RSL, good or bad ?

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

See what you fail to admit is a person can deploy the reserve before a cutaway, with a cutaway, right after, you can take a delay.....ECT all without an RSL.

With an RSL you can only do one.

Why's that? You can do 3 of the 4 options. You still have 2 handles. The only thing you can't do is take a delay, which has killed many people. Sure, every one of those people screwed up. But why should I believe I'm incapable of making the same mistake?

Dave

[Ron 7]

Quote

Why's that? You can do 3 of the 4 options. You still have 2 handles

Fair answer, your right.

Quote

The only thing you can't do is take a delay, which has killed many people.

And not being able to take a delay has also killed people.

Quote

Sure, every one of those people screwed up. But why should I believe I'm incapable of making the same mistake?

Oh you can make the same mistake. But since your a pilot, do you practice engine out procedures? Or do you only fly a Cirrus and plan on just using the recovery chute?

An RSL can be good. Training and practice is better since it can do the same thing and things that an RSL can't. The RSL is not a "smart" device. It does "B" whenever "A" happens no matter what. A human brain properly trained is much better.

The problem is not lack of an RSL but people not bothering to train. This is a sport that is getting so "safe" due to all the gizmos that people are not spending enough time trying to stay alive. They are instead turning that focus into other much less important things.

You want an RSL? Fine. But you should know that it can very well kill you. And it does nothing that you yourself can't do if you bother to train like your life depends on it.

It amazes me how people spend a ton of money to hire coaches to learn how to do all kinds of stuff that in the end does not matter one bit. People plan trips to the tunnel to learn to fly on their heads, but when was the last time any of these folks were in a hanging harness? When was the last time they talked to an instructor about different malfunctions? When was the last time they talked to a rigger about gear, other than which canopy swoops better?

It amazes me how people spend so much time and money training things that will not save their life, and no time or money on things that will.

Do you think my family knows how many gold medals I have an Nationals? Or what my best average is? Nope. But they know I am alive.

Don't get me wrong, I have well over 100 hours of tunnel time, but I also spend a good bit of time training not to die since it is really all that matters.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

An RSL can be good. Training and practice is better since it can do the same thing and things that an RSL can't.

I may be wrong, but I believe the number of people killed because they had an RSL is tiny compared to the number of people that could have been saved if they had one.

I'm not opposed to training and practice. An RSL isn't a substitute for those and nobody that advocates the use of RSLs believes that they are.

But do you have proof that hanging harness training prevents these types of fatalities? I personally think they're caused by the fear of pulling the reserve unstable. Practicing "cut away, get stable, pull reserve." If those people practiced what they were taught at their FJC, they'd probably be alive. Then again, they'd be doing the same thing an RSL would have done for them.

So recognizing that trying to get stable before pulling the reserve has killed many people and RSLs have killed few, I choose to use the safest RSL available, the skyhook. It's got the same problem you mention about every RSL... it removed the choice to get stable before pulling your reserve. That's the point.

Dave

[billvon 2,400]

>if you pull a and dont pull b your an idiot and darwin will take care of you.

This is a dangerous attitude, because it leads to "I am not an idiot and therefore I don't need an RSL." About ten years ago, Rick Horn, an AFF course director who taught AFF instructors how to teach students, needed his RSL because he could not find his reserve handle.

Now, if you are more experienced than Rick Horn (~5000 jumps) and are more current on EP's than someone who teaches them every weekend, then your comment that he was an idiot and will probably die anyway might be valid. But I have a feeling that most skydivers are not as experienced as Rick, nor do they practice their EP's as much. The fact remains that someone like Rick needed his RSL; you may as well even if you consider yourself smart.

[Ron 7]

Quote

I may be wrong, but I believe the number of people killed because they had an RSL is tiny compared to the number of people that could have been saved if they had one.

Difference is that 100% of the people that died due to an RSL had no chance and 100% of the people that could have been saved by an RSL could have saved themselves.

Quote

I'm not opposed to training and practice. An RSL isn't a substitute for those and nobody that advocates the use of RSLs believes that they are.

Thats wrong. There have been plenty of folks on here that have said, "thats why I have an RSL/AAD". I have had people tell me that to my face.

Quote

But do you have proof that hanging harness training prevents these types of fatalities? I personally think they're caused by the fear of pulling the reserve unstable....Practicing "cut away, get stable, pull reserve." If those people practiced what they were taught at their FJC, they'd probably be alive. Then again, they'd be doing the same thing an RSL would have done for them.

You sure they were all trying to get stable? You have some proof of that? You know they just didn't fail to perform due to lack of training?

Are you an Instructor? I am AFF, Tandem and SL. I have never told someone to get stable first. Pull priorities are :Pull, Pull at the right altitude, and pull stable. In that order. If you find yourself in freefall below "X" you pull.

But the fact is that an RSL does nothing that a jumper can't do themself and it HAS caused problems.

Quote

So recognizing that trying to get stable before pulling the reserve has killed many people and RSLs have killed few, I choose to use the safest RSL available, the skyhook. It's got the same problem you mention about every RSL... it removed the choice to get stable before pulling your reserve. That's the point.

Do you have proof all these people were trying to get stable over that they just failed to perform due to lack of training and drilling?

The fact that you admit that RSL have killed is interesting. Would you be OK if a saftey device that was not needed killed you?

If you have a saftey device that can kill you, is it a good saftey device?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[JohnMitchell 14]

I have an AAD. I have an RSL. I have 13 reserve rides. I have never needed the RSL or the AAD, nor have I ever had a malfunction that wasn't by the book. But I don't know what tomorrow will bring, and I believe in playing the odds. The odds seem to favor those who use RSLs and AADs.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Difference is that 100% of the people that died due to an RSL had no chance and 100% of the people that could have been saved by an RSL could have saved themselves.

more absolute statements from you, Ron. Have an answer to Bill's posting? Or do you just want to make it something more like 99.9% now?

Quote

The fact that you admit that RSL have killed is interesting. Would you be OK if a saftey device that was not needed killed you?

If you have a saftey device that can kill you, is it a good saftey device?

Lots of safety devices have killed. Seat belts and airbags come to mind. Yet both are mandated and at least the first one is pretty damn hard to argue against using. (I'm more on the fence with airbags)

[Ron 7]

Quote

more absolute statements from you, Ron. Have an answer to Bill's posting? Or do you just want to make it something more like 99.9% now?

And you still fail to read or know the whole story, but think you understand everything. Rick made several mistakes that lead to that RSL story. One was wearing his harness so lose that it could shift. He even admits that.

Quote

Lots of safety devices have killed. Seat belts and airbags come to mind. Yet both are mandated and at least the first one is pretty damn hard to argue against using. (I'm more on the fence with airbags)

I find it very funny that you are on the fence with airbags, but hold onto an RSL like its the holy grail. So only devices YOU approve of are OK? I think you still have tons to learn about skydiving. I do too. But I listen to others who have much more experince than me...Not argue for the sake of arguing.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

Quote

The odds seem to favor those who use RSLs and AADs.

Yes they do, and I always tell people to KNOW both sides and them make a choice. Problem is that there are still people that think RSL's are perfect. I know people that think an RSL and AAD is a license to not train.

Like I said before, I see people spend tons of money and time on freefall coaching, but very little on the life saving stuff.

In fact my advice on RSL's has ALWAYS been keep one till you have your first mal. Then *IF* you pulled both handles, make a choice. If you didn't pull both, then do some pushups, retrain like hell, and keep jumping an RSL till you pull both handles.

But some people seem to think that an RSL is magical and will will save them if they are stupid.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[skydiverek 55]

Quote

Now, if you are more experienced than Rick Horn (~5000 jumps) and are more current on EP's than someone who teaches them every weekend, then your comment that he was an idiot and will probably die anyway might be valid. But I have a feeling that most skydivers are not as experienced as Rick, nor do they practice their EP's as much. The fact remains that someone like Rick needed his RSL; you may as well even if you consider yourself smart.

From RICK HORN:

"I got saved by a backup device (RSL) on Thursday, August 28th. I
thought I'd relay the information.

My background:
5000+ jumps
107 cutaways (No, i don't need to learn how to pack, a lot of test
jumps and films.)
About 20 unplanned cutaways.
21 years jumping, AFF I/E, Static Line I/E, Full time instructor at Perris, AFF Course Director for USPA.

Equipment Background
Rig- Javelin, Articulated harness (Rings top and bottom), RSL and Cypres equipped.
Soft Reserve pillow
Main, Stiletto 135
Reserve- PD143R
I wear my leg straps and chest strap quite tight.

The jump:
A great AFF Level 4, the student did well, I watched deployment on the
student's canopy, and hung around to give a thumbs up for the camera. This put everything happening a little lower than usual, so I threw the main out at about 2100, as opposed to the usual 2500 since I've gotten older and hopefully wiser.

The main opened into a severe spin. There were no line twists, but I
don't know what caused the spin, as I could not see the left side of
the canopy. After the usual playing around with it, I decided to get
rid of it. My procedures are grab cutaway, grab reserve, pull cutaway,
pull reserve. I went for the cutaway handle, and to my surprise, it was
on the LEFT side of my chest.

I grabbed it, and reached for the reserve handle. It was somewhere under my left armpit. I could only touch it with my thumb, and not grab it. My theory is that a combination of the severe spin and the articulated harness allowed the handles to move so far. I had also practiced hooking my thumb between the reserve pillow and
the housing. I was unable to do it. I then pulled the cutaway handle, as I was not accomplishing anything in my attempt to find the reserve handle.

After pulling the cutaway, I continued to search for the reserve
pillow. I was unable to find it. I theorize that it tucked under the
main lift web as the harness slid back into position. That theory took
a couple of days to figure out. Being honest, I have my sincere doubts that I would have found the handle within the 6 seconds of working time that I had left. My RSL prevented me from knowing the answer.
I have since modified my rig to include a standard ripcord on the
reserve. This should also serve as a reminder that backup devices,
whether they be RSL or AAD can save your life, no matter what your
experience.

Please don't make this into a debate thread, there have been enough. I just wanted to share the experience, so people could make informed decisions.

Rick Horn
D-6277 AFFI/E
USPA AFF Course Director "

[HeatherB 0]

So, possible lessons include?

- Don't pull low

- Pillow reserve handles are harder to grab

- Wear your harness tight
(I know he said he did, but it can only help..and I've seen so many people wear their stuff really loose).

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

I find it very funny that you are on the fence with airbags, but hold onto an RSL like its the holy grail. So only devices YOU approve of are OK? I think you still have tons to learn about skydiving. I do too. But I listen to others who have much more experince than me...Not argue for the sake of arguing.

Like Rick Horn? If you want to say he screwed up, fine. If someone with 5000 jumps can do so, it's seems a bit immodest for the rest of us to presume superiority, no? Pride is behind a lot of the fatal accidents in the sport.

It's not a holy grail to me, sorry, Ron, that's you AGAIN making up beliefs for others. I just think you could argue your case without BS statements like 100% of the time non fuckups could do fine without an RSL, or everyone who jumps only with their AAD is dependent on them. Absolute statements are misleading, and rarely true.

There's no reason for me to disconnect mine. There's good reasons for others to do so.

[Ron 7]

Quote

Like Rick Horn? If you want to say he screwed up, fine. If someone with 5000 jumps can do so, it's seems a bit immodest for the rest of us to presume superiority, no? Pride is behind a lot of the fatal accidents in the sport

Failure to train is a bigger factor. Maybe not in Ricks case, but in most. Folks who trust a device over training are a gigantic danger. Folks like Rick who train all the time AND have the cool toys are not.

Quote

It's not a holy grail to me

Then why do you argue the RSL is perfect so often when I point out the problems it can create? I don't go around saying that people should not jump them...In fact I say the opposite, but I want people to know they are not perfect and can in fact kill you...But you ALWAYS jump in and claim I am saying something I am not.

Quote

or everyone who jumps only with their AAD is dependent on them.

Thats a simple fact. If you NEED them to jump you are dependant on them...Thats fact. No matter what you think, if you NEED "A" to do "B" you are dependant on "A". You could try to debate if thats bad, but not that its a fact. I DEPEND on my main to work, but I have a reserve. I DEPEND on my harness to not fall apart, but I check it for wear. I DEPEND on my rigger to pack my reserve so I don't just hand it to anyone to pack.

And it is a simple fact that some people have to have an AAD or RSL to allow them to jump. I think thats a bad mindset. I have an AAD, but I will jump without it since I don't DEPEND on it since I train like my life depends on my abilities (and in fact one of my rigs does not have an AAD and I jump it a bunch).

That is a much safer person than someone who just has an AAD and will not jump without it.

In fact if you bothered to ever read my claims about a RSL (Even in THIS THREAD) I have said a bunch of times:

Quote

The problem is not lack of an RSL but people not bothering to train. This is a sport that is getting so "safe" due to all the gizmos that people are not spending enough time trying to stay alive. They are instead turning that focus into other much less important things.

You want an RSL? Fine. But you should know that it can very well kill you. And it does nothing that you yourself can't do if you bother to train like your life depends on it.

It amazes me how people spend a ton of money to hire coaches to learn how to do all kinds of stuff that in the end does not matter one bit. People plan trips to the tunnel to learn to fly on their heads, but when was the last time any of these folks were in a hanging harness? When was the last time they talked to an instructor about different malfunctions? When was the last time they talked to a rigger about gear, other than which canopy swoops better?

It amazes me how people spend so much time and money training things that will not save their life, and no time or money on things that will.

And

Quote

In fact my advice on RSL's has ALWAYS been keep one till you have your first mal. Then *IF* you pulled both handles, make a choice. If you didn't pull both, then do some pushups, retrain like hell, and keep jumping an RSL till you pull both handles.

But some people seem to think that an RSL is magical and will will save them if they are stupid.

So I have always tried to remind folks that RSL's are not always going to save you, RSL's CAN kill you, and proper training should be the main focus over safety toys. Hell I even tell people to jump them till they have experienced a malfunction.

Now, go try and twist those words into something else.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,400]

>Rick made several mistakes that lead to that RSL story. One was
>wearing his harness so lose that it could shift. He even admits that.

No, he said it was quite tight.

The point here is that RSL's can save someone even if they do everything right, and have loads of experience and are current etc. The odds of that happening are generally low, but they are there. If a jumper wishes protection against that sort of problem, they may well decide to use an RSL.

[Ron 7]

Quote

No, he said it was quite tight.

Yep, Im wrong. I remember the harness shift and just incorrectly remembered the reason. to be honest I have a hard time imagining another reason for a properly sized and worn rig twisting that much..Not that I do not believe Rick didn't have it on right, but I ask cause I wonder how it happend. Maybe the rig was not designed for him, or it was a bad fit?

Quote

The point here is that RSL's can save someone even if they do everything right

And my point is they can also kill someone that did everything right.

Quote

The odds of that happening are generally low, but they are there

For both outcomes yes they are low, but BOTH can happen, not just one.

Quote

If a jumper wishes protection against that sort of problem, they may well decide to use an RSL

Yep, and like I have said before I never tell people not to use them. I tell them to know both sides prove they can handle a "normal" mal and then make a personal choice.

I just want them to know both sides. And I fail to see how that is bad advice.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

>Rick made several mistakes that lead to that RSL story. One was
>wearing his harness so lose that it could shift. He even admits that.

No, he said it was quite tight.

The point here is that RSL's can save someone even if they do everything right, and have loads of experience and are current etc. The odds of that happening are generally low, but they are there. If a jumper wishes protection against that sort of problem, they may well decide to use an RSL.

I'm having trouble understanding what might cause the cutaway pillow to end up under a jumpers left armpit on a properly adjusted (presumable properly designed) harness.

I've had plenty of mals, most of which were spinning, on second hand gear that did not fit perfectly, and the cutaway pillow has always been where it belongs. I've never even needed to get a visual to find it.

Aside from harness adjustment, two other mistakes were choosing a pillow reserve handle, and pulling so low. A camera jump is not just another skydive. The intelligent choice is to pull a little higher than normal, since there is potential for more going wrong on deployment.

For Great Deals on Gear

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

I just want them to know both sides. And I fail to see how that is bad advice.

Not sure it's bad advice, but you come across as very anti-RSL. You could be pro-better-training without being anti-RSL. You're in a position where people listen to what you say (or at least would if you didn't sound like such an ass ). That's great if that gets them to practice emergency procedures more. That's bad, IMO, if it gets them to disconnect their RSL because they believe it's a death trap. If you really believe RSLs are death traps, then maybe that's what you're trying for. I just don't think that's the case. How many people will choose not to use an RSL and then not go practice their emergency procedures any more than they would have if they kept the RSL? I think most people, RSL or not, don't practice emergency procedures, other than touching their handles as they board the plane or before exit, as often as they probably should. Last thing I'd wanna tell them is to disconnect their RSLs!

Dave

[Ron 7]

Quote

Not sure it's bad advice, but you come across as very anti-RSL. You could be pro-better-training without being anti-RSL.

What I am is Anti-"RSL's are perfect, and you would be an idiot to not jump with one."

Quote

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1770902#1770902

no canopies higher than 3K...THAT with the no RSL, and no AAD..shit..this situation was doomed way before he left the plane.

Some people think you are as good as dead if you don't have an AAD or RSL. That is bad thinking IMO. But its quite common.

So maybe I come accross as Anti-AAD. But if people bother to read what I write they can see thats not true...I am against trusting the damn thing and not training like your life depends on it.

We should NEVER forget that our #1 job is to survive. And while adding saftey toys is a part of that plan, training and practice can prevent needing the toys in the first place.

The 1-10-100 principle (or "A stich in time, saves nine). If I fix the problem at the first step it prevents me from spending more energy fixing it latter.

The thing is most "saves" are nothing that a jumper could not have done themselves if they planned and trained correctly.

The safest and best fix is to do the right thing, and the only way to do that is train, not depend on the RSL or AAD.

If I plan a safe jump with a safe pull altitude and jump a safe canopy (all dependant on the person). I can fix most problems before they start. However, if a take a newer jumper, put him on a head down bigway, with a canopy known to take a long time to open and has a higher mal rate...Who is safer? Fix the problem early. Problem is many times we put people into this exact situation and they don't die since nothing bad happend...We assume that its OK to do it more.

Not only is the dive above the guys head, the plan bad, and the equipment not ideal, now I have a jumper that treats the dive as "normal"...Problem is, something happens and now he is already behind the saftey curve by being set up to fail. He might manage to pull it off, or his saftey toys might save his ass.

Quote

How many people will choose not to use an RSL and then not go practice their emergency procedures any more than they would have if they kept the RSL? I think most people, RSL or not, don't practice emergency procedures, other than touching their handles as they board the plane or before exit, as often as they probably should. Last thing I'd wanna tell them is to disconnect their RSLs!

I'd rather they realize that they can fix most problems before they need the safety toys if they use their head and train.

If that person knows both the good and bad then decides that an RSL or AAD is for them. Then they are safer than just someone who got an RSL or AAD because they think jumping without them is death on a stick.

Skydiving is an active sport...You must take an ACTIVE roll in staying alive, not just trust some 3 dollar shackle.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Failure to train is a bigger factor. Maybe not in Ricks case, but in most. Folks who trust a device over training are a gigantic danger. Folks like Rick who train all the time AND have the cool toys are not.
...

Then why do you argue the RSL is perfect so often when I point out the problems it can create? I don't go around saying that people should not jump them...In fact I say the opposite, but I want people to know they are not perfect and can in fact kill you...But you ALWAYS jump in and claim I am saying something I am not.

First off, show me any post where I've said the RSL is perfect.

What I argue with is statements you make that suggest that only idiots need these devices. Those statements contribute to a climate where newer people want to look cool by declining to use safety devices, proclaiming: "I'm good enough and confident enough to remove these training wheels." You're very qualified to make that call. I can't say I believe all of them were. IMO, it's their right to make risky choices, though I suspect it's the wrong one.

Or equate 'always jump with these devices' to 'needs these devices.' A choice is not the same as a need.

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

Skydiving is an active sport...You must take an ACTIVE roll in staying alive, not just trust some 3 dollar shackle.

I totally agree. But take those guys at WFFC last year for example... How sure are you they weren't really up on their emergency procedures? Seems likely that they weren't. But do you know that? Do you know that they didn't share your opinion about RSLs and training? Maybe they thought that they were so well trained, there would never likely be a situation where an RSL would make any difference to them.

Until I'm convinced that well trained, current skydivers don't go in from low cutaways or not pulling both handles, I won't know how people manage to die that way and I'll choose to stack the odds in my favor, which means both training and using a skyhook.

When I find out only idiots need RSLs, I'll disconnect mine... Course they probably didn't think they were idiots either, huh?

Dave

[mattjw916 2]

Quote

What I argue with is statements you make that suggest that only idiots need these devices.

There is no way on earth that any literate person could draw that conclusion from _anything_ that Ron wrote here. Quit arguing for the sake of arguing and go skydive instead.

Those of us that jump a lot encounter many many people that WON'T jump without an AAD or an RSL, period, under any circumstances. THOSE are the people that Ron and many others take issue with because they either lack the confidence in their abilities, or the training, to maintain altitude awareness, deploy a canopy, or pull both handles in the event of a mal prior to impact.

I personally know of several people that WON'T jump without those additional devices on something as simple as a solo H&P to demo a canopy. What are the odds that you need either of those devices on a solo? Infinitesimal I'd wager, yet people, due to pure device dependancy, won't do it.

Anyone can screw up with or without those devices and they may be saved or killed by them. The choice to use or not use them is not as clear as some represent it as being and should be evaluated by each skydiver after careful consideration of the facts. If anyone thinks they NEED an RSL or AAD to skydive, they really should reevaluate their choice in hobbies.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

because they either lack the confidence in their abilities, or the training, to maintain altitude awareness, deploy a canopy, or pull both handles in the event of a mal prior to impact

And this is where you draw the same, IMO incorrect, conclusion as Ron.

Choosing to use an AAD or RSL says nothing about confidence or training.

Sure, it CAN. But I don't believe it's true for the vast majority of jumpers that choose to use those devices, which have proven themselves over time to save lives. Both have killed too... an important thing to know before choosing to use either one of them. But far more have been saved by them or could have been saved by them than have been killed by them. It's a personal choice, at least in the US at most dropzones. Choosing to use them is not a sign of poor decision making or training or confidence. Based on accident reports, it's a pretty good choice.

Dave

[Ron 7]

Quote

What I argue with is statements you make that suggest that only idiots need these devices

Show me where I said that. You make a ton of claims that are not based in fact.

I have said only idiots RELY on them. That is a BIG difference.

Quote

Or equate 'always jump with these devices' to 'needs these devices.' A choice is not the same as a need.

Look this is simple. If you will not jump without a device, but will with it. You are dependant on it. Thats not a hard concept to grasp. If you will not skydive without an RSL or AAD you are dependant.

Now, I have two rigs one with an AAD and one without. I jump BOTH. I PREFER to jump the AAD rig.

I am not device dependant since I will do without what I would do with.

You can continue to make false claims all day. You can continue to try and debate english if you like alone. I have no idea why you feel the need to try continue and ignore what I write and twist my words just to argue.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

Quote

I totally agree. But take those guys at WFFC last year for example... How sure are you they weren't really up on their emergency procedures?

The proof is in the accident.

18. 8/06/2005 Rantoul, IL 4000 Jumps
Heavily loaded Vengeance, deployed at normal altitude, resulting in a spinning mal. Jumper rode it ~10 revolutions before cutting away at 800-1000 feet. He then took a fairly long delay before deploying his reserve at a very low altitude. Jumper impacted at reserve line stretch.

Lesson: The jumper lost track of altitude and rode a mal well below the recommended altitudes in the SIM. He then took a long delay after the cutaway. An RSL might have prevented this, but remembering that emergency procedures are a two-handle operation and maintaining altitude awareness would have fixed it as well. RSL’s will not help with altitude awareness. Establish a hard deck and PAY ATTENTION TO IT.

This jumper blew past almost every hard deck you can imagine while under a spinning mal. He rode a highly loaded HP canopy 10 revolutions before cutting away. He then took a *long* delay from 800-1000 feet. The jumper lost track of altitude. *I have cut away from 800 feet without an RSL and I am still here.* I had MUCH less experience than this jumper. But I knew that from 800 feet I could not take a delay.

An RSL will not give you altitude awareness. An RSL might have saved him, but using both handles would have had the same chance.

The next one:
19. 8/10/2005 Rantoul, IL. 80 Jumps
Jumper cutaway and was in freefall for a few seconds before he went to his reserve. they are speculating he was around 1500 feet when he cutaway and 300 when he deployed. losing altitude awareness is not something an RSL can fix.

This jumper went from 1500 to 300 before he deployed. Yes, and RSL would have maybe saved him, but why in the world would you smoke past 1,000 feet with nothing out?

In BOTH of these deaths its pretty clear that they both failed to remember that emergency procedures are a TWO part operation.

Hey, people can screw up and these two show that experience (as in jump numbers) does not mean you will not.

There are many malfunctions that never end in an RSL or AAD save, instead the jumper just pulls both handles.

Quote

Until I'm convinced that well trained, current skydivers don't go in from low cutaways or not pulling both handles, I won't know how people manage to die that way and I'll choose to stack the odds in my favor, which means both training and using a skyhook.

The key is in the training. I think if you really think about it, you know at least one jumper that does not share the "Train" part of that equation and instead just uses the "RSL" part.

Quote

When I find out only idiots need RSLs, I'll disconnect mine... Course they probably didn't think they were idiots either, huh?

Again only idiots rely on them. And one thing most dead skydivers have in common was they were not gonna burn in. People who hook in think they are skilled enough also.

Just goes to show that people need to TRAIN MORE huh?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

Quote

Choosing to use an AAD or RSL says nothing about confidence or training.

Only jumping because you have one, or going on more dangerous skydives with one that you would not do without DOES.

Its really simple. If you will not jump without one, then you do not have the confidence to jump without one. That is a fact no matter how you want to play it. The question is why?

Quote

Choosing to use them is not a sign of poor decision making or training or confidence.

Nope, but depending on them is.

And it DOES speak volumes on your confidence level if you would not jump without one.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334