EVs, Aspirations vs Reality

[ryoder 1,384]

12 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Where did you grow up? I’ve always had a decent life here. Summers are great. In the winter I go trucking to get away for pay. I’m semi-retired and the driver shortage means I can work when I feel like it. I’m leaving for Cincinnati Thursday.

[Shudder]

Well, at least it's not Cleveland.

[olofscience 421]

7 hours ago, gowlerk said:

They are weak on long trips

Strange to be saying this when both bill and seth have said they enjoyed their long trips.

Also did you consider how much of a minority you are? You specifically do long-haul driving as a job...

Being in the UK or Europe hearing you guys talk about 1000+ mile road trips is quite funny, here many people would consider 300 miles pretty far. At 1000+ and you'll have a much bigger problem with visas, passports and understanding the local language (and local alphabet) than charging.

[gowlerk 1,912]

3 hours ago, olofscience said:

Also did you consider how much of a minority you are? You specifically do long-haul driving as a job...

And I hardly ever do long car trips. Yes, I bring a North American and a particularly western Canadian perspective to the question. I am pro-EV, not anti. I just think that the way to promote them is to focus on all their strengths because denying their weaknesses leaves one open to attack. Deniers of all kinds have an agenda and are not believable.  People want convenience and EVs deliver that if you have a home charger. They are inconvenient on a long road trip. Which is why I would like rent an ICE for one if faced with a long EV trip on a holiday. It is a practical solution to a short term problem. As a side note many of the people I know do rent vehicles for such trips already. Usually because they want to avoid putting so much mileage on their own cars. Renting with unlimited mileage can be a great deal at times.

[kallend 1,623]

19 hours ago, billvon said:

Replace panel with 200A panel, main breaker rated to protect grid connection.
Add solar plus hybrid inverter with small ($700) battery.
Set hybrid inverter max input to whatever the max power available from the grid is (50A say.)
Drive everything including the EV charger off the output of the hybrid inverter.

Nothing in that list should be contrary to NFPA or NEC codes - and pretty much all local building codes are based off those.

If you think that at age 78 I want to go up a utility pole and run new wires from the pole transformer to my house, you are seriously mistaken.

And by the time I rent or buy the equipment to bend and install 1.7 inch steel conduit as required by local code I might just as well pay a professional.

[SethInMI 145]

It's great to see all this chat about EVs. 

Some more details on charging since people were bringing it up.

As Ryoder mentioned, Teslas have a very asymmetric charge rate.  At low levels of charge, they can accept 250kW of power but this tapers off to around 50kW near 80% (iirc).  As a result, I don't charge much past 50% as a rule.  Here is my ideal all day charge drive pattern:

Leave home with 100% battery.
Drive 3.5 hrs until at 6%
Charge 7 minutes, add 100 miles
Drive 1.5 hours
Eat Lunch. Charge 30 minutes, get up to ~70%

Drive 2.5 hrs until back to 6%

Repeat short charge, then long charge for dinner.

2.5 hrs to hotel. Hopefully one with L2 charger so next day can leave with full battery. Otherwise have to add charge in morning. 

 

[gowlerk 1,912]

47 minutes ago, SethInMI said:

It's great to see all this chat about EVs. 

Some more details on charging since people were bringing it up.

As Ryoder mentioned, Teslas have a very asymmetric charge rate.  At low levels of charge, they can accept 250kW of power but this tapers off to around 50kW near 80% (iirc).  As a result, I don't charge much past 50% as a rule.  Here is my ideal all day charge drive pattern:

Leave home with 100% battery.
Drive 3.5 hrs until at 6%
Charge 7 minutes, add 100 miles
Drive 1.5 hours
Eat Lunch. Charge 30 minutes, get up to ~70%

Drive 2.5 hrs until back to 6%

Repeat short charge, then long charge for dinner.

2.5 hrs to hotel. Hopefully one with L2 charger so next day can leave with full battery. Otherwise have to add charge in morning. 

 

So that would be 10 hours of driving time and I would guess about 650 miles for the day? That would be an acceptable but not great day for a single driver not in a hurry. When I do road trips it is with a different goal. We switch drivers and get at least 16 hours in. Our hotel stay is generally 8 hours. Got to get to the DZ ASAP and it's 1900 miles. I'm starting to realize that most people are not talking about this kind of road trip and that charging will not be as much of a problem as it would be for me.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

3 hours ago, gowlerk said:

I bring a North American and a particularly western Canadian perspective to the question.

Just out of curiosity, can you explain to me how you figure that red dot is in western Canada?

 

[gowlerk 1,912]

30 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Just out of curiosity, can you explain to me how you figure that red dot is in western Canada?

 

Yes, by common Canadian terminology anything west of Ontario, and even some far western parts of Ontario (in the central time zone) is generally referred to as "the west". Geographically Manitoba is mostly west of the Canadian shield and is part of the great plains. Just as immediately to our south ND and then SD are not "mid-western states", but western states. But I'm sure you know all that and probably the historical reasons as well. You are just one of those west coasters who like to think that Manitoba is not sufficiently western in culture. Usually it's Albertans who cop this attitude. I've been hearing it all my life. Whether you agree or not Manitoba is in western Canada.

[SethInMI 145]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

I'm starting to realize that most people are not talking about this kind of road trip and that charging will not be as much of a problem as it would be for me.

Here is an estimate for a straight through drive from Winnipeg to Eloy (stopping overnight would save about 40 min of charge time if you could slow charge at the hotel).  You are charging about 15% of the time.  It ain't pretty, but it can be done.

 

[gowlerk 1,912]

2 minutes ago, SethInMI said:

Here is an estimate for a straight through drive from Winnipeg to Eloy (stopping overnight would save about 40 min of charge time if you could slow charge at the hotel).  You are charging about 15% of the time.  It ain't pretty, but it can be done.

 

No kidding it's not pretty. 22 charges for less than 2200 miles? That's every 100 miles. I guess it's what you need to do to keep the stops short. BTW, I've done the drive quite a few times. It's never pretty.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

18 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Just as immediately to our south ND and then SD are not "mid-western states", but western states.

uhmmmm no:

 

[gowlerk 1,912]

Just now, SkyDekker said:

uhmmmm no:

 

Ok, you now have my permission to refer to Manitoba as a mid western province. But I won't.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

9 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Ok, you now have my permission to refer to Manitoba as a mid western province. But I won't.

I'll just refer to it as the Prairies.

[gowlerk 1,912]

To move off on a related but tangential direction, I am leaving tomorrow morning on a trip to the Cincinnati area. Hauling 44,500 lbs of oats my total gross will be about 78,000. Including 200 gallons of fuel (1800) lbs. I will get about 7 to 7.5 MPG for about 160 gallons consumed in 1180 miles. I will stop once to fuel and it will take me 20 minutes or so. The truck is speed limited at 62 MPH and it will take me two full days of legal driving time (11hrs per day). I can't imagine doing this in an EV truck until the technology advances to the point of fully driverless.  

[gowlerk 1,912]

3 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

I'll just refer to it as the Prairies.

Other truckers from elsewhere in Canada often refer to us as flatlanders.

Edited January 3 by gowlerk

[tkhayes 126]

On 1/2/2024 at 1:06 PM, brenthutch said:

Then explain this 

 

Ranking of EVs by 5-Year Depreciation – iSeeCars Study
Rank	Model	Average 5-Year Depreciation
1	Tesla Model 3	42.9%
EV Average		49.1%
2	Tesla Model X	49.9%
3	Nissan LEAF	50.8%
4	Chevrolet Bolt EV	51.1%
5	Tesla Model S	55.5%

Iseecars is not any sort of a research body.  They are a car search engine and that is pretty much all they claim to be. https://www.iseecars.com/about-us/.

I can probably find supporting data from any number of pro EV or other auto websites that also do not do research.  But why would I?

[SethInMI 145]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

I can't imagine doing this in an EV truck until the technology advances to the point of fully driverless

Agreed. 

Tesla Semis are making runs from Fremont to Nevada and back but that is only like 300 miles, and the Semi can do 500.  The nice thing about that application is you run over the Sierras, and EV trucks can regen during the descents which is safer and of course far more energy efficient.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

2 hours ago, SethInMI said:

Agreed. 

Tesla Semis are making runs from Fremont to Nevada and back but that is only like 300 miles, and the Semi can do 500.  The nice thing about that application is you run over the Sierras, and EV trucks can regen during the descents which is safer and of course far more energy efficient.

In situations and applications where they are a good fit,  they'll be great. 

Long haul isn't going to be one. 

MAYBE line haul,  where the run is between terminals that can have chargers or perhaps a battery swap setup. 

Or simply swap out the depleted tractor for a fully charged one. 

 

Also, the Tesla charger network is growing fast.  On I80 through Indiana & Ohio,  the service areas all are getting multiple Tesla chargers in. Like 6 or 8 per location.  I've yet to see all of them in use, let alone a line.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

1 hour ago, wolfriverjoe said:

MAYBE line haul,  where the run is between terminals that can have chargers or perhaps a battery swap setup.

They could put it on rails to make it more efficient....

[JoeWeber 2,299]

5 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

I'll just refer to it as the Prairies.

And you'd be right. It always cracks me up when Chicago folks, and my partner is one, refer to Chicago as the Mid-West. But as our eminent gowlerk will apprise us there are historical reasons we can reject providing we have his permission.

Edited January 3 by JoeWeber

[gowlerk 1,912]

25 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

And you'd be right. It always cracks me up when Chicago folks, and my partner is one, refer to Chicago as the Mid-West. But as our eminent gowlerk will apprise us there are historical reasons we can reject providing we have his permission.

It cracks me up when people say that at one time Winnipeg billed itself at "the Chicago of the north". I'm still wondering where you grew up, if you consider yourself to have done so. Winnipeg boasts several members of the Weber clan. One was a neighbour of mine.

Edited January 4 by gowlerk

[JoeWeber 2,299]

3 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

It cracks me up when people say that at one time Winnipeg billed itself at "the Chicago of the north".

True, but then Peggers will buy into the thinnest of marketing scams, Tim Horton's for example.

[gowlerk 1,912]

1 minute ago, JoeWeber said:

True, but then Peggers will buy into the thinnest of marketing scams, Tim Horton's for example.

Horton's is even bigger in Ontario. I don't do Timmy"s. I'm still wondering where you grew up, if you consider yourself to have done so. Winnipeg boasts several members of the Weber clan. One was a neighbour of mine.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

46 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

True, but then Peggers will buy into the thinnest of marketing scams, Tim Horton's for example.

I don't like Timmies, but it beats Dunkin Donuts 100/100.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

42 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

I don't like Timmies, but it beats Dunkin Donuts 100/100.

I traveled/worked in Winnipeg for a few years with Standard Aero doing a Turbine Engine gig and, also, Plant 6. Guy's there were always trying to get me to go in on a Tim's against a Dunkin somewhere. But at least Dunkin had not awful coffee, not so Tim's.