limit. So is the problem the size of the canopy or the violation of the BSR's for student wind limits? I'm betting its the wind limit.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[phoenixlpr 0]

Stay on the safe side! Jumping @ WL 1.4 with a 150 is not the same that WL 1.4 on a 120. WL does not scale linear way.

[Belgian_Skygirl 0]

I agree with you. BUT: it depends. When there is wind 7m/s and a student, weight: 85 kilo's will probably experience no problems while landing his manta student canopy. A light person (45 kilo's) with the same experience level flying the very same student canopy will probably find it more difficult to land.

The windfactor is very important for a student, but the canopy size matters as well.

And of course: too much wind should imply a jump limit for aal students! But too much wind for a light person may be good enough for a heavy jumper as the canopies are the same!

This discussion is about student gear/canopies for light weight students. I agree that there is a lack of meterial for rather extreme light jumpers. If a light student could fly a student canopy that would feel the same as a student canopy for normal and heavier people, they should be able to jump in wind with 7m/s as well (I talk in meters and kilo's as I am from Europe). But I fully understand why it isn't feasable for a dz to buy this kind of material. Especially because people don't jump in student rigs fore ever and as there are few light weight jumpers. At my dz there is a tiny girl with a weight of 40 kilo's, even lessen than my weight... and it is extremely hard for her to land a Fury.

And I agree, I am almost sure that there should be a jump limit, taking into consideration the experience, number of jumps and gear.

I know that in Empuria there was once a jump limit for 50 jumps. I had 55 jumps. I flew a 170 that day, and I didn't jump as the canopy was too big for me. With a 150 or smaller, there would have been no problem, but I din't have that experience yet, so I decided not to jump. I just want to say that jump limit does not say everything.

These are 2 different discussions in my eyes. Im through the student canopy stage and I must say that it would have been more convenient to me to have learnt to jump wit a smaller student canopy. However, I understand the dz as money is an issue. Maybe there are max. 2 tiny jumpers a year or even less... but I was told several times that jumping with a too big canopy can be as dangerous as jumping with a to small canopy. i think this is the discussion.

On the other hand, it was no problem to jump with huge student canopies, only was I grounded much easier than others, which was a good measure from the instructors, but it worked on my self esteem. Other students were allowed to jump and I wasn't, so they had more practice. I had bad luck: in 2004 it was rather windy and I was grounded week after week... my self esteem got below zero. I was told if there were smaller student canopies, I would not have been grounded, as long as winds were max. 7m/s.

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No dive, like skydive... wanna bet on it?

[Belgian_Skygirl 0]

I know. The canopy instructors I met (several instructors in Europe) all say I should fly a 150 (square or semi eleptical) for at least 100 jumps. I do it not on my own, but ask instructors to watch me and give advice. Some fellow jumpers laugh with my safety attitude, but I want to do things properly.

I don't know if you fly backwards when the wind is 7m/s... that you land backwards, that so called safe canopies give more turbulence that the 150... One day I had had it and I asked a 'canopy instructor' to watch me and he said my problems are a result from my wingloading problems. The Spectre 150 is just fine... to be honest, I don't do crazy things... very classical, no crazy turns... 100 -150 jumps with this one and than I will see... maybe I will stay at the 150, maybe I will take the 135, but still more than 100 jumps to go with the Spectre 150... I want to focus on that. I know that smaller canopies are more reactive. I have 75 jumps now, my weight is 46 kilo's and the 150 is much more stable and finally I can pull my frontrisers down! Can you imagine how difficult it was to land a manta with a little bit of wind? I notice that when I pull a toggle it turns fast... Of course the canopies I flew up to now were not custom made: the lines from the toggles were too long...

But, don't you agree that a proper wingloading for student canopies can be important? Student canopies are made for students, one cannot pull them in stall f.i. etc...

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No dive, like skydive... wanna bet on it?

[phoenixlpr 0]

First of all, I'm not an instructor.

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one cannot pull them in stall f.i. etc...

So how can you learn what stall is in practice?

I think they should be more forgiving in general. Beware they can bite too. I broke my ankle with a Navigator220 after I got my license.