What are my rights/ Dz information?

[Toddnkaya1 0]

Curios to know if I have the right to ask the DZ for incident reports , injuries, citation info etc. the DZ looks awesome where I will jump, and hopefully get licensed, but I want to know more possibly if I start an AFF course. Maybe I won't ask anything, but I want to if I can and should.
Thanks, Todd

[BIGUN 1,114]

You have the right to ask any question you want. Keep in mind that the incident reports, injuries, etc. will not give you a true reflection of that DZ's "Safety Record."

I.e., which is better... the DZ that has 1,000 jumps with one injury or the one that has 10,000 jumps with one injury.
Were those injuries a result of faulty equipment or pilot error?

You get the idea.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Remster 26]

You have the right to ask for any information. The DZ only has the obligation to share public information.

To the best of my knowledge, the only information that is truly public at a private business is information that pertains to the FAA mandated maintenance of the aircraft, and the repack information of it's gear.

Remster

[davelepka 4]

You have no 'rights' in that regard. Ask whatever you want, but you have no right to any answers at all. I guess the only 'right' you have is to walk away and take your business elsewhere, or nowhere.

To add on to the other reply, what do you hope to garner from these reports? As a non-jumper, how do you plan to asses the true cause of any incident, if it's related to the DZ student program in any way, if it was avoidable or foreseeable in any way, or if they have taken any steps to resolve the problem (if any).

I think the best you can do is to observe the operation for a busy weekend afternoon and how you feel about the proceedings. Make sure the school is affiliated and in good standing with the skydiving governing body for whatever country you live in, and then make sure that you are happy with your training, instructors, equipment and aircraft before you make a jump.

Aside from those things, there's not much a non-jumper can do to evaluate the safety of a given student program.

[Toddnkaya1 0]

Thanks Bigun ! So if I ask to see their records incident reports, safety record, accidents etc. , the DZ should hand that over for me to look at ?
No questions asked? Is this common practice for divers to ask for this ?info ?

[skybytch 259]

Quote

So if I ask to see their records incident reports, safety record, accidents etc. , the DZ should hand that over for me to look at ?

Umm... no. You have no right to confidential information about incidents, and incident reports contain confidential information.

Ask about injuries and fatalities at the dz if you'd like, but don't expect details about those incidents. You don't know enough to process those details at this point.

You can find out if there have been aircraft incidents at the dz with a simple google search. Same with fatalities.

Quote

Is this common practice for divers to ask for this ?info ?

Dunno. We aren't divers.

[BIGUN 1,114]

Toddnkaya1

Thanks Bigun ! So if I ask to see their records incident reports, safety record, accidents etc. , the DZ should hand that over for me to look at ?
No questions asked? Is this common practice for divers to ask for this ?info ?

I said you had the right to ask. They have no obligation to provide anything other than public information. And, even if they shared the incident reports; how would that be any reflection of their safety record.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[demoknite 0]

Whenever you fly commercially do you ask Delta for the inspection records of the tail number you are about to embark on? Probably not. There are FAA records and the Freedom of Information act gives you the right to them. However, in our society, we have an element of trust. When Im going on a road trip I dont ask to see engineering reports for every bridge that I cross and accident rates for specific intersections.
I assume that everyone is doing their jobs. Look up drop zone reviews on this website and observe operations on a good weather Saturday.

[Scrumpot 1]

Quote

Thanks Bigun ! So if I ask to see their records incident reports, safety record, accidents etc. , the DZ should hand that over for me to look at ?
No questions asked? Is this common practice for divers to ask for this ?info ?

You're not really paying any attention to your "answers" being already given to you in here at all, are you? -

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[LyraM45 0]

demoknite

Whenever you fly commercially do you ask Delta for the inspection records of the tail number you are about to embark on? Probably not. There are FAA records and the Freedom of Information act gives you the right to them. However, in our society, we have an element of trust. When Im going on a road trip I dont ask to see engineering reports for every bridge that I cross and accident rates for specific intersections.
I assume that everyone is doing their jobs. Look up drop zone reviews on this website and observe operations on a good weather Saturday.

I was just about to say anything FAA related that has been on the books and investigated will be available through FOIA request. And I agree, there is an element of trust that goes into things, specifically aircraft mx and stuff. One of the reasons why there is a bit of outrage when a dz is found neglecting their airplanes. Same for airliners, I guess.

Question to the OP-- why do you feel the need to ask about this dz? Just in general its something you would vet no matter what dz you were going to?

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[Fast 0]

Toddnkaya1

Thanks Bigun ! So if I ask to see their records incident reports, safety record, accidents etc. , the DZ should hand that over for me to look at ?
No questions asked? Is this common practice for divers to ask for this ?info ?

No it's not common practice. Some people ask questions about stuff like this, but never in much detail and the answer for my dz at least generally is "Yes people have died here, but never a student or tandem".

If you asked me for copies of any kind of incident reports depending on other behavior displayed I would be pretty worried about having you jump at my dropzone. Wouldn't turn you away - but it would somewhat make me uncomfortable. The only people I have generally run into that ask for that detailed of stuff are lawyers.

I mean, I guess it shouldn't matter that you want to know, just something sets my mind ablaze with worry when it does happen.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Divalent 91]

As others have indicated, (and for all sorts of reasons) asking for that sort of information is not going to be very helpful for you. Depending on your location, chances are that you only have, at best, 2-3 options for "local" DZs. A much better option, as Dave suggested, is to visit them on a busy weekend and get a feel for the place. And talk to people.

Ideally, you're looking for a DZ that has a good mix of business: some tandems (keeps the DZ financially healthy), some students, and a sizable fun jumper population. Talk to some students, talk to some fun jumpers, watch the plane loads to see who gets to jump. Tandem mills might advertise on their web site (and tell you to your face) that they train students and that they allow fun jumpers, but in reality they either don't, or that part of their business is given such a low priority for plane slots that you end up wasting time.

One other suggestion: fill out your profile with your location, and also perhaps state the specific DZ you are considering. Chances are that if it is a good DZ, many people here can give you a good rundown of what the place is like. (Including a lot of things you haven't even considered that might be important.)

[Toddnkaya1 0]

Yes , Im paying attention , my post got delayed after a few more people had responded. I thank everyone for their detailed responses.
As I stated , I have no real intention of asking the DZ any of these questions. I will be skydiving at Skydiving Pennsylvani in Mercer Pa. I was impressed with the operation, when I went up to do a tandem. Turned away do to weather. I also read all reviews here as well.
I would like to know how many AFF students they train a season, and maybe their safety record with these students.
I guess after singing twelve pages signing our rights away , I was curious what our rights are to know about the establishment. I do understand that this is a dangerous sport.
I appreciate everyone's responses!!

[Bluhdow 31]

Incidents are very rarely related to DZ practices, and almost exclusively related to jumper practices.

Incident reports won't tell you much except how many jumpers likely made some poor decisions at a particular DZ. And, as others have indicated, you don't know anything about the sport so the incident details won't be meaningful to you.

If you're already asking what kind of legal leverage you may have over a DZ in case you hurt yourself, I'd kindly ask you to find a new sport. Your well being is nobody's resonsibility but your own. If you pound in, it's not on the pilot, it's not on the DZ, it's not on any other jumper...it's on you.

Apex BASE
#1816

[demoknite 0]

Bluhdow

Incidents are very rarely related to DZ practices, and almost exclusively related to jumper practices.

Incident reports won't tell you much except how many jumpers likely made some poor decisions at a particular DZ. And, as others have indicated, you don't know anything about the sport so the incident details won't be meaningful to you.

If you're already asking what kind of legal leverage you may have over a DZ in case you hurt yourself, I'd kindly ask you to find a new sport. Your well being is nobody's resonsibility but your own. If you pound in, it's not on the pilot, it's not on the DZ, it's not on any other jumper...it's on you.

...aaaaand we're done here!

[Toddnkaya1 0]

I think I am being misunderstood. I don't need to see specific reports etc I would just like to know what the safety record is- ie incidents per 1000 jumps and any violations they may have been cited for.

I have a couple of dzs in my area to choose from and because of my inexperience I don't know what to look for as far as safe practices are
Concerned I want some sort of objective criteria to compare them.

Experience in other areas of life has taught me that a business being licensed and in operation does not indicate more than a minimal level of competence.

Because skydiving is an inherently dangerous sport I want to control the factors I can. Am I looking for a place that has a perfect record ? Of course not. But in choosing a site for training the rate and type of safety violations is one factor I would consider.

Certainly other factors would be considered as well such as years in operation, experience of instructors and the opinion of people who have worked with them.

How does someone brand new to the sport make an informed decision about where to seek instruction? If I have a choice between Dzs I want the one that's going to give the best experience/education.

How do I, with no experience or knowledge of the sport, distinguish between a dz providing the minimum required or highest quality instruction?

[skyjumpenfool 2]

Bluhdow

Incidents are very rarely related to DZ practices, and almost exclusively related to jumper practices.

Incident reports won't tell you much except how many jumpers likely made some poor decisions at a particular DZ. And, as others have indicated, you don't know anything about the sport so the incident details won't be meaningful to you.

If you're already asking what kind of legal leverage you may have over a DZ in case you hurt yourself, I'd kindly ask you to find a new sport. Your well being is nobody's resonsibility but your own. If you pound in, it's not on the pilot, it's not on the DZ, it's not on any other jumper...it's on you.

... and you will sign a waiver to that effect.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[Bluhdow 31]

Toddnkaya1

How do I, with no experience or knowledge of the sport, distinguish between a dz providing the minimum required or highest quality instruction?

I'm not a chef, but when I go to a restaurant and something seems funky I leave.

Go check it out. Talk to the instructors. Ask about the program.

In person > Internet

Apex BASE
#1816

[demoknite 0]

Toddnkaya1

I think I am being misunderstood. I don't need to see specific reports etc I would just like to know what the safety record is- ie incidents per 1000 jumps and any violations they may have been cited for.

I have a couple of dzs in my area to choose from and because of my inexperience I don't know what to look for as far as safe practices are
Concerned I want some sort of objective criteria to compare them.

Experience in other areas of life has taught me that a business being licensed and in operation does not indicate more than a minimal level of competence.

Because skydiving is an inherently dangerous sport I want to control the factors I can. Am I looking for a place that has a perfect record ? Of course not. But in choosing a site for training the rate and type of safety violations is one factor I would consider.

Certainly other factors would be considered as well such as years in operation, experience of instructors and the opinion of people who have worked with them.

How does someone brand new to the sport make an informed decision about where to seek instruction? If I have a choice between Dzs I want the one that's going to give the best experience/education.

How do I, with no experience or knowledge of the sport, distinguish between a dz providing the minimum required or highest quality instruction?

If you would have proposed this question first you might have gotten more productive answers. Many times attorneys come to this board posing as newbies trying to glean information so frequenters of this board are very defensive.
You have gotten really what you need from all the answers, but now be even more specific. Are you afraid the plane is going to crash? Are you afraid your instructor is going to kill you? Are you afraid you parachute wont work? Do you think any of those fears would be quelled by a safety report? Have you read the reviews for you desired DZ on the drop zone review section of this website?

[kuai43 7]

Toddnkaya1

Curios to know if I have the right to ask the DZ for incident reports , injuries, citation info etc. the DZ looks awesome where I will jump, and hopefully get licensed, but I want to know more possibly if I start an AFF course. Maybe I won't ask anything, but I want to if I can and should.
Thanks, Todd

When I evaluated dropzones 29 years ago for my first jump, I simply went with the cheapest.
Things worked out ok, I lived, I jumped again. Sure, it looked sketchy, the gear wasn't the newest, but they were earnest and they all survived their jumps. Seemed like a plan. You want more assurances, then the ball room at IKEA might be more your speed.

Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

[Deisel 37]

Toddnkaya1

I think I am being misunderstood.

Get used to it as long as you post on DZ.com! These assholes understand perfectly fine but just enjoy picking apart every syllable, comma, and inference you may write, either real or imagined. Dont let it bug you as there are some here that exist for no other reason than to screw with people's posts. Guess it makes em feel smarter or sumptin...

The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

How do I, with no experience or knowledge of the sport, distinguish between a dz providing the minimum required or highest quality instruction?

http://youtu.be/YQjb7BwlwDQ



Don't worry so much ~ no matter what happens to you...I'll be fine.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[tristansdad 0]

Todd there are so many variables that end in an undesirable result. I think it was stated earlier that some dropzones are going to have more incidents than others because of the shear amount of skydiving taking place. Eloy or Deland may have more total injuries than say a Midwest 182 DZ. If it will help look up your dz here on dz.com and see what others have to say about the place.

[Rick 67]

Deisel

***I think I am being misunderstood.

Get used to it as long as you post on DZ.com! These assholes understand perfectly fine but just enjoy picking apart every syllable, comma, and inference you may write, either real or imagined. Dont let it bug you as there are some here that exist for no other reason than to screw with people's posts. Guess it makes em feel smarter or sumptin...


do you think that was an appropriate smiley to use for that post I mean really and you should learn how to spell something

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[mrubin 0]

Toddnkaya1

How does someone brand new to the sport make an informed decision about where to seek instruction? If I have a choice between Dzs I want the one that's going to give the best experience/education.

How do I, with no experience or knowledge of the sport, distinguish between a dz providing the minimum required or highest quality instruction?

Read the reviews on this site. Spend a day at each dz and see what kind of vibe you get. Call each school and ask whatever questions you have. Tell us which dropzones you're considering and ask for people's opinions and experiences.

You've got a lot of options on how to pick a dz.

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery