phoenixlpr 0 #26 February 27, 2006 QuoteAs I was told - Windy days are where experienced jumpers stay on the ground, and up-jumpers become more experienced. You have to know your (wind)limits, but how would you know your (wind)limits without testing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #27 February 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteI often watch what the most experienced folks at the DZ are doing. Being one of the "gray beards" of today, what I do when the winds come up or get gusty is what the old timers did when I was a newer jumpers. Just sitting back and watching the show. Sparky >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ah! Reminds me of "the good old days" in Cal. City when the grey bearded TIs sat on the upstairs porch, watching young guys drag through the cacti. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #28 February 27, 2006 >but how would you know your (wind)limits without testing? One would assume it's the same way you know that you can't pull at 200 feet and expect to survive. (I assume you haven't tested that!) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #29 February 27, 2006 QuoteQuoteAs I was told - Windy days are where experienced jumpers stay on the ground, and up-jumpers become more experienced. You have to know your (wind)limits, but how would you know your (wind)limits without testing? billvon's response is pretty much perfect. But you can also learn a lot watching other people land. Are they getting battered around by turbulence? Are there more biffed in landings than usual? My "wind limits" are going to vary based on several factors - whether they're gusting and how much they're gusting, where I'm jumping (is it a wide-open landing area without a lot of things around that can cause turbulence or is it prone to rotors even under the best conditions?), and really, just whether it "feels right" that day. If there's a wind hold for students, I'll generally sit down. Or if there's any kind of wind hold, I'll sit. I was at Deland recently when they put on a C License hold... yeah, I have a C license, but that seemed like a good reason to sit down... plus a lot of people more experienced than me were sitting out. It sucked because I'd gone down there specifically to take Scott Miller's course and I only got to do one of the eval jumps because of the weather conditions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #30 February 27, 2006 Quote>but how would you know your (wind)limits without testing? One would assume it's the same way you know that you can't pull at 200 feet and expect to survive. (I assume you haven't tested that!) It's not so simple. If the wind is blowing evenly at 20, a lot of experienced jumpers will be going fine. But me with a wl of 1.1 is marginal, esp if the wind varies with periods at only 16-17 and then say the lower 20s. These conditions are the exception to the rule about following the experienced crowd. At the Byron Boogie last fall I sat on the ground for 4 hours watching the wind trends and watching a lot of people jump without incident, as the wind was running in 20s. When it settled down to the teens, I manifested, but as it came time, there were the occasional buildups higher. I went, figuring worst case was slow backing over a very open LZ, and had decent forward penetration when it came time to land. But since I don't really know the wind speed at the point, I'm not sure what I learned from it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #31 February 28, 2006 QuoteCheck the local gear stores for their yearly sales of flash lights. I guess that makes it OK then. These night jumps were planned for a while, requirement could have been posted that jumpers would have to follow FARs and that getting proper lighting might not be a bad idea.. Not only because of the rules, but because it makes the jump safer which is something that we should all give a shit about. QuoteMaybe you should pay attention at the safety briefings. What the hell is that supposed to mean? What did I say that gave you the impression that I did not pay attention to any safety breafing and what does that have to do with violating FARs with improper lighting or safety culture of a DZ? I didnt break any rules put out at any safety briefing during that jump, only thing I did do stupid was not wear goggles but last time I checked there is no rule which states that is a requirement (although it's a hell of a good idea). I was one of just a couple people there who were lit up and performing a night jump in accordance with published regulations since as stated by others I dont think chem lights (which seemed to have flown off many jumpers before they got under canopy BTW) qualify for proper night jump lighting. FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #32 February 28, 2006 Quote>but how would you know your (wind)limits without testing? One would assume it's the same way you know that you can't pull at 200 feet and expect to survive. (I assume you haven't tested that!) Or other good ways: 1. Listen to people who have the experience and are willing to tell you. This requires an open mind and willingness to admit that others know more and are trying to help you. 2. Take baby steps to find out your limits. If you have never jumped in 15 MPH winds, but have done 14 MPH...Well in good conditions at your home DZ it might be OK to push the limit a little. But be very careful. Going from 14 to 20 would not be a good choice. This however takes time, and a lot of people don't have that kind of patience. So we get cool sayings like, "When its windy the experienced stand down and watch the inexperienced get experienced". A combination of Bills half joke (common sense), listening to the experienced, and taking baby steps will save you tons of pain. BTW, had a Mal Sunday at a new to me DZ....They made me fill out an incident report. I thought it strange at first....I mean come on, its just a mal. But on deeper thought it made me realize how safety focused this Dz is. Oh yeah...I dorked the landing. Stood it up, but it was NOT pretty."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #33 February 28, 2006 >and had decent forward penetration when it came time to land. But since >I don't really know the wind speed at the point, I'm not sure what I >learned from it. That's OK; you're building up your intuition. The next time you feel similar conditions, you will feel slightly better about jumping in them. If the winds are higher, you will worry. A lot of intuition is unconscious, and comes from watching people land, feeling the wind when you're standing there after you land, feeling your canopy etc. A lot of experienced jumpers don't look at wind meters when they decide to scratch or jump. They stand outside, feel the wind, watch people under canopy and get a sense of how they feel. If they feel OK they jump. The reason this works is that they've done this a thousand times before and have gotten a pretty good sense of what's OK and what's not. Unfortunately you can't always quantify it. i.e. you can't say "Thou shalt not jump when the winds are above X knots and/or are changing more than Y knots over the course of Z seconds." You can come up with more general rules (like the 10/14mph limits for students) but it takes a while to get an innate feel for what's safe and what's not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #34 February 28, 2006 QuoteBTW, had a Mal Sunday at a new to me DZ....They made me fill out an incident report. I thought it strange at first....I mean come on, its just a mal. But on deeper thought it made me realize how safety focused this Dz is. Here in CT, that's state law. We need to fill out incident reports for every off landing too. They go to the state DOT. No clue what happens to them from there. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #35 February 28, 2006 QuoteBy posting what you did post I get the feeling that you think I'm talking about a local DZ, and it also probably means that you have probably seen exactly what I'm talking about with safety attitudes. Rather than debate with you on-line, feel free to discuss the lack of safety concerns with me in-person. Lighting options and visibility concerns were covered. What you did was interrupt the breifing while altimeter questions arose. Although not many, I've completed 25 night jumps without incident and JM'd several loads of newbies, including night jump briefings. I have night jumped all 3 of the SoCal DZs. I don't have the experience that you claim, so you may know more. You know where to find me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #36 February 28, 2006 Quote Rather than debate with you on-line, feel free to discuss the lack of safety concerns with me in-person. Lighting options and visibility concerns were covered. What you did was interrupt the breifing while altimeter questions arose. Aye, I dont remember specifics on that, but next time I guess I'll just keep my mouth shut because I couldnt possibly know anything with only 200 jumps (little over 100 at the time) ... I think I remember a little, and it had to do with information that was asked about neptunes, and I basicly said how you can prevent your neptune from turning itself off / freaking out in freefall on a night jump... Knowing about neptunes and having used them on night jumps before, I had a better answer than Ack! Neptunes are unreliable at night! which is what a few people were stating. QuoteAlthough not many, I've completed 25 night jumps without incident and JM'd several loads of newbies, including night jump briefings. I have night jumped all 3 of the SoCal DZs. I don't have the experience that you claim, so you may know more. I have never claimed to have more experience than you. I definately am not trying to knock you here, and I'm sorry if that is the attitude you get from me. I definately respect you, I've talked to you in person a few times, and I have always felt that you were someone that I could approach for good answers to any questions I may have safety or otherwise. ... But I do know what the rules are (they happen to be in my SIM) and I've got enough jumps to read that. I've also been to night jumps that were conducted more correctly if comparing them against the regulations in place. This thread is about DZ culture as related to safety.. In case A) People were requried to have certian things for the jumps, inconvenient to say the least for some. In case B) Some safety items were blown off because it really is inconvenient and unreasonable to expect everyone to have lighting or for the store to stock it. I guess I just see a difference in culture here, but mabey I should wait to make my judgement until I have more jumps. This does seem to be getting out of hand.... I never intended to bash any DZ or person... I was just simply trying to state in my origional post that there is a difference between DZs because someone asked, and this was just an example I had at the top of my head. Sorry it turned into such a mess. And for the record, I think that same DZ has a great student program (from talking to people who learned there and comparing notes on our training). But then again I have not seen enough student programs or worked with it to really know anything about what I'm talking about.. QuoteYou know where to find me. We will see each other around FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #37 February 28, 2006 Quote ... But I do know what the rules are (they happen to be in my SIM) and I've got enough jumps to read that. I've also been to night jumps that were conducted more correctly if comparing them against the regulations in place. This thread is about DZ culture as related to safety.. In case A) People were requried to have certian things for the jumps, inconvenient to say the least for some. In case B) Some safety items were blown off because it really is inconvenient and unreasonable to expect everyone to have lighting or for the store to stock it. I guess I just see a difference in culture here, but mabey I should wait to make my judgement until I have more jumps. keeping it DZ non specific (never did night jump at shark's home), is part of this difference related to the nature of the airport traffic (if any) below? Of the places I've done night jumps, one was very focused on strobes and lighting, and one was not. Different type of airport. Same might be true on the cloud angle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #38 February 28, 2006 QuoteWe need to fill out incident reports for every off landing too. They go to the state DOT. No clue what happens to them from there. They go into a dusty hole where no one ever looks at them. Mainly, they are in reserve for when some self righteous non-jumper wants to pad a false case for making jumping illegal in your state - for your own good. Either that or he just doesn't want to share HIS airport with a bunch of meat missiles - your operations can really bug him when he goes out to fly his little Piper once every 3 weeks. Edit: you guys really need to fight that requirement I see no positive things in it for skydivers ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #39 March 1, 2006 Well, one DZ was a normal airport, while the other is not, so I guess that could have something to do with it :) To be fair, i'm going to point out other things at that DZ which I think show a good safety attitude.. This DZ is usually VERY good about second passes, I have had more second passes at this DZ than anywhere else and I've done a pretty small percentage of my jumps there.. Never heard a complant about someone requesting a second pass either. Really like that.. Along with that I have never heard people get vocal when it comes to telling the group before to leave, .. They just seem very good about spots and keeping good seperation.. Something that you dont see everywhere.. Overall, I do think this DZ is a safe place to jump. I have also seen the instructors give what I think is pretty good time to the students, I've seen them go into more detail about the jump and how the equipment works with tandems than any other DZ that I've payed attention to these things at... I have recommended this DZ in the past to friends talking about jumping because I do think they take good care of the students. I post this because I dont just wanna point out nothing but wrongs, i'm sure every DZ has things that are not perfect. FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sd-slider 0 #40 March 1, 2006 Quote You know where to find me. Sharkbait! Hoo ha ha!Anvil Brother #69 Sidelined with a 5mm C5-C6 herniated disk... Back2Back slammers and 40yr old fat guys don't mix! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
