freeflyguy 0 #26 February 25, 2003 Quote...Caravan, too. With most skydiving planes in curr ent use, we know that we can pile up as many people as can fit without problem. I was on a Caravan (Grand) that stalled. We all fell off as his wing started to dip. Not pleasant for the pilot. But Yah, they stall too. ---------------------------- bzzzz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lewmonst 0 #27 February 25, 2003 I've seen the boogie and now many of the jumpers that were on that load. It was a load at the richmond boogie, a big-way belly dive as everyone else has described. No one was serioulsy hurt luckily, although having spoken about it with the guy who hit something, probably the tailgate, he did blackout for some time in freefall. He was also a richmond local RW guy. He was fine when he came to, got stable and deployed properly and all that. you can't see him on the video, or at least you can't see that someone is unconscious. peacehttp://www.exitshot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crutch 0 #28 February 25, 2003 Andyman, chunking twenty-ways out of the Otter does cause a stall. It happened several years ago at Perris if I remeber correctly. Was not a pretty site. Becuase you have gotten away with it doesn't mean it hasn't happened or could happen. Ask the pilot how much extra work he is doing when you launch that twenty-way chunk from the Otter, you may change your mind about how "safe" it is.blue skies, art Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #29 February 25, 2003 Yes, it is a lot of work. Flying 17 people on the tail (16-way chunk and video) is tough work and you better be ready for it in the Otter. Or else yes, you can stall it. But I also believe the otter can recover from a stall easier than the Casa or Skyvan. The wing is fat and wide. In layman's aerodynamic terms it has more "bite". If you have shed most of the weight (hopefully the group went when they felt the buffet) the aircraft will recover easily. The Casa and Skyvan have a much thinner wing and will be more difficult to recover. Situationally any plane is capable of being out of control all the way to the ground. So it is imparitive that no matter what plane is being used for jumpers the pilot knows proper "unusual attitude" recovery technique.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #30 February 25, 2003 I spoke to Paul about this a year or so ago, from what he said, when the plane went inverted, he went through a whole series of procedures trying to right the plane, to no avail. After trying everything, he was still upside down, and just said "fuck it" and let go of the yoke and rudder pedals, and the plane (based on whatever positions the yoke and rudder were in, something about nosing the plane down or something, but don't quote me on that, I'm not a pilot), anyways, when he let go and let the plane go, it began to dive and righted itself into a position that he could recover it out of the dive at about 8000ft. I don't think (again I'mnot a pilot) that there was any set procedure for righting an inverted Casa in the manual, as it had never been done before Paul did it. He is the only pilot alive that has righted a flipped Casa from what I have been told by jumpers at CSS. (Take that part for what its worth, hear say). But I did hear two military pilots went in with inverted Casas before this happened to Paul. Hence, of the three documented Casa flips, he was the only one to right it. The best part of the story, he said when he landed, he looked at the right seat pilot, who was a bit shook up understandably, but that he (Paul) climbed out, shook himself off, found the LO, chewed him out, and then got back in the Casa and flew the next load. (Again, I wasn't there at the boogie, these are just the stories I was told at CSS by Paul and the up jumpers at the bonfire. Take it for what its worth) Cheers, Tom -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #31 February 25, 2003 It's been done by another pilot crew. Intentional engine reversal inflight. Was done to find out what happened to another Casa that crashed. Normal flight was recovered between 1,000 and 2,000 AGL from an entry at 14,000 AGL. A phone call was made to tell the investigators what to look for. Not certain on the year but I'm almost positive that it was before 1996.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #32 February 25, 2003 >After trying everything, he was still upside down, and just said "fuck > it" and let go of the yoke and rudder pedals . . . It's been a long standing joke in the aviation community that the best mechanism for recovering from an unusual flight condition (stalls etc) is a boxing glove that pops out of the instrument panel and knocks the pilot out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #33 February 26, 2003 I was on the load and have a copy of the freefall video of the CASA flat on it's back. 1996 Richmond as stated early. Jerry Bird was organizing a thirty something way. For the record there were NO markings about CG in the airplane fusilage. I HAD seen markings in the Sky Van. I had jumped the CASA's at Quincy and other places before Richmond and had NEVER had a briefing on CG awareness for the CASA. I knew (had been briefed) the problem with the skyvan and others. But since there were no placards and no briefing (on probably 20 CASA jumps) I figured that it wasn't a problem. I was in the second row, facing the tail. We were back there for a lot longer than we should have been. The count was given about 3 times. I felt some positive G's, negative G's and found myself pooped out. I started diving to the formation and realized I was seeing blue sky. I was on my back. Flipped over, looked around and saw the CASA flat on it's back, no spin. I looking right in the tailgate, and it passed me in freefall. It kept on going and I lost sight of it as it started to nose over in recovery. Of course we started building the formation but it only got to about 10. Some friends of mine on board ran (crawled) out the ceiling, others didn't get out until it recovered. Worst injury I know of was a dislocated or broken jaw. Some bumps and bruses. A couple of people were hauled away on back boards but I THINK they only were banged up. BTW the CASA taxied in, hot loaded the next group, and went back up. Terry I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #34 February 26, 2003 Ummm......your transport / normal category rated aircraft just did an acrobatic manuever and no one was going to give it a look over for any structural stressing during the recovery? I've heard about that several times from several people and I have to say that was a pretty bad thing to do. I don't think I'd be climbing back in that thing until it had a thorough going over. But that's just me.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skr 1 #35 February 26, 2003 >Of course we started building the formation That's the part that cracks me up. We hairy chested thrill seekers are nothing if not unflappable :-) :-) Skr Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #36 February 26, 2003 QuoteYes, it is a lot of work. Flying 17 people on the tail (16-way chunk and video) is tough work and you better be ready for it in the Otter. Or else yes, you can stall it. But I also believe the otter can recover from a stall easier than the Casa or Skyvan. The wing is fat and wide. In layman's aerodynamic terms it has more "bite". If you have shed most of the weight (hopefully the group went when they felt the buffet) the aircraft will recover easily. The Casa and Skyvan have a much thinner wing and will be more difficult to recover. Situationally any plane is capable of being out of control all the way to the ground. So it is imparitive that no matter what plane is being used for jumpers the pilot knows proper "unusual attitude" recovery technique. Chris, I haven't thought about Otter aerodynamics in detail, but doesn't the high tail tend to get blanketed in a stall or spin situation? But I suppose the good thing is that the high tail means the rudder doesn't get blanketed.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #37 February 26, 2003 Quote>Of course we started building the formation That's the part that cracks me up. We hairy chested thrill seekers are nothing if not unflappable :-) :-) Skr What else is there to do?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #38 February 26, 2003 QuoteWhat else is there to do? Pull high and stay the hell away from an out of control airplane?It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Craig 0 #39 February 26, 2003 I have heard the high horizontal stabs. and low wings that can make recovery a little more difficult in some circumstances (not just speaking of Otters.) It might be interseting to know if there are any associated problems have both a high wing and high horiz. stab. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skr 1 #40 February 26, 2003 >What else is there to do? I probably would have flown over to several people, gathered us into a loose horseshoe, and exchanged looks of astonishment and amazement, not to mention "cool - far out - did you see that? - wow" and so on. Probably why my business card would say (lets see if this markup formatting works) Custom Far Fetching & Professional Appreciation Skr Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #41 February 26, 2003 >Chris, I haven't thought about Otter aerodynamics in detail, but >doesn't the high tail tend to get blanketed in a stall or spin situation? Interesting. I know T-tails have a hard time with deep stall conditions; perhaps otter tails are low enough (relative to the wing/stabilizer distance) to avoid that problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #42 February 26, 2003 QuoteChris, I haven't thought about Otter aerodynamics in detail, but doesn't the high tail tend to get blanketed in a stall or spin situation? But I suppose the good thing is that the high tail means the rudder doesn't get blanketed. The situation which I believe you are referrring to are the high T-tail and low wing aircraft like the Tomahawk, King Air 200 and F90. I've never felt that the horizontal get blanked by a stall. The horizonatl stab is almost directly in line with the thrust line so they would get induced flow if nothing else when you jammed the power. And really you may also say that you could prevent a full stall in an Otter because the Horizontal Stab is inline with the thrust line. As long as you put the power in before the full stall. And you usually have some warning signs in the Otter. Since I've never done a full stall in an Otter I can't tell you if it gets blanked.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #43 February 26, 2003 The airplane was well below us. It fell past me in freefall and started to nose over when I lost sight of it. I did kind of look around for it in the formation. And it was a Jerry Bird load! Are YOU going to NOT try to get in?I was surprised the pilots didn't have to change their pants. I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sixtysevengt5oo 0 #44 February 28, 2006 does anyone know where one might be able to download this video, considering it isnt on skydivingmovies.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #45 February 28, 2006 QuoteAndyman, chunking twenty-ways out of the Otter does cause a stall. It happened several years ago at Perris if I remeber correctly. Was not a pretty site. Becuase you have gotten away with it doesn't mean it hasn't happened or could happen. Ask the pilot how much extra work he is doing when you launch that twenty-way chunk from the Otter, you may change your mind about how "safe" it is. Years ago, the Aussie 16-way team were the only ones in the world taking complete 16-ways out of the Otter. At the World Meet, one of the pilots stalled the Otter on jump-run. Cost them a lot of points. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #46 March 1, 2006 Ummm......your transport / normal category rated aircraft just did an acrobatic manuever and no one was going to give it a look over for any structural stressing during the recovery? I've heard about that several times from several people and I have to say that was a pretty bad thing to do. I don't think I'd be climbing back in that thing until it had a thorough going over. But that's just me. (quote) And we have a winner! ~you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #47 March 1, 2006 The Casa's had only been around for a season at the max(quote) I guess it was a UFO we saw in 94 & 95. ~you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beezyshaw 0 #48 March 1, 2006 Quotedoes anyone know where one might be able to download this video, considering it isnt on skydivingmovies.com I was one of the two videos on the dive. I was actually to be in the formation(I just usually wore my camera all the time) and Tony James was the outside video. I was a floater on the tailgate, and when I felt the buffet I left. I got pretty good video of the first few seconds and a good shot of people coming off the airplane with it inverted. A couple of people stayed in the airplane, with injuries like broken arms and such. Tony's video shows more than mine, as I started doing rw and took my eyes off the airplane after a few seconds. Funny to think back on that, but as has been said before, the dive went on as planned! I'll try to dig up my tape and edit into a mpeg and post it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #49 March 2, 2006 The problem is that every new generation of skydivers insists on learning the same old lessons the hard way. For example, I was number 17 in the line up when the Pink Skyvan stalled and spun over Germany in 1987. Fast forward a decade to Perris Valley, California and their newly-arrived Skyvan. I saw a dozen or more skygods hanging off the ramp during a dirt dive. I tried to caution them, but was rudely told: "We know what we are doing, so leave us alone!" A few minutes later I watched the Skyvan tilt backwards, bend both vertical fins and Melanie Conatser burst into tears! Yup! That Perris skygod sure knew more about Skyvans than a rigger with 1,500 jumps! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #50 March 2, 2006 >A few minutes later I watched the Skyvan tilt backwards, bend both >vertical fins and Melanie Conatser burst into tears! Yep. Thank goodness she was in the jam-up; there would have been hell to pay if some hapless organizer had tried that and caused $20K in damage. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
