RSL, good or bad ?

[Ron 7]

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who cares if you get line twists on your big square docile canopy. you will certainly be able to kick out.

Dude, there have been fatalities where guys had enough line twist on ROUNDS that they didnt survive the landing.

Line twists are better than nothing, but line twists are not good, and they can happen no matter what canopy you jump.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[chachi 0]

i was maybe simplifying things a little. in most cases the canopy will still fly straight, and not spin to the top thus choking off the canopy.

[bob.dino 0]

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I think it has more to do with the fact that there are so few containers available for anyone who wants a small, zippy main and a sanely sized reserve.

What containers are available for those that like sanely-sized reserves with their small 'n' fast canopies?

[kelpdiver 2]

"We can accommodate just about any combination of canopies possible.
Do you want a 200 square foot reserve and a 109 square foot main? Not a problem! We can build a Wings or Wings EXT that will be perfect for you and your canopies!"

How that 109/200 looks, can't say. Mine are about the same 210/220.

[sundevil777 93]

I don't think Infinities have limitations on the main reserve combination.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[JohnMitchell 14]

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What containers are available for those that like sanely-sized reserves with their small 'n' fast canopies?

Infinity has the main and reserve container sized separately for your canopies. I have an Infinity that holds a 135 Stiletto and a 200 foot Raven Reserve. It looks good and works really well.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Dude, there have been fatalities where guys had enough line twist on ROUNDS that they didnt survive the landing.

Line twists are better than nothing, but line twists are not good, and they can happen no matter what canopy you jump.

Fatalities from line twists on rounds? You're
sh!++ing me! Seriously? I sure can't recall that but would love to learn more.


I don't mind line twists at all, I mind line twists that send my canopy spiraling down at high speed. Line twists are not the danger, the uncontrollable spiral is.

[NWFlyer 2]

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What containers are available for those that like sanely-sized reserves with their small 'n' fast canopies?

Infinity has the main and reserve container sized separately for your canopies. I have an Infinity that holds a 135 Stiletto and a 200 foot Raven Reserve. It looks good and works really well.

John, I didn't pay that close attention when I saw your rig. You have a pic you can post? I'm curious how it looks.

[Ron 7]

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Fatalities from line twists on rounds? You're
sh!++ing me! Seriously? I sure can't recall that but would love to learn more

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7/18/2001 Tecumseh, MI. Age: 58 Jumps: 1193
Description: After deploying his main, this jumper had a line-over malfunction. He cutaway while spinning, and had severe line twists on the (round) reserve, which resulted in an unsurvivable landing.

Here is another.

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3/13/1999 Lake Wales, FL. Age 61 Jumps: 1723
Description: After a four way jump, the deceased suffered a violently spinning malfunction on his Startrac 2 main canopy, which he cutaway from at a low altitude. While unstable, at about 800-900 ft, he deployed his reserve. It (a Swift) opened into into serious line twists, potentially due to his unstable attitude during reserve deployment. He landed extremely hard under a partially-inflated reserve. The reserve was found to still have about 5 line twists. Reportedly, the risers were tangled around his throat, perhaps strangling him during decent. He weighed about 215 lbs and was jumping a Racer with a Pull-out main deployment system. He had been involved in the sport for 35 years.

A Startrac is very docile, so is a swift.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[JohnMitchell 14]

Thanks for those examples, Ron. Now the Swift is a square reserve, not a round. The other one still confounds me. I've had line twists on round chute many times, but never an issue other than kicking out. Was the round reserve streamered? That can lead to line twists. I guess I'm just trying to separate cause and effect. I can imagine a graceless landing with line twists on a fully inflated round reserve, but I can't imagine it landing fatally hard.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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John, I didn't pay that close attention when I saw your rig. You have a pic you can post? I'm curious how it looks.

Here ya go.

[sundevil777 93]

That looks like you have a large main and tiny reserve!

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Ron 7]

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Thanks for those examples, Ron. Now the Swift is a square reserve, not a round

I know. The origianl Swift was a 5cell reserve (Swift + was 7 cells). But it was also a boat and not a canopy that I would see line twists as normally something serious. I just showed it as an example that even a docile canopy can be a problem with twists. You are correct that a higher loaded canopy will be worse however, so people should pick a reserve using common sense, not ego or style.

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I've had line twists on round chute many times, but never an issue other than kicking out. Was the round reserve streamered? That can lead to line twists

If a round twists up enough, it gets smaller. While I agree that 99% of the time a round with line twists is not an issue. It can be.

My point is simply that while stats show that you are infact safer with an RSL. I want people to know that they can infact *cause* problems and the only time it is useful is when people screw up due to lack of training.

I would rather the focus be on better training and drilling, then ADD an RSL if you want. Rather than just assume an RSL will save you and not put any effort into training and drilling.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[tso-d_chris 0]

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What containers are available for those that like sanely-sized reserves with their small 'n' fast canopies?

Racer, Infinity and Wings. There may be others as well.

For Great Deals on Gear

[kelpdiver 2]

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I want people to know that they can infact *cause* problems and the only time it is useful is when people screw up due to lack of training.

ahem. They also have the speed element going for them - the only time you beat your RSL is when you go out of sequence. So the word "only" seems a bit out of place.

[mattjw916 2]

I don't think that is what Ron meant though.

I believe he was trying to indicate an RSL is only really useful when you _fail_ to pull silver. If you pulled it, you didn't need the RSL. If you perform your EPs properly the time an RSL nets you is inconsequential.

RSLs do have their place, but they are not fool-proof and can and have caused problems, and that is really the spirit of Ron's comment as I understand them.

edit: kant spel

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[chachi 0]

i think rsl or not if you pull a and dont pull b your an idiot and darwin will take care of you.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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They also have the speed element going for them - the only time you beat your RSL is when you go out of sequence.

That speed is exactly what causes problems with RSLs. In some situations, it can save lives. However, when altitude is not a factor, a stable reserve deployment is preferable to an immediate one.

The energy of a spinning malfunction has to dissipate, this process will begin immediately following the cutaway, exactly the same time an RSL pulls the reserve ripcord pin.

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[JohnMitchell 14]

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That looks like you have a large main and tiny reserve!

135 main, 200 reserve. Not bad, eh? Kelly doesn't advertise sizes, they just say "What main and reserve do you have?" and custom build from there.

[kelpdiver 2]

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That speed is exactly what causes problems with RSLs. In some situations, it can save lives. However, when altitude is not a factor, a stable reserve deployment is preferable to an immediate one.

How often is altitude not a factor in a cutaway situation? Sadly, as seen in the fatalities last year, it quite often is.

So it can be qualified, but the speed has to have some utility.

[diablopilot 2]

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However, when altitude is not a factor, a stable reserve deployment is preferable to an immediate one.

When is altitude not a factor?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Ron 7]

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ahem. They also have the speed element going for them - the only time you beat your RSL is when you go out of sequence. So the word "only" seems a bit out of place.

Well the wonderful thing about not having an RSL is you can decide if you want the reserve to open NOW or later. With an RSL you have no choice.

An RSL can cause problems that can be avoided 100% by proper procedures.

Have a hard deck, don't go blowing past it.
Pull both handles.
If you are low don't take a delay.

See what you fail to admit is a person can deploy the reserve before a cutaway, with a cutaway, right after, you can take a delay.....ECT all without an RSL.

With an RSL you can only do one.

If you wrap on opening with someone. Well do you want an RSL in a wrap? In most cases you want to be able to fall away from the mess. Thats why most CReW folks don't use an RSL. Theres one case where it could cause a problem.

And most RSL "saves" is the direct result of someone not performing proper procedures.

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How often is altitude not a factor in a cutaway situation? Sadly, as seen in the fatalities last year, it quite often is

Clearly you didn't read the incident reports.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2036839#2036839

#3. . 2/6/2005 Hawaii, 170 Jumps
Malfunction cutaway low. Deployed main around 1500-2000 feet. Cutaway at about 400 feet went belly to earth before the reserve pull. Had lost a canopy about a year before. This may have made him try and stay with the malfunction too long.

He cutaway at 400 feet. That is WAY below the hard deck. He was screwed when he cut away, an RSL might not have helped. Cutting away before he was at 400 feet might have.

#6. 2/23/2005 AZ. 163 Jumps
Malfunction with lazy cutaway pull resulting in only one side releasing. Jumper then delayed reserve pull until it was too late.

Lazy cutaway and failure to fix it till late.

# 12. 6/5/2005 Sky Knights, WI. 100 Jumps
Malfunction with cutaway and late, some reports say no, reserve pull

Failed to pull the other handle. Emergency procedures are a TWO handle operation.

#18. 8/06/2005 Rantoul, IL 4000 Jumps
Heavily loaded Vengeance, deployed at normal altitude, resulting in a spinning mal. Jumper rode it ~10 revolutions before cutting away at 800-1000 feet. He then took a fairly long delay before deploying his reserve at a very low altitude. Jumper impacted at reserve line stretch.

Cutaway low, lost track of altitude. When you don't know where you are, dont take a delay.

19. 8/10/2005 Rantoul, IL. 80 Jumps
Jumper cutaway and was in freefall for a few seconds before he went to his reserve. They are speculating he was around 1500 feet when he cutaway and 300 when he deployed. losing altitude awareness is not something an RSL can fix.

Ditto.

One cutaway way too low.
Four failed to pull the reserve. Two might have been saved by an RSL, but all 4 would have also lived if they pulled the reserve.

All four lost track of altitude. An RSL will not give you altitude awareness.

BTW there were two fatalities this year that were the result of "safety" equipment.

21. 8/21/2005 Marana Skydiving Center, AZ. 1 Tandem 2 S/L Jumps
On his second Static Line jump, the student exited well, but when he went to pull the Practice Ripcord, he instead mistakenly pulled his cutaway handle. The jerk from the release of the deploying main parachute flipped him on his back and when the RSL released his reserve in this position, the pilot chute shot between his legs and tangled around one of his legs. The pilot chute remained tangled around his leg until impact

24. 10/16/2005 Skydive the Rockies, CO. 4000+
Low Pull, CYPRES fire with two canopies out resulting in an un-survivable landing.

With out the RSL in the first one, or the AAD in the second these two might still be alive.

So we have 2 people that might have been saved if they had an RSL. But they could also have been saved by not taking a long delay.

And we have two that died and had no options since the safety devices contributed to the accident.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[darnknit 0]

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When is altitude not a factor?

when you have some.

blue stuff,
p.j.

pulling is cool. keep it in the skin

[tso-d_chris 0]

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That speed is exactly what causes problems with RSLs. In some situations, it can save lives. However, when altitude is not a factor, a stable reserve deployment is preferable to an immediate one.

How often is altitude not a factor in a cutaway situation? Sadly, as seen in the fatalities last year, it quite often is.

So it can be qualified, but the speed has to have some utility.

I believe altitude is not a major factor on the majority of malfunctions. For example, I have had eight cutaways, some with RSL, some without, and altitude has yet to be a factor.

I have found one hand on each handle to be beneficial, however.

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[tso-d_chris 0]

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When is altitude not a factor?

Good point. Altitude is a factor on all skydives. My point was that in most cutaway scenarios, the altitude the RSL saves is not going to be the difference between life and death.

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