Airline jet fly under during freefall

[dixieskydiver 0]

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First off, make your videos easier to see!! I've downloaded plenty of movies without having to get some DIVX. Find a way to make yours work without it, please.

Divx is a pretty standard codec sparky, also it's what Dave reccomends on Skydivingmovies.com under the compression section. Your technical inabilities are no fault of mine and I would rather save dave some hard drive space than make it possible for everyone across every platform and OS to see my stupid video.

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Anywho, back to the meat and potatoes. What was the first group doing between "door" and "exit"?? Picking their noses? That's the time to be looking out for traffic. Does your pilot only give the door seconds before exit? If so, you may talk to him about adding a few more seconds to that.

There was a spot, however as I mentioned earlier the first group was around 30 or more before me and the jet would have been pretty far away and as far as I can tell it would have been near to below the plane of vision for someone inside the door and in front of the plane.

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Next, unless you were on a downwind jumprun, you really should have had some more time between groups. The 2 way left on the video count of 1, the solo only 2 seconds later at the count of 3 and you left with 4 seconds of seperation between you and that solo on the count of 7. Remind me to leave last if I ever come to your DZ.

Not my DZ, I was just passing through. Once again I follow what the pilot or the aknowledged "senior instructor/jumper" on the plane calls for. I physically counted to 4 with my hand in a downward sweeping motion, it may have been a little quick.

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As far as ***Well, were every group to thoroughly check the spot and examine every quadrant of the sky, of course taking the time to get on their bellies so as to check underneath the plane as well, I think you may have a problem getting out an Otter load in one pass

my rebuttal is what's wrong with asking for a second pass? If you are jumping at a DZ that berates you for asking for a second pass to make the situation safer, you should rethink where you are jumping. Too many people are hesitant to ask for a second pass if the spot doesn't look right. You are off AFF and you are your own jumpmaster now.

You aren't acknowledging the reality that if every jumper on every plane went through that ritual everytime they jumped there would be 2 or 3 passes EVERY jump because by the time they got done the spot WOULD be bad. I'm not saying don't spot, I'm not saying don't call for a second pass if you think it's necessary. These are necessary for safety to be sure.

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Finally, with that little amount of seperation you had it was even more important that you not get distracted by the jet or the "shiny Otter" as you called it. There was a good chance of a canopy collision on that jump. Be sure to look around and clear your airspace. Especially if you are on a solo and have nothing else to look at.

I didn't call the Otter shiny, I said the jet was metallic. I opened with good separation from the other jumpers and maintained eye contact on the one closest to me after the jet passed, I cut that part out because after the compression you couldn't see me watching him anyway he got lost in the fuzz because he was so small.

Dixie
HISPA #56 Facil Rodriguez
"Scientific research has shown that 60% of the time, it works every time."

[billvon 2,400]

>So in the typical 4-5 seconds you have between groups . . .

If you're only leaving 4-5 seconds between groups, it would be a good idea to waste a little more time! 4 seconds is only about 500 feet at 80kts.

>you check your ground spot . . .

Yes. You must do that to avoid landing out in a bad area or punching a cloud.

> maintain eye contact on the group previous to your own to make sure
>you have good seperation. . .

Uh, no. You can look at them, but I can guarantee you I know what you will see - them falling away. Looking at them won't help your separation any; only time can do that.

>but you also manage to check every vector around for aircraft who should
> be notified by radio that there are jumpers in the airspace of a
> permanently filed skydiving dropzone.

Yes. You have to do several things before getting out of any airplane -

-check the spot/cloud clearance (i.e. look straight down)
-clear your airspace (look in a 45 degree cone all around)
-allow enough exit separation between you and the previous group
-climb out and go

The radio really doesn't have anything to do with it. They may not be listening, or they may not have a radio.

[dixieskydiver 0]

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>So in the typical 4-5 seconds you have between groups . . .

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If you're only leaving 4-5 seconds between groups, it would be a good idea to waste a little more time! 4 seconds is only about 500 feet at 80kts.

Ah I forgot that you can tell windspeed and the speed of the airplane on video. Once again, the count between groups varies but I stick with what the senior instructor/jumper/pilot recommends unless I am not comfortable with it. I had good seperation from the jumper in front of me both in freefall and at opening time. You were not there, I was.

>you check your ground spot . . .

Yes. You must do that to avoid landing out in a bad area or punching a cloud.

> maintain eye contact on the group previous to your own to make sure
>you have good seperation. . .

Uh, no. You can look at them, but I can guarantee you I know what you will see - them falling away. Looking at them won't help your separation any; only time can do that.

The time between groups varies day to day and sometimes jump to jump depending on a variety of conditions. Jumping everytime after a certain number of seconds is not the best solution. You can judge horizontal seperation by maintaining eye contact with the groups in front of you. None of that 45 degree nonsense either.

>but you also manage to check every vector around for aircraft who should
> be notified by radio that there are jumpers in the airspace of a
> permanently filed skydiving dropzone.

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Yes. You have to do several things before getting out of any airplane -

-check the spot/cloud clearance (i.e. look straight down)
-clear your airspace (look in a 45 degree cone all around)
-allow enough exit separation between you and the previous group
-climb out and go

The radio really doesn't have anything to do with it. They may not be listening, or they may not have a radio.

I'm glad to see that you pointed out a 45 degree cone is a reasonable check of the airspace around, I feel like I did this to my own satisfaction.

Dixie
HISPA #56 Facil Rodriguez
"Scientific research has shown that 60% of the time, it works every time."

[billvon 2,400]

>Ah I forgot that you can tell windspeed and the speed of the airplane
> on video.

4 seconds is too short with zero winds and an 80kt jump run. It gets even worse with upper winds.

>The time between groups varies day to day and sometimes jump to jump
> depending on a variety of conditions.

Yes, you have to adjust as conditions change.

>Jumping everytime after a certain number of seconds is not the best
>solution. You can judge horizontal seperation by maintaining eye
>contact with the groups in front of you.

No, you can't. Looking at the previous group DOES NOT WORK. They look exactly the same whether there are no upper winds or 100kts of upper winds.

Leaving X seconds between groups means you get Y feet of separation between them in any given conditions. That's why it's the standard used for exit separation.

>I'm glad to see that you pointed out a 45 degree cone is a reasonable
> check of the airspace around, I feel like I did this to my own satisfaction.

Good! I hope you will take this as a learning experience and improve your scan, so that you can in the future you can see and avoid traffic beneath you.

[grue 1]

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First off, make your videos easier to see!! I've downloaded plenty of movies without having to get some DIVX. Find a way to make yours work without it, please..

Divx can be cleanly watched on any platform with a small download, which is more than can be said for Windows Media or QuickTime.

cavete terrae.

[MB38 0]

.mov or .wmv or .avi files... they're just container formats. They hold different compressions types. A .mov file can use Divx compression just the same as it can use MPEG compression, DVC Pro compression or any of about 80 other compressors.

In the format wars, Quicktime has always been the most compatible. While the software does not have the widest reaching playback options out of the box, there's a reason that almost all professional studios utilizing formats from DVCAM to HDCAM to 2K/4K work use Quicktime.

Interestingly enough, my Quicktime can play any file I throw at it. That includes any Divx, 3ivx, WMV, ASF, AVI, you name it. It's just knowing what to do with it.

Anyhoo, enough of my little rant. Just remember the difference between a container format and a compressor. Quicktime Movie files and Windows Media files are not [by nature] large files. If the person chooses the wrong compressor and the wrong bitrate, the file will be huge. The same can be said with Divx. User error will bork it.

I just say use the presets. I can use the h.264 compressor contained within a .mov and compress 1080p to the same file size as most people's SD... and the compression will look just as good. Hooray presets!

This post is long. I'm done.

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[grue 1]

I know the tech details, but most people don't.

Thing is that Windows Media support sucks on Mac and is non-existent on Linux. QuickTime support is tolerable on Windows, non-existent on Linux. Not that I use Linux, but to be fair, DiVx is the most compatible across platforms.

I use QuickTime for almost everything on my machine, too, but when I'm encoding for other people, I use DiVx-compressed .avi files.

cavete terrae.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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Thing is that Windows Media support sucks on Mac and is non-existent on Linux. QuickTime support is tolerable on Windows, non-existent on Linux. Not that I use Linux, but to be fair, DiVx is the most compatible across platforms.

Have you tried mplayer under linux? Or even the backported version on win32? Its playing better than the WMP.

[grue 1]

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Thing is that Windows Media support sucks on Mac and is non-existent on Linux. QuickTime support is tolerable on Windows, non-existent on Linux. Not that I use Linux, but to be fair, DiVx is the most compatible across platforms.

Have you tried mplayer under linux? Or even the backported version on win32? Its playing better than the WMP.

Like I said, I don't use Linux, but after new WMV codecs come out, it takes time for them to be cracked for playback on unsupported platforms.

cavete terrae.

[phoenixlpr 0]

It was many years ago. Mplayer on linux uses vindoz dll for playback. Its not a crack anyway. Its just OFF.

[tombuch 0]

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Permanent NOTAM filed with the FAA, that jet reaaaaaallly shouldn't have been flying that low through our airspace, but yes this is true.

NOTAMS do not prohibit pilots from flying through a parachute release zone. Is it allowed? Yes. Is it neccssarily wise? Probably not. Checking NOTAMS can get to be a mundane procedure. Pilots won't always catch every single NOTAM.

Once a NOTAM is published it is no longer listed in a briefing. Charted DZ's aren't mentioned at all. Aircraft flying with GPS or FMS have no way of knowing about drop zones. It's a big problem. The airspace belongs to everybody, and each of us MUST clear the space.

This issue seems to come up every six months or so. For more information please see The Ranch S&TA area at http://theblueskyranch.com/STA.php. See article 1 "Checking For Traffic" for a good graphic that outlines where to look. See article 8 "Airspace" for a discussion of how the National Airspace System works.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Permanent NOTAM filed with the FAA, that jet reaaaaaallly shouldn't have been flying that low through our airspace, but yes this is true.

It isn't your airspace. If it ever came down to the airlines or skydivers, the airlines would win. They 'own' (no one owns it) the airspace more than skydivers do. An airplane below you has almost zero chance of seeing jumpers coming down on top of them, much less take evasive action. It is up to the jumpers to ensure clearance from aircraft. All the NOTAM means is that put a little parachute symbol on sectional maps, which I highly doubt that jet was looking at.

Being difficult to see the jet is going to sound like a lame excuse if a skydiver hits a jet and would probably end skydiving in the U.S. since the FAA isn't going to take the chance of it happening again and isn't going to put a lot of effort (or any) into keeping skydiving around if it conflicts with the airlines.

Derek

[The111 0]

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A collision between a skydiver and an aircraft can not only kill the jumper and the people on the airplane, but could get skydiving in this country shut down nearly instantly.

You really think so? Looking at how our country has reacted to 9/11 and other things, I guess it's not as unbelievable as it sounds to me.

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It is imperative that everyone clear their own airspace before jumping.

How about this one? Last week at Zhills I was doing some solo backfly jumps in my wingsuit. I cleared my airspace at 13k in the door, and while on my back I could see the runways so was aware of my heading. I flew on my back until 6k where I rolled back over... nobody else on the load was pulling above 4k, and I was way off jumprun so I was fine in that regard. However, when I rolled back over I saw a glider flying in the general area I was headed, probably at about 3k. I thought about buzzing him but it was too low for my tastes so I flew away and pulled. I guess in my situation you could argue I shouldn't have flown on my back for so long, and it's true that if I had been right side up I would have seen him a bit sooner and certainly been able to avoid him in my wingsuit. But nobody could see that glider from the door (it was small, white, and at 3k feet, nearly invisible when I was close to it), and a normal freefaller wouldn't have had much way to avoid it if he had seen it 3 seconds before impact.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[jumper03 0]

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Permanent NOTAM filed with the FAA, that jet reaaaaaallly shouldn't have been flying that low through our airspace, but yes this is true.

It isn't your airspace. If it ever came down to the airlines or skydivers, the airlines would win. They 'own' (no one owns it) the airspace more than skydivers do. An airplane below you has almost zero chance of seeing jumpers coming down on top of them, much less take evasive action. It is up to the jumpers to ensure clearance from aircraft. All the NOTAM means is that put a little parachute symbol on sectional maps, which I highly doubt that jet was looking at.

Being difficult to see the jet is going to sound like a lame excuse if a skydiver hits a jet and would probably end skydiving in the U.S. since the FAA isn't going to take the chance of it happening again and isn't going to put a lot of effort (or any) into keeping skydiving around if it conflicts with the airlines.

Derek

So do we as skydivers need to make more noise? Have talks with the ATCs and regional control centers to make sure they know where we are? Talk to the Airlines to make sure they know where we are? I doubt any ATCs are reading this unless they are skydivers. How are they supposed to know?

Jump

Scars remind us that the past is real

[tombuch 0]

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So do we as skydivers need to make more noise? Have talks with the ATCs and regional control centers to make sure they know where we are? Talk to the Airlines to make sure they know where we are? I doubt any ATCs are reading this unless they are skydivers. How are they supposed to know?

Jump

Develop a local plan that addresses all of the issues. Some suggestions:

1) Talk to local pilots at small airports around your DZ. There are lots of pilot groups and they love having speakers visit their meetings. Lay out the problem as a shared responsibility and seek their support.
2) Publish your own “NOTAM” on the bulletin boards of all local airports. For a sample see: http://theblueskyranch.com/sta/pilot_caution.pdf. If you visit pilot meetings or “fly In” events, take copies to pass around for posting on distant bulletin boards.
3) Contact your local FSDO/GADO (FAA) office and seek their support and ideas. They meet with pilot groups too, and can easily share your concerns around the region.
4) If you have a major airport in your area meet with the airport manager and ask him/her to share your concerns with the tenants. Meet directly with the tenants too. Visit all the FBO’s that handle jet traffic near you and ask them to post your notice in their flight planning area.
5) Ask the local “big” airport with jet traffic to add a mention of your operation to their ATIS broadcast when your operations are especially heavy.
6) Contact the station managers that work for the major airlines at your local airport and ask them to clue their flight planning department into your situation. If possible, seek direct contact with the flight planners that have responsibility for your area.
7) Call the local ATC facility having control over your airspace and set up procedures for handling traffic and communication. When problem happen (and they will) make direct contact with the supervisor and seek forward looking resolutions. Many DZ’s may need to coordinate through a local tower, approach, center controller, and CATF, so you may already have a letter of agreement (LOA) that outlines this stuff. Know what it says and modify those requirements to meet changing hazards.
8) If an airplane does have a close call, try to track it down and learn what went wrong so the problems can be corrected.
9) Educate your local jumpers about the need to check for traffic. Teach them where, when, and why they must check for traffic.
10) Talk to your DZO about adding traffic alerts to the flight deck of your airplane. This can be expensive, but if you are a turbine operation in a major market, it may really help. Consider the advantages of Mode S and ADS-B. If you don’t know what those things are, talk with your pilots or with AOPA.
11) Know what frequencies transient pilots monitor in your area (center, approach, CTAF) and make sure your pilots broadcast on each of those frequencies before each jump. Make sure your pilots broadcast a clear message that will make sense to a pilot visiting from outside your area.
12) Contact USPA and tell them this is a continuing and serious problem at your airport. Ask for their assistance. USPA is currently working on a way to get drop zones into GPS and FMS units, but it’s not considered a priority right now at the FAA level. If you think it should be, let USPA know so they can push harder on our behalf.
13) Contact AOPA and ask them to help with educating the GA traffic.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[pilotdave 0]

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don't know about you but I spot MY jump. I don't let the first group out clear my airspace. NEVER ASSUME!

I definitely agree that we need to look for traffic as best as we can, but I also believe we don't collide with airplanes very often because it's a big freaking sky, our pilots talk to ATC, and most pilots avoid flying over dropzones if they know about them. Not because we spot most of the traffic ourselves.

I think people that believe we can spot all traffic that might come too close are fooling themselves. There's a LOT of sky to really look at carefully in a short period of time. And all of them are against a backdrop that makes traffic very hard to see. Some may even be below clouds, even when we have a nice big legal hole over the DZ. Again, I'm not saying we should trust ATC to tell our pilots about all possible traffic conflicts. We definitely need to look and spot traffic as best as possible. But we DO rely on things other than our own eyes to avoid traffic and we always will. On the bright side, technology will make it easier in the future. Traffic displays are already available for general aviation aircraft (though they're pretty limited). In 20 years I bet we'll have screens by the door that show traffic, weather, and let us check our email real quick while the group before ours is climbing out.

Dave

[Hooknswoop 19]

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So do we as skydivers need to make more noise? Have talks with the ATCs and regional control centers to make sure they know where we are? Talk to the Airlines to make sure they know where we are? I doubt any ATCs are reading this unless they are skydivers. How are they supposed to know?

There are some efforts underway to make skydiving operations more visable to pilots, but I think it is a double edged sword. Make too much noise about aircraft/skydiver safety and conflicts and the FAA will just shut down skydiving (by making it cost too much from equipment/training/regulations).

Derek

[kallend 1,623]

Just to reiterate some important points here, in one place:

1. None of the airspace is yours. Any other user has as much right to be there as you do unless you have an explicit clearance from ATC in controlled airspace, which is most unlikely in VFR conditions. Your access to the airspace is on a "see and avoid" basis.

Don't even think of it as "clearing my airspace", 'cos it ain't yours to begin with.


2. You do not have to be in class "B" or "C" to have airliners below you on jumprun. Happens often where I jump, some 80 miles from O'Hare in Class E.

3. Four seconds between exits is insufficient spacing, regardless of what your chief instructor tells you. Saying " You were not there, I was" is a cop-out, the laws of physics don't care who was there and who wasn't.

4. You cannot possibly tell that you will have proper separation from the group ahead of you at opening altitude by watching them.

5. Even jets must be below 250kts when below 10,000ft msl. So they are not travelling so fast that they catch you unawares if you take a good look out the door before you jump. There is no evidence from the video of much looking around going on.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Zenister 0]

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5. Even jets must be below 250kts when below 10,000ft msl. So they are not travelling so fast that they catch you unawares if you take a good look out the door before you jump. There is no evidence from the video of much looking around going on.

does this apply to military flights as well? I once saw 2 F16s blaze by me slightly above (but offset by a good bit) as i deployed.... wish i'd had a camera that day....

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[hexadecimal 0]

How about some separation

[artistcalledian 0]

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=2836

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[dixieskydiver 0]

Monday morning quarterbacking is fun isn't it boys and girls? I'm sure you would have all seen it no matter where it was in the sky, even behind the plane. One day I hope to be a master of the sky like you all are.

Dixie
HISPA #56 Facil Rodriguez
"Scientific research has shown that 60% of the time, it works every time."

[Hooknswoop 19]

"that jet reaaaaaallly shouldn't have been flying that low through our airspace"

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One day I hope to be a master of the sky like you all are.

Sounds like you think you are the master of the sky, or at least own it.

Take responsibility for your actions. When you are wrong admit it, learn from it, and move on.

Derek

[NWFlyer 2]

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Monday morning quarterbacking is fun isn't it boys and girls? I'm sure you would have all seen it no matter where it was in the sky, even behind the plane. One day I hope to be a master of the sky like you all are.

I've learned something from this video and the responses to it. It's a reminder to me to do something that I don't always do, either. Most skydivers (myself included) tend to be very trusting on the spot; if we look down, it's only to check that the ground below looks vaguely familiar. It takes a video like this to remind us that there's a lot of other things to see as well.

I've learned a lot and heard a lot of constructive feedback and suggestions. I hope you can see through the few sarcastic responses (my original one included, too... sorry) and learn from this, too. I'm fully willing to admit that there are many occasions in which I was just as likely as you to find myself with that same view in freefall. This thread has been a nice reminder of what I can do to prevent that.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[artistcalledian 0]

i still think my post is better

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police