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Do experienced jumpers tend to die more frequently than newbies. You can debate the statistical validity of this statement but I do believe it's true.

2 segments:

fewer than 200 jumps
> 200 jumps

dead
alive

2 outcomes

Anyone got the math? I would be curious.

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Dave I agree with most of your points, that's why I outlined my process clearly so people could learn



Then you don't agree with most of my points. My biggest point was that your 'process' is flawed, and not based on any real experience, training, or guidance, and while it's foolish of you to follow it yourself, it's irresponsible to suggest it to others, caveats or no.

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I am focused on fatalities - if people see that cameras do not cause fatalities they may dismiss the issue entirely, because what do they cause? If not fatalities, or not landing injuries, then what?



Maybe they do cause landing injuries. Mayeb they cause freefall collisions. Maybe they cause low pulls that lead to two-outs and landing on a roof. The point is that none of these incidents are recorded in any official capacity, nor databased in any way at all. The end result is that you can do all the 'research' you want, but you won't find much of anything about cameras because if something doesn't kill you, it doesn't get in the books. Trouble is, there's a whole host of things that would ruin your life, but still not kill you.

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- barrier to entry for camera fliers in the biz
- it's irrelevant to all but a select few people who don't like other people to fly cameras.

You know what I'm saying?



I'm not sure, but if you're suggesting that this whole thing is a ruse put on by working camera flyers to increase their own job security, I'll say that you're not the first hot-to-trot newbie to suggest that, and that it remains one of the most laughable suggestions I've come across.

There are a good number of threads these days about guys who want to 'cutaway' and work at the DZ, but they all seem to have about 100 jumps and no ratings. What I exaplined to all of them is that good jobs at the DZ are not just there for the taking. You need to be a skilled, experienced worker to show up at a DZ and expect to work. As an unrated, unskilled, newbie jumper, you're not going to get shit for a job, because that's not the way the DZ works. You need to hang out, spend money jumping, and become one of the 'locals'. Once they know you, and you start expressing an interest in working, you might get tossed some overflow work, where you can cut your teeth. After doing this for awhile, you become a skilled, experienced worker, and can go out and get a full-time slot being paid to jump.

The point is that I shoot video, and you couldn't take my job no matter how hard you tried. I put in many years of hard work, effort and determination to get where I am, and I continue to try just as hard to maintain my skills and the quality of the product I produce. Not to mention, I have no idea where you jump, and I have no idea where any of you DZ.commers jump. I don't see how any of you would be a threat to my job. It's a rediculous notion.

The bottom line is that the better that skydiving is in general, the better it is for me. The safer jumpers are across the board, the better off we all are. Less acidents, less funerals, less lawsuits, fewer DZs closing, fewer manufacturers failing, etc, etc, etc. It's all fun and games until it's not, then it get's very, very bad, and it only takes one 'mistake' to get there.

Let me get 'old school' on your ass - do what you want, but realize your playing a dangerous game, and stand to take yourself (or someone else) out of the game for good. I've seen 100 guys just like you come and go, some of them by choice, some of them by ambulance never to return. Maybe they're not dead, but they'll never walk again (or sleep without pain meds for a decade). You want to take your chances? Fine, keep your trap shut about it, and do your best not to take anyone down with you if you fall. I would suggest you take another path, and realize that the reason I can say these things about what I did jumping 15 years ago, and the 100s of newbies I've seen come and go is because I've made it this far, and it wasn't because I tip-toed through life. I'm a jumper, like you, but I've managed to stay just on the 'upright' side of the line, where others have spent some more time in the 'horizontal' orientation. If you can snap yourself out of your 'awesomeness' long enough to see that, and figure out what it means, you'll see that I'm only here to help, and that I might be a good dude to listen to. I'm not your dad, your boss, or your high school principal, I'm a skydiver like you. I'm on your side, so drop the defences and use your brain for making your choices, not your dick.

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"Let me get 'old school' on your ass - do what you want, but realize your playing a dangerous game, and stand to take yourself (or someone else) out of the game for good. I've seen 100 guys just like you come and go, some of them by choice, some of them by ambulance never to return. Maybe they're not dead, but they'll never walk again (or sleep without pain meds for a decade). You want to take your chances? Fine, keep your trap shut about it, and do your best not to take anyone down with you if you fall. I would suggest you take another path, and realize that the reason I can say these things about what I did jumping 15 years ago, and the 100s of newbies I've seen come and go is because I've made it this far, and it wasn't because I tip-toed through life. I'm a jumper, like you, but I've managed to stay just on the 'upright' side of the line, where others have spent some more time in the 'horizontal' orientation. If you can snap yourself out of your 'awesomeness' long enough to see that, and figure out what it means, you'll see that I'm only here to help, and that I might be a good dude to listen to. I'm not your dad, your boss, or your high school principal, I'm a skydiver like you. I'm on your side, so drop the defences and use your brain for making your choices, not your dick."

I am not normally a fan of the delivery of a lot of the posts that experienced jumpers make, but that is one of the best posts I have read here.

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

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Do experienced jumpers tend to die more frequently than newbies. You can debate the statistical validity of this statement but I do believe it's true.

2 segments:

fewer than 200 jumps
> 200 jumps

dead
alive

2 outcomes

Anyone got the math? I would be curious.



So quit while you are ahead.

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>I'll have 2 new audibles as well, so the odds of failure will be minimized by several
>factors.

More gadgets! What could go wrong?

>I do not believe I will lose alti awareness.

No one does.

>There should be a sticky that says 'how to jump with a camera and not kill yourself'
>all other details left out.

Would be about as ethical as a post that says "how kids can drink and drive and not get in trouble."

(I can just hear the arguments - "but I did it when I was 15 and was fine!" "I can handle liquor much better than most 14 year olds." "You old fossils want to keep all the vodka for yourself." "I have a car with radar distance warning so the odds of colliding with anything will be like almost zero." "Someday everyone is going to do it so why not help them instead of being fucking assholes about it?")

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>But to answer your question I did it because I was not breaking a requirement, rather
>- a recommendation.

At the USPA meeting this week, the "BSR or not?" question came up. I'll hang on to this quote as a good argument for making it a BSR. Some people won't listen to anything but a BSR.

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>But to answer your question I did it because I was not breaking a requirement, rather
>- a recommendation.

At the USPA meeting this week, the "BSR or not?" question came up. I'll hang on to this quote as a good argument for making it a BSR. Some people won't listen to anything but a BSR.



Well said and I loved your drinking and driving analogy.
Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

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At the USPA meeting this week, the "BSR or not?" question came up. I'll hang on to this quote as a good argument for making it a BSR. Some people won't listen to anything but a BSR.



What I don't understand is who is lobbying against making it a BSR? Who is taking the other side of the argument that sub 200 jump people should be playing with a camera?
For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

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>What I don't understand is who is lobbying against making it a BSR? Who is taking the
>other side of the argument that sub 200 jump people should be playing with a camera?

There was a counterproposal that it be lowered to 100 jumps. I can see DZO's wanting more ready access to cameramen, and also not having to get involved as much with newer jumpers. It's a lot easier to not have to talk to people about camera usage. (A kinder way to say that would be "that way we won't have to hassle people so much.")

I think there's also a feeling that it's "much ado about nothing" - that small format video cameras are no more distracting than, say, altimeters are.

Traditionally you need a few fatalities to move something from a recommendation to a BSR, and I only know of one sub-200 jump camera fatality so far (although there are dozens of non-fatal incidents that involve them.) Unfortunately it may require a few more fatalities for any action in that direction.

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>What I don't understand is who is lobbying against making it a BSR? Who is taking the
>other side of the argument that sub 200 jump people should be playing with a camera?

There was a counterproposal that it be lowered to 100 jumps. I can see DZO's wanting more ready access to cameramen, and also not having to get involved as much with newer jumpers. It's a lot easier to not have to talk to people about camera usage. (A kinder way to say that would be "that way we won't have to hassle people so much.")

I think there's also a feeling that it's "much ado about nothing" - that small format video cameras are no more distracting than, say, altimeters are.

Traditionally you need a few fatalities to move something from a recommendation to a BSR, and I only know of one sub-200 jump camera fatality so far (although there are dozens of non-fatal incidents that involve them.) Unfortunately it may require a few more fatalities for any action in that direction.



Making it a requirement gives it no more teeth than it had as a recommendation. There is no police officer ready to haul you off to jail if you don't obey the "law". It still boils down to the DZO and S&TA to control things at their DZ.
"For you see, an airplane is an airplane. A landing area is a landing area. But a dropzone... a dropzone is the people."

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>What I don't understand is who is lobbying against making it a BSR? Who is taking the
>other side of the argument that sub 200 jump people should be playing with a camera?

There was a counterproposal that it be lowered to 100 jumps. I can see DZO's wanting more ready access to cameramen, and also not having to get involved as much with newer jumpers. It's a lot easier to not have to talk to people about camera usage. (A kinder way to say that would be "that way we won't have to hassle people so much.")

I think there's also a feeling that it's "much ado about nothing" - that small format video cameras are no more distracting than, say, altimeters are.

Traditionally you need a few fatalities to move something from a recommendation to a BSR, and I only know of one sub-200 jump camera fatality so far (although there are dozens of non-fatal incidents that involve them.) Unfortunately it may require a few more fatalities for any action in that direction.



I'm not advocating newbies jumping with a camera, just stating some observations.

Most if not all the people I know who have B licenses, got a GoPro shortly afterwards. It is quite funny on facebook as they post their GoPro toy - which gets all the normal warnings about jump numbers. The reply is ALWAYS I know and not yet. Then you see the 100th jump video and them sporting a gopro:|. Or in one case the answer was for mounting biking, but the next pictures of the sub-100 jump person doing a wingsuit rodeo sporting their GoPro.

IF you are going to jump with a camera, at least get the proper equipment. A helmet cutaway, audible etc. Get education on how your emergency procedures have to change. To the best of my knowledge nobody I know who jumps a gopro has the appropriate equipment.

I think there is a little bit of a generation gap though. Many younger people live their lives saturated with video and just about everything they do in life is recorded to pass on to mates. This might reduce the distraction, compared to those of us who are 30 and over, where video was mean't to be 'a memory' or actually worth watching.

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I think there is a little bit of a generation gap though. Many younger people live their lives saturated with video and just about everything they do in life is recorded to pass on to mates. This might reduce the distraction, compared to those of us who are 30 and over, where video was mean't to be 'a memory' or actually worth watching.



There is indeed a gap, and younger jumpers may be more used to cameras being around, and things being filmed. However, this has no bearing on the nature of making a jump with a camera, as the fact remains that you are introducing a distraction to the jump, and unless you are prepared to handle the responsibilities of a jump alog with those of a camera, you shouldn't be jumping with a camera.

The generation gap explains why some people find it so hard to understand the problem, but it doesn't erase the problem.

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the gopro is a pain to use in the plane



Not really. Once you have the normal skydiving stuff mastered, the go pro is a snap. And that highlights the issue with low timers doing added stuff.... They are so task overloaded with basic tasks that a new task that is easy for someone with lots of experience in the basic skills becomes difficult for a person with less experience.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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>Making it a requirement gives it no more teeth than it had as a recommendation.

To a large degree I agree. But there are some people who really do think along the lines of what the original poster recently posted, which was "I did it because I was not breaking a requirement, rather a recommendation."

>It still boils down to the DZO and S&TA to control things at their DZ.

Definitely. A BSR makes that a little easier at best.

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Man that's an EDGE case.....1 person died jumping a camera, because they had no parachute. (doesn't count in my book).



I can personally think of two cases where a jumper got on a plane with his rig off and jumped due to the distraction of having a camera. Those are just the anecdotal evidence that I PERSONALLY know. I also know several other cases where we have caught a jumper headed to the plane with his camera helmet but no rig......

I can think of two more cases of people dying from a snag.

And some from collisions:

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7/2/2005 Skydive Wayne County, IN 37 2300
Description: During a tandem deployment, there was a collision with the cameraman. The canopy was damaged, but flew one and a half miles from the dropzone. The tandem pair landed and the student was able to unhook himself after finding the instructor unresponsive, and walk half a mile through a corn-field to a road to get help. The tandem instructor died as a result of the collision. The student suffered minor facial lacerations. The cameraman was able to deploy his parachute and landed off near a house. He is being treated in hospital for a crushed pelvis. He also sustained minor injuries to the T-7, L-3 and L-5 vertebrae which should heal without surgery.



I can think of at least one where the camera guy killed his Mom while she did a tandem jump.... can't find the report right now.

I know so damn many I cant count of people screwing up under canopy trying to get "the shot"... collisions, failure to flair.... All kinds of cool stuff, some of it amazed me. I mean, how does a guy fly right into another guy???

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Date 1/20/1996 Sunstate Freefall, FL EXC,CCOL AGE:43 Jumps:4300
Description: Two jumpers were under canopy. One was jumping a banner. The other was filming. The cameraman in maneuvering contacted the banner, and a "wrap" followed. They were heard to be discussing the situation. At an alt. of aprox 600 feet the cameraman told the other jumper to "cutaway". The jumper deployed his reserve and when it reached line-stretch proceeded to cutaway. He got an open reserve at aprox 10 to 20 feet. The cameraman was still with the "mess" which reportedly equaled less than half a canopy and was spinning. The cameraman cutaway at aprox. 100-150 feet and impacted the ground shortly afterward.

Lessons:Filming someone who is making an exceptional skydive makes things more complicated for the cameraman. It's important to remain altitude aware even after a canopy collision. Cutting away below 500ft or so is rarely a good idea. An AAD would not have changed the outcome. Skydiving reports that no banner was involved in this jump, and that the alititude of the cutaway is unknown.


How does a guy get killed by a camera suit?

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Description: The deceased left a Twin Otter at 13500’ filming a 4 Way team and practicing his video skills. The team conducted a normal 4 Way jump, he took the center of the sky for opening, but opened somewhat lower than perhaps he normally would, still easily above 2500’ or more. We extracted a great deal of information from his video camera, which was recording the whole time. His Triathlon 160 canopy opened normally other than an off-heading opening and he was seen in his own video, lifting his right arm for the toggles, but his movement was restricted by the swoop cords he was wearing. He was also wearing gloves on top of the swoop cords, since it was a very cold day and it was his first jump of this type with gloves on.

He managed to reach the left toggle, probably by lifting his leg as he shifted in the harness to get comfortable, as big guys sometimes do. Once he released the left brake, the canopy began an immediate turn to the right, which accelerated rapidly over the course of the first couple turns. His video then shows him taking off his right hand glove to help reach the right toggle. The glove was seen in the video after he removed it. Then he tried to stop the turn by pulling his left riser, but only slightly, having no effect on the spiral. It is expected that he could not reach the left toggle again, due to a swoop cord under his glove on the left hand (and a wrist mounted altimeter on top of the glove). He then moves to the right hand again to remove the swoop cord, which he did, but he still did not reach the right toggle, either due to the force of the spin, other restriction on his arm. Also, the right glove, removed earlier, had inadvertently been let go and got its Velcro stuck to the toggle Velcro on the right toggle, which may have impeded his ability to get the right toggle. This may have been another ‘curve ball’ thrown at him when he was already getting critically low. Again he tries to stop the turn by pulling the left riser, with no effect. He actually made four attempts to do this, each time having little or no stopping power of the turn. There are a few seconds where not much seems to be happening on the video. We expect he is either confused, perhaps disoriented from the spins, perhaps looking for his cutaway/reserve handles, or perhaps just plain overloaded due to the size of the trees and ground below him.

He pulled his cutaway handle at tree top height, almost instantly struck some power lines and then fell to the ground, dying instantly. His freefall after the cutaway was less than 1 second. His reserve handle was never pulled and the Cypres never fired since the rate of descent under the canopy was not sufficient to do so. He did not have an RSL, but that would not have made a difference at the altitude at which he cutaway. He did 11 spirals under the parachute with one brake stowed and his canopy ride was about 43 seconds long in total, most of that spinning.



You clearly don't know as much as you think you do.

I don't know what makes you think you know better than all of those that have been where you are, survived the experience, and gained LOTS more experience you have not even thought about having yet.

To put this in perspective..... You telling me that you will be fine and that I don't know what I am talking about would be like a guy with four jumps telling you that you don't know what you are talking about and that he will be fine.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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One of the things we discussed was learning to skydive on the internet.



Check Blue skies mag, January issue, cool ass dude with a mohawk.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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So just to play Devil's Advocate here - what about coaches? If you can get a coach rating at 100 jumps, and video can be an excellent tool for teaching and debriefing, and most students are gonna want video....is it unreasonable for a student to expect a coach to video their jumps, especially at a DZ where they have to pay for the coach and or the coaches slot?
Could this be some of the thought behind the counterproposal to lower the recommendation to 100 jumps?

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

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Could this be some of the thought behind the counterproposal to lower the recommendation to 100 jumps?



Could be, and that very idea came up in another thread about the 200 jump reccomendation. The real answer, is to raise the coach min. to meet the camera min., but even then, it's not a perfect solution.

Even if you do that, do you really want a jumper making their first jumps as coaches, aslo their first jumps with cameras? Does that sound like a good idea to anyone?

I had suggested a min. number of camera jumps before taking one along on a coach jump, and I think I mentioned 20 jumps as an idea. Someone esle mentioned that it was far too low, but in either case, it's all just talk becasue you can be a coach with a camera with 100 jumps in the US, and it's all 'legal'.

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>If you can get a coach rating at 100 jumps, and video can be an excellent tool
>for teaching and debriefing, and most students are gonna want video....is it
>unreasonable for a student to expect a coach to video their jumps

Not at all. New jumpers don't know much about how the sport works.

It is unreasonable for a tandem student to expect his 10 jump AFF-grad buddy to jump with them during their tandem? No. To him, his friend has oodles of experience and he's with an expert instructor. And to the friend, he might think "I'm cleared for solo freefall jumps and that tandem is just going to sit there and not move; the perfect target!" However, the chief instructor will likely have a different opinion.

>Could this be some of the thought behind the counterproposal to lower the
>recommendation to 100 jumps?

It might well be. And if the coach can charge for video - and the DZ gets a percentage of that - that's an even stronger incentive.

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So just to play Devil's Advocate here - what about coaches? If you can get a coach rating at 100 jumps, and video can be an excellent tool for teaching and debriefing, and...................?



Not all coaches are 100 jump begginers. If the student wants video, hire an outside videographer. They can always use the work. Hell, I do them all the time for free.

Or, this is where you assign the coach with 1000 jumps and 400 camera jumps who has a track record of ability and skill. Not all coach jumps are equal , nor are all coaches. We come back to the concept of 'Common Sense". Use your best qualified people for the toughest jobs. B|

edited to add... When I take video on coach jumps, the quality is what I would call "Usable". If you want good video, outside is where it's at.
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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>Not all coaches are 100 jump begginers. If the student wants video, hire an outside videographer.

An excellent idea. And if that coach really is a 100 jump beginner - then he stands to learn as much as his student from the video.



Win! Win! :)
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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I would not disagree with anything you, Dave or Bill has said in the above posts. All good points, especially making the camera recommendations and coach requirements at least match. However, I cannot help but think that if someone has a coach rating that they be able to fly camera without it being distracting enough to make them a danger - and by that I mean that they should be cognizant enough to pull off the jump safely, not that the video would necessarily be something that the student would want to showcase. I have seen plenty of video that pretty much sucked but a student could still tell what they were doing right or wrong, or what they could improve on.
Is it truly possible to be objective I wonder? I have never flown camera - I am thinking about getting video on a couple of CRW and RW jumps, then strapping on a cam myself and doing the same dives again, and compare the results to see if my performance is affected. I am just worried that I would be hyper aware of my performance and that the data would be compromised since there would be very little chance of me allowing myself to get complacent. Any comments?

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

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