James La Barrie (www.amazethecustomer.com) articles

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Just wondering what you all think about the James La Barrie articles that have been published on dropzone.com, the latest being "Preventing Subjectivity From Destroying Your Dropzone".

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

About half the story is anecdote. I would agree, though, that a lot of small businesses really don't put a lot of thought into their operations. It doesn't take much to go from "This guy knows what he's doing," to "Wow, this is... REALLY... sketchy." I've worked with a number of freelance artists over the years and most of them have been extremely unreliable. Being organized and reliable is a big part of putting your best foot forward and the local DZ and wind tunnel seem to do a pretty good job of that.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[PhreeZone 15]

I think its a good starting point to increase professionalism and perceptions among outside parties.

I spent this summer traveling to some DZ's and the experiences varied widely from what I could see.

I went to DZ's that had a greeters at the door to meet the tandems and walk them through the process to ensure that customers knew where to go. I was at another DZ that had a small sign at the road that said Skydive with an arrowat the corner and left the customer to wonder up and down the road looking for the exact location to go let alone where to go once on property. A different DZ had no signs where manifest was, what customers needed to do and no one bothered to help me even as an experienced jumper know where to go to put my gear or where to fill out waivers. In most cases customers just wonder around until they saw someone else go somewhere and they followed the herd in essence.

Initial impressions varied a lot from the experiences I saw. Some customers loved the whole process and others just looked lost.

Some DZ's were happy sending customers to old, nasty bathrooms or porta-potties halfway across the airport and others seemed to at least clean the bathrooms but had issues like waste cans overflowing and leaky rusty fixtures. These all leave impressions on people that are spending $150-400 dollars with the business. If I was to go to an amusement park or Ski area and spend $100 for the day I would never want to return if I saw poor facilities that looked like no one had cleaned them in days. One DZ was so bad that my wife left the DZ to go into town to use the bathrooms at a store since it looked like no one had cleaned it in days.

A lot of people that are instructors seem to forget that complete strangers are walking in, laying down several hundred dollars which is for a lot of people the majority of their excess money for a few weeks or month and trusting them for a skydive. They see the person as another $30 in their pocket and strive to push as many people through as possible to get money to live off of for the week and do not care about the customers experience. I was on a DZ where I have heard staff talking about "They got the groupon so I don't care what they think, they get what they pay for".

Some thing that I think almost all DZ's are missing on right now is gathering feedback from their customers. I see a lot of DZ's sending out emails to their tandem customers as a marketing ploy to get them to do another jump and some are even asking simple questions about their experiences but I'm not seeing many do that same thing for their repeat experienced jumper base. Most will send out a newsletter or something but none that I have received from the dozen or so DZ's that I get mail from ever ask for things like "What events do you want to see happen, What changes to the facilities would you like to see, What type of organizers should we offer" and really trying to develop their experienced jumpers and have the jumpers feel like they have a stake in the DZ.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[JohnMitchell 14]

Interesting stuff. Thanks for the input.

I try to entertain the passengers as they go thru the process. Getting suited up, briefed and even waiting for the plane, I feel a good DZ tries to keep the excitement up and the tandem students entertained and upbeat, similar to a good river guide on a float trip. It's not just paddling the boat, it's making sure people are enjoying themselves.

[NWFlyer 2]

You only have to go to the Yelp reviews for your local dropzone to see how much some of the "little things" matter to your tandem customers. Does every dropzone need a shiny new bathroom like the one pictured in the article? Maybe not, but clean and functional goes a long way. Clear communications about what to expect at the dropzone also help a lot - a lot of the negative reviews I've seen have been around wait times, even when the wait times were due to weather issues. People need to expect to be out there for a few hours.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[jimmytavino 16]

good posts. one and all.

be sure to specifically INVITE previous tandem jumpers to return ... for a second visit. try to do it a Few times after they have enjoyed their skydive.... It's too bad , if most of them simply leave, rather than feel welcome to linger,,, smiling that smile that we've all seen.
track the return visits,, and ENCOURAGE some of the ones who you think might "get it". increase business and keep the dz busy...
James catches the readers attention right away with his lead in, because the message is a good one and needs to be considered and applied.

You need 3 basic things, (imho ) to have a good dz. Plane(s) People and Facilities.

might as well make the most of it and do things, right. Signage is very important.. Get creative, stay economical but POST some signs for those who Don't GET It!!!

[GAjumper84 0]

As a relatively new jumper, I have only experienced being at two drop zones, but have seen enough to chime in with an opinion. I think DZOs could gain a great deal of extra business if they followed the writer's advice. For experienced jumpers, we are there to see our friends and jump, not really that concerned about the finer details of the business. However, it could very easily factor into coming back to that location if there are other DZs nearby or if you were visiting on a trip.
But since most of the money seems (to me anyway) to come from tandem and student income with much higher profit margins, that portion of the business could definately be increased if attention is paid to the details. Everyone here posting is right. People come in to spend $200-$400 for a 20-30 minute plane ride and skydiving experience, their expectations are high. Not only of the experience of the skydive, but overall service as well. I am not sure about other DZs, but at mine the student retention rate to completion is very low. If the business could increase retention by even a few percentage points, it would become much more profitable. I am kind of curious now, what retention rate to graduation do other DZs around the US have? I would imagine that would be an easy metric to look at to evaluate the performance of a DZ. Tandems would be harder, maybe go off of conversion to AFF/IAD/SL to evaluate a tandem program? Or you could set up a referral program and evaluate referrals per tandem. Anyway, I think the point I am trying to make is that DZs are a business, and should be run as such.

[JohnMitchell 14]

GAjumper84

at mine the student retention rate to completion is very low. If the business could increase retention by even a few percentage points, it would become much more profitable.

The problem with retention is that most people want to make just one or two jumps, then move on to the next thing. The best DZ's in the world don't have that high of a retention rate, simply because people lack the desire and money to skydive a lot, mostly the desire.

Welcome to our (your) sport. It's just not for everyone.

[Boomerdog 0]

From the perspective of a noob who spends his weekends (with his skydiving wife) at the DZ every weekend possible...even in the cold winter.
A few quick points.
Cleanliness and orderly appearance do matter to first time customers.
Every first time customer be they tandem or IAD should be considered a potential AFF student.
Don't smother but don't neglect. Don't leave a first time customer to wonder about and formulate their own opinions. Provide a tour, explain what is going on as fun jumpers pack for the next jump. Show them the how's and why's of Manifest;explain the importance of weather and safety. Perhaps doing this first before watching the liability film might help minimize the yips they have about jumpong in the first place.
Find a way to get them involved in the ops tempo rhythm and vibe of the DZ. Make them feel a pert of it.
The DZO might consider fun jumpers who he/she trusts to show first customers around...be a DZ diplomat so to speak. As a fun jumper now myself with my own equipment, I know the jump fees I pay will not keep the DZ in business. Therefore, if I want my DZ to be there for me to jump, I too have an interest to see that new customers are treated properly all of course, at the direction of the DZO.
I've had the priviledge of talking to some first time customers when they approach me. I'd like to think I've been careful but honest in my comments to them. Many of them want to know why I skydive etc etc. and ya never know, they may show up some day to begin AFF.

[kallend 1,658]

I believe Roger Nelson had this pretty much figured out a long time ago.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[theplummeter 14]

I do find it funny that above the article is a picture of Mile Hi Skydving's Cessna 206. Mile Hi has the fanciest urinals and toilets of any dropzone I have ever seen.

[grimmie 177]

It's a pretty simple concept.

When someone comes to do a tandem jump, the instructor needs to treat the person like this is the best jump he (or she) has ever done. It might be the instructors 10 or 11th jump of the day and it will be soon forgotten, but for the first timer, they will remember every single detail, including the attitude and what is said by the instructor.

And for the regular fun jumpers, treat them fairly and appreciate their loyalty.

[Quagmirian 40]

It's a difficult one in my opinion. I would find it difficult to enjoy the DZ experience if there weren't decent facilities, yet at the same time I want the DZO to also be focusing on providing great skydiving as well. It must be hard to juggle it all and please everyone.

[wmw999 2,160]

I'm going to say that clean bathrooms are essential, with the needed supplies.

IOW -- if there's no water and you have porta-potties, make sure that they don't smell, that there's always enough paper and hand sanitizer, and that the area right in front of it isn't a mudhole. There should be a trash can right next to it (for those beer cans that end up in the porta-pottie).

If you have a regular bathroom, the toilets shouldn't be tippy, the faucets should work, the floors should be cleaned regularly, and (again) there should be enough trash cans.

The Kano model talks about qualities for a product (which a skydiving experience is). Simplified, it says there are:

dissatisfiers (these are items that, if not present, will overshadow nearly everything else, but don't really add much to satisfaction when present -- and generally clean bathrooms are generally on this list)

satisfiers (expected things, but not quite as important as the dissatisfiers -- e.g. of course the bathroom should have TP and towels)

delighters (added things that make the item/experience memorable in a good way). note that carelessly-selected delighters won't delight everyone -- automatic posting of your video on Facebook will only delight some people

There's a roadside store/gas chain in the South that does, in fact, advertise their exceptionally large and clean bathrooms. And they are.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[feuergnom 22]

I'm still scratching my head wondering if this "article" is serious. but maybe thats because in my corner of the planet this is a non-issue

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

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wmw999

... The Kano model talks about qualities for a product (which a skydiving experience is)...

Very nice link for a thread like this one, thank you.

[pchapman 262]

Some skydivers have over the years been used to large, reasonably professional organizations, near large markets.

But many of us have been used to things like dropzones operating out of trailers or barns, sometimes with only portable toilets or or unheated, home made toilet buildings around. Even if there's a million dollar turbine aircraft sitting outside and not just C-182's, that's where the money goes, and operating out of some ancient WWII hangar with peeling paint isn't totally out of the ordinary.

So it can take some adjusting to get used the idea of actually providing a nice environment for the customer. The gut feeling can be, "Just because someone off the street is dropping $500 on their experience today, what right do those whuffos have to expect to walk into a nice building or have clean washrooms? This is AVIATION, don't they realize that?" It's hard to remember that even a $2 purchase at a coffee shop chain will likely get you a modern if rather over-trafficed washroom.

It can be hard for some skydivers to get their head around customer expectations from outside the skydiving world.

[stratostar 5]

I've seen it all, like most others the good, the bad, the ugly. However one the biggest problems I have seen is really bad managers or DZO's. Some the worst offenders are "clubs" where there is really no dzo in charge. A lot of the right hand don't know what the left is doing, and it takes a committee vote to get anything done.

Many the topics covered in this thread, I have heard get blown off "because we are a club, and not a business". Yea they totally fail to see that is not how the person who came out there and dropped 250 bucks on a tandem sees it..... they don't care what the name of the dz is, nor do they care if the word "club" is in the name, as far as they are concerned it is a business transaction and they show up with all the exceptions we see in this thread, as any good business would address.

The other thing is talking shit in front of the paying customers. I can't tell you how many times I have seen dzo's, instructors and club members running the show cussing out and bashing "other staff" in front of or in ear shot of a bunch of tdm's or customers.

In fact I've had it happen to me, twice. The last time it was because I was out in the LZ talking down students, on a club where I was ASKED to come there to help... I walk in after the students landed and was out of the blue yelled at directly in front of the guy that was my next tdm pax and his wife.

I was told I was fucking up the whole show by running radio and they "have fucking people to do that" (radio) and I was holding up the whole show, yet there sat two 182's with no one in them, so some how my radio control is now preventing two airplanes from flying.... anyway there was a lot of swearing and totally unprofessional.... but hey it's club and NOT a business, right.

When I told a couple board members what took place I was told if I didn't like it I could leave.... so leave I did with all my tdm gear and drove the 3hrs back home with out making any jumps and being out the six hrs time and gas to go there, to help them!

The bottom line is there is a whole lotta people running the show who should never be in charge at a lot of dropzones, because some of this shit is pretty basic... seen everything talked about in this thread on one dz and well that place closed because those "kids" running the place, did want listen to the customer feed back nor the more experienced professionals who were pointing the over flowing trash of mostly beer cans and the rest of the list. Shame too it was a long running dz with a lot of history, now gone.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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pchapman

... But many of us have been used to things like dropzones operating out of trailers or barns, sometimes with only portable toilets or or unheated, home made toilet buildings around. Even if there's a million dollar turbine aircraft sitting outside and not just C-182's, that's where the money goes, and operating out of some ancient WWII hangar with peeling paint isn't totally out of the ordinary ...

I like nice restroom facilities as much as anyone, but it doesn't bother me at all to be in a hangar built during the "golden age of aviation". Of course, I'm a pilot and like those things. Visiting the airport office, if it is different from the DZ, can reveal a lot of aviation history about the airport.

But also, I would think that in most cases, a dropzone operating at an airport that has been there for many years simply must use the facilities already available, unless they have a lot of money and can build/rebuild "modern" facilities, and can talk the FBO into letting them do that.

In other words, many dropzones do not even have the option of providing "modern facilities". They can spruce it up to some degree, but that might be all.

[pchapman 262]

Yeah that's the point.

If WE walked into the Pecos Parachute School from Fandango, we'd be thinking how cool all this aviation history was. Whuffos, maybe not so much.
(Ok, I might not trust the school's rigs, cough, cough).

[dzswoop717 5]

One of the things that hasn't been considered by any one is the fact that most small DZs rent the facilities that they use. If you are on a 5 year or less lease, it wouldn't be cost effective to dump 10k into fixing up the bathrooms like a 4 star resort. If your lease isn't renewed you have just given the landlord some free upgrades to his property. If the rest room is clean, stocked, and works it is good enough for me.

[denoyerj 0]

It is slightly different, but I had a bad experience at a DZ that I like to go to for the location. It is just a small hangar with a portapotty outside. I used to work at a DZ, so I understand the instructors talking about hot girls that are going to jump, but they kept it to themselves. It was away from any customers. However, I went with my wife who was my girlfriend at the time, for her second jump there. The TI was being very direct and blunt toward her when they were under canopy... Telling her how hot she was and asking her if he's inappropriately touched her enough. She waited to tell me all this after we left. If it would have been kept to him and the staff, that's cool. You can think what you want. But when you are making people, especially your customers, feel uncomfortable and what I consider sexual harassment... I will not be back.

[wmw999 2,160]

they don't have to be new. They do have to be clean and picked up. It doesn't take all that long to make them that way, and checking them a couple of times a day keeps them that way.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kallend 1,658]

Good info on toilets here:

www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/01/what-makes-a-good-toilet/282987/?google_editors_picks=true

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.