Does anyone else constantly see video with flat flyers who can't track at break off for love nor money?

[Newbie 0]

This is NOT meant to bash flat flyers, but it's just an observation on some of them - the amount of times i watch 3 or 4 way footage of flat flyers who can't track off never ceases to amaze me. You get people who turn nice points, fly well in their formation, don't brain lock and look to be of a decent, capable standard (and although i'm in FF, i do LOVE watching good FS and still enjoy flying on my belly), and then they freaking almost drop like rocks because they go to track in an almost arched body position! What's with that??

Again, I don't mean to bash flatties, but i think you see less of this with FFer's because of the propensity to go on tracking dives, to feel more of the wind on different body configurations and hence understand how to be more effecient at flying and what efficient flying feels like. I could be talking complete bs here, but does anyone know what i mean? Sometimes i look at a 4 way team video and just stare in disbelief that people are putting themselves into a position where they are blatantly not ensuring they have life saving skills (a good track, namely) under their belt and in the bag, before jumping with more than one other person.

Just an observation, and curious to know if anyone see's what i see.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[The111 1]

Something I've noticed before:

I've always heard that on bigway RW jumps, the most important skill is tracking. So I naturally assumed that people would track like mad away from bigway RW jumps.

However, I've watched video of some very large RW formations and at breakoff seen many people in poor tracking positions.

However, maybe there is a reason for this. I understand breakoff probably occurs in waves, and maybe trackers need to control their speed relative to what the wave in front is doing.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[davelepka 4]

Some people have no idea how to track. This shouldn't be news to anyone.

In 4 way, some teams will take it donw to 3.5k for break off, and take a short track. Depending on the speed of your canopy, you only need so much separation.

Also, if a 4 way breaks off, one or two fo them will be on the line of flight, and I don't want them covering to much ground.

As for tracking dives, many of them are not max track positions, in fact very few are. That would be like doing head down at 220mph. You may be bale to stay with it, but if you get out of it, you'll never get back. Don't think that tracking dives make you an expert at going a long way (but yeah, they do help).

Did I mention that many people have no idea how to track?

[billvon 2,476]

I've noted the opposite. On several hybrids I've been on, at breakoff the belly flyers flatten out, and the freeflyers go headdown and tilt a bit. Really good flat tracking is a skill that's pretty specific to bigways; tracking dives emphasize relativity rather than slow-as-possible fall rates. (Which makes sense; a light, tall leader would lose everyone if he or she fell as slowly as possible.)

[billvon 2,476]

>I understand breakoff probably occurs in waves, and maybe trackers
>need to control their speed relative to what the wave in front is doing.

Definitely true. During the 100 ways last weekend, I got grief once or twice for catching up to the previous wave. Often you will see 'poor' tracks in the center since the center people do not want to get near the previous wave. (And sometimes, of course, they track poorly because base people simply don't have to learn to track.)

[livendive 8]

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Did I mention that many people have no idea how to track?

I don't know if it's that they don't know how to or that they just don't put forth the effort to track well, but I'll see your "many" and raise it to "most". Also, it's not limited to belly-fliers, it's just a camera angle thing like tandems looking like they go "up" when they open. People tracking badly off of a freefly basically cork, whereas people tracking badly off a belly-fly sink out.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[beowulf 1]

Most of the tracking dives that we do at Skydive Dallas start out somewhat steep and then gradually go very flat. This makes for a great way to learn flat tracking. I have gotten less then 90mph vertical speed in many of these track dives.

[kallend 1,683]

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I could be talking complete bs here,

Yes, I think you are.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Newbie 0]

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I could be talking complete bs here,

Yes, I think you are.

thanks that adds a lot to the discussion

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Reginald 0]

Honestly, I’ve seen more free flyers that can’t track worth a damn (on their bellies) than I do flat fliers. I watched a FF friend of mine last week track on his belly so poorly that we told him to back track (which he rocked at BTW).

For my two bits FF’ers are generally pretty poor belly trackers…although some of them can smoke on their backs!

okay flame away!

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[mjosparky 3]

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Most of the tracking dives that we do at Skydive Dallas start out somewhat steep and then gradually go very flat. This makes for a great way to learn flat tracking. I have gotten less then 90mph vertical speed in many of these track dives.

The best way to learn flat tracking is to flat track. On big ways, most of the jumpers will reach vertical speeds of close to 90 mph. But they do it by not going steep. Going steep is as bad as pulling in place.

Basic rules for big ways.
1) break off at right altitude
2) follow tracking leader if needed
3) Flat track to assigned altitude
4) Do not over track wave in front of you

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[diablopilot 2]

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Again, I don't mean to bash flatties, but i think you see less of this with FFer's because of the propensity to go on tracking dives,

Actually over all the sport is starting to suck at tracking. Newer FF jumpers get lucky because they are tuning huge freefall speeds into horizontal travel,

Many newer flat flyers are going straight into 4 way where you an get away with being a lazy tracker.

Tracking dives are great, but they don't teach breakoff skills well.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[tdog 0]

From someone who has done a lot of 4ways and some 6, 8 and 10 ways.... More than once I have tracked away from the formation and found myself with a freeflyer whizzing by from the group after me... (Note, the freefly group did not leave the proper separation and/or back slid, but still...)

When I track away from a small group (4way), I spend a chunk of time looking for my teammates and making sure I am in a safe spot, not necessarily the absolute farthest spot, especially if I am "pushed" directly up or down the flight line. I compromise some body position as I look around and count my teammates (or at least identify that I am indeed on a trajectory different than the others)

I know I could track better and am working on it... In fact, I have asked our video guys to video my breakoff so I can debrief that too. But, I still will argue awareness is much better than speed... Better to go where you need to, than to go where you shouldn't fast...

[GravityGirl 0]

Freeflyers start off with more speed and an already flat body position.

Belly fliers start of in an arch at a far slower speed. It takes a couple more seconds to get into a good hard track.

I have 50/50 of each. It's much easier for me to track off from a head down position.... and a lot more fun.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[Remster 26]

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As for tracking dives, many of them are not max track positions, in fact very few are

I dont have many many tracking dives, but I have yet to do one where I wasnt arching to stay down with the rabbit. And I`m not the worlds best tracker either (gravity loves me ).

Remster

[billvon 2,476]

>It takes a couple more seconds to get into a good hard track.

OTOH you start off falling a lot slower. So if you start from 4000 feet in headdown and belly positions, you get much more tracking time starting from your belly.

[GravityGirl 0]

I just think that his perception of a "good track" might be based on seeing the initial departure from the skydive.

Still think you get more horizontal separation, quicker from a head down position. Even if you do eat up more altitude.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[billvon 2,476]

>Still think you get more horizontal separation, quicker from a head down
>position. Even if you do eat up more altitude.

Yep. But if a head downer and I both start at 4000 feet, betcha I get way more separation before I get to 2000 feet than he does. After all, I have 12 seconds and he has 8 to get clear. And separation before you open is the name of the game.

[GravityGirl 0]

You still pull at 2,000 feet? Ew.

Next time we are in the same place at the same time, I say we experiment. I mean what could possibly go wrong.

I think I can flatten out really flat, really quickly from a head down... and with all that speed, I'll smoke your ass!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[kallend 1,683]

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You still pull at 2,000 feet? Ew.

Next time we are in the same place at the same time, I say we experiment. I mean what could possibly go wrong.

I think I can flatten out really flat, really quickly from a head down... and with all that speed, I'll smoke your ass!

I would bet good money that you wouldn't beat Flyangel2 (or Larry Henderson or Raider Ramstead). I've not watched Bill track, so I'll let him speak for himself.

The instructions on the 100 ways at Perris last weekend were for the first wave (that included me) to track to 2200ft.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[GravityGirl 0]

Don't take me too seriously Kallend. I understand you big way flyers pull in what is now considered the basement. I was just trying to yank Bills chain a bit.

And I've never jumped with the three people you have mentioned, so I have no idea how I would fare tracking side by side with them. But if you got money on it, I'll give 'er a go!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[bob.dino 0]

Can't track or don't track?

There's no real need to track like a demon after a 4-way, and it can be dangerous - going hard up or down line of flight isn't too smart. As long as I've got clearance from my teammates I don't feel the need to go hard; I'm more worried about knowing where they & the other groups are rather than maximising distance from them.

On a big-way it's completely different, and I'll track like a bat outta hell.

[mjosparky 3]

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On a big-way it's completely different, and I'll track like a bat outta hell.

And if you over run the wave ahead of you will get some people upset. On the big ways at Perris this last week end, if I had tracked like a bat out of hell I would have run over Remster and maybe caught Kallend.
I agree with the first part of you statement. The purpose of tracking at the end of any skydive is to go to a safe spot in the sky and deploy. This can call for a hard, flat and long track, a short lazy track or anything in between. It all depends on the situation at the time.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[bob.dino 0]

Fair point. I should've specified that on the larger jumps I've been on, I've been in the first wave on breakoff. Oops . Thanks for the catch.

[happythoughts 0]

From watching some video...

Flatflyers start from a stationery point and then accelerate. Some are better than others. Some suck, some are great.

Freefliers start from a higher speed and then angle off. Most go from a vertical position to an angular one at high speed, but not that many really flat track.

Body type helps. People that are skinny and built like surfboards can track into a separate zip code easily.