DZ culture and accident rate

[Hawkins121 0]

This is directed more towards the guys in the sport that have been around for a while.

I have been researching dropzones to decide which dropzone I want to jump at during my "Rookie" season as a licensed skydiver.

While researching I found out that the DZ that is run by the USPA's saftey and training director has had no fatalities (that i could find) and the DZ is pretty busy and it has been around for a while.

My question is can one DZ be more "Safety oriented" than another? Is there a reason one dz would have 4-5 fatalities in the span of a few years and another have none in many years?

[FlyinseivLP2 0]

Attitude seems to spread at a DZ, whether it be good or bad. If the more experienced jumpers, that people might look up to, are safety oriented then that attitude will spread to the other jumpers and the DZ as a whole might be a bit safer. On the other hand if some of the Skygods at a DZ have a Yahoo attitude then the newer jumpers can adopt that kind of think too. If you spend some time at the DZ and see what the attitudes of the regular jumpers are like it can help you decide.
Just because there hasn't been a fatality at a DZ does not make it a safety oriented place. On the other hand a few fatalities a DZ does not make it a dangerous place. Sometimes shit happens and it can happen at even the safest DZ's to the safest person.

[kallend 1,623]

Check this thread.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[nate_1979 9]

I dont have alot of time in the sport, but I definately feel that one DZ can have a much more safety orientated atmoshphere than others.. This has become more and more evident to me as I talk to jumpers at other DZs, sometimes I am shocked to hear what they say.. I recently was talking to one newer jumper who has decided to downsize canopies very slowly, and still prefers to pull a little higher than 3.5k, ... People have told this person that they should get out of the sport because they just arnt advancing fast enough, and if they arnt ready to jump smaller canopies they are too dangerous .. I can't imagion hearing such things where I jump, I'm more used to hearing the "dont downsize so fast" speeches. Trying to rush a newer jumper into things that they are not yet comfortable with is BS. One of the biggest areas I've seen safety concerns differ is doing things like night jumps.. The first night jumps I did the DZ required everyone to have strobes, glow sticks, and all the other stuff REQUIRED by the FAA to do a night jump. I went and did a night jump at another DZ and was shocked to see that I was one of TWO (2) people jumping who had a strobe light! This really showed to me a lack of safety minded people both in the jumpers and the DZ itself.. I didnt see one canopy in front of me until I was already turned on final, the guy had lost all of his glow sticks and that's all he had. After landing there was talk between a couple other canopy pilots who realized that they almost hit because they heard the other person fly by, both of them also lost their glow sticks... This is off topic, but seriously, a strobe doesnt cost that much.. It was also pretty pathetic that the good sized DZ store didnt sell any of them either. (first DZ they had enough strobes for eveyone who wanted one to buy, and it was a smaller DZ than the second)

Personally, I have DZs that I feel safe at, and others that I just dont get a warm fuzzy.. Some DZs are just shitty when it comes to safety, and that really sucks.. I tend to try and avoid them as much as possible, although I still end up going sometimes cuz my friends are there...

Definately get a feel for how safe you feel at a DZ.. If you dont get a warm fuzzy at one, but you feel safer at another (by such things as people checking others gear, reminders of seperation by experienced jumpers in the plane, just little shit) then go by your gut feeling, your probably right.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[popsjumper 2]

It's the "pack mentality".

Whatever the leader does, so does the pack.


We've never out-bred the "animal" in us.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[SimonBones 1]

Jump in Connecticut! I live in Connecticut (this year) and CPI is my home DZ (this year). If you want to be absolutely safe in this sport, jump at CPI! This place is amazing! We have the S&TA: (fist name) you're grounded till you're dead" (last name). You may not learn too many advanced skills but trust me, you'll be grounded for sooo many absolutely stupid things for at least 2 weeks at a time that you won't feel any safer anywhere else. There is one drawback though, you won't jump very much (unless you have thousands of skydives) and you'll be told you're just not good enough a lot. By the end of the season (and 20 jumps later) you'll feel you've taken an absolutely SAFE approach to the sport, simply DON'T JUMP! It's sooo easy! It's a little bit of an exageration, not much (just a bit honestly), but this DZ is sooo safe it'll make you nauseus and wondering why you ever entered this sport in the first place. (Break your pinky on a PLF? Grounded for 2 weeks, NOT KIDDING!)

108 way head down world record!!!
http://www.simonbones.com
Hit me up on Facebook

[L.O. 0]

What Andy says is about right. we do generally fallow the alpha, be it male or female. Of coarse the rogue element is always present, thats what skydiving is all about. Thats also what makes each skydiver so different. We get to take in all the info and make our own decisions I love this sport. Good luck.

HPDBs, I hate those guys.
AFB, charter member.

[Shark 0]

So the DZ is unsafe because they don't sell strobe lights? They don't sell flash lights either.

[pilotdave 0]

Hehehe. I've jumped at 10 different DZs, and yes, I've never seen one more safety conscious than CPI. But in my 3 years/500+ jumps there, I've only seen a few jumpers get grounded (aside from everyone that voted to put me on the BOD... I grounded all of them! ). I don't necessarily agree with every grounding I've seen, but there's a story behind every one of em. I agree that some were overboard, but they weren't first time offenses either.

Beer is still the punishment 99% of the time like every DZ... Typically ya gotta do something pretty stupid to get grounded, like [almost] getting someone else hurt...

Not sure bout the advanced skills part... aren't style and accuracy advanced??

Dave

[nate_1979 9]

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So the DZ is unsafe because they don't sell strobe lights? They don't sell flash lights either.

I never mentioned any particular DZ, and I've done night jumps outside of my "home" area.. I intend to keep which DZ it is that I commented on to myself because I dont think it's important in this thread. By posting what you did post I get the feeling that you think I'm talking about a local DZ, and it also probably means that you have probably seen exactly what I'm talking about with safety attitudes.

It's not the "whether they sell them or not" that I'm commenting on.. When you do night jumps it is a FAR (REQUIREMENT, NOT OPTIONAL) that you will have some things such as a strobe light. By ignoring such a simple safety REQUIREMENT I feel that safety has been simply swept under the carpet.. I dont know about you, but I kinda like seeing other people on night jumps, and I have not developed any kind of advanced night vision to see a non-lit jumper under canopy.. I dont think it's too much to expect from a DZ if they want to claim to be a safe place to jump is it?

Whole point of my post was to show that there is a difference between the safety culture at different DZs, and there are times that this becomes more evident.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[gdmusumeci 0]

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The first night jumps I did the DZ required everyone to have strobes, glow sticks, and all the other stuff REQUIRED by the FAA to do a night jump.

I don't mean to be a pedant, but strobe lights aren't required. FAR Part 105.19, "Parachute operations between sunset and sunrise," says:

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(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a person to conduct a parachute operation from an aircraft between sunset and sunrise, unless the person or object descending from the aircraft displays a light that is visible for at least 3 statute miles.
(b) The light required by paragraph (a) of this section must be displayed from the time that the person or object is under a properly functioning open parachute until that person or object reaches the surface.

As you can see, the regulation does not actually require a strobe light, merely one that is visible for three miles. On top of that, you don't need it until you have a canopy over your head. This is the only thing that the FAA has to say about night jumps: any other requirements would be pursuant to the USPA BSRs.

[tombuch 0]

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As you can see, the regulation does not actually require a strobe light, merely one that is visible for three miles. On top of that, you don't need it until you have a canopy over your head. This is the only thing that the FAA has to say about night jumps: any other requirements would be pursuant to the USPA BSRs.

Correct. But keep in mind that chem lights are NOT visible for three miles, and neither is a flashlight. The function of the light is to alert pilots so they can identify the canopy, and the pilot must be able to see the light in all directions for three miles. A strobe light is the most common approach to meeting this requirement, although a few jumpers have used camera lights that flood a wide area of the sky. Chem lights are NOT an effective or legal solution.

As for the original point of discussion...I tend to look at regulation as an indicator of safety and risk management. I can easily see regulatory violations, and in most cases a DZ that violates obvious FAR's and BSR's is also pushing safety ilmits in other areas I can not see. So for me, the approach to night jump lighting is one of many important elements in evaluating a DZ.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[darkwing 4]

My personal view, based on 33 years in the sport, is that accident rates at individual dropzones are overwhelmingly dictated by two things:

1) More active DZs have more accidents, because they have more jumpers.
2) Small number statistics (which basically means you can't draw any meaningful conclusions about things that only happen a few times)

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[nate_1979 9]

Aye, .. I stand corrected about the specific type of light required.. Show me some chem lights that are visible for 3 miles and I'll agree a strobe is not required.. But even the super bright chem lights tend to not be so bright by the time aircraft exit is completed, they really dont burn bright for very long, after a matter of minutes they are dull compared to the startoff. Dont think I've ever seen a chemlight advertised as being visible for 3 miles either, mabey I just missed that part.. I've got a few of them at home, I'll take a look

Bottom line, violation or not, it's a safety item that I've seen some DZs enforce, and others not, which shows that different DZs do have different safety attitudes.. This is a very specific example given, and I would not judge a whole DZs attitude just on how they do night jumps, but this example shows the point I try to make. Outside of night jumps some DZs are big on gear checks, others are not, some will have jumpers who know what the person before them is doing and pulling at and remind people of seperation, some DZs you ask the people in front of you where they are going to pull and they look at you funny like you just asked them if they planned on going to mars, some DZs take care of their planes, others just dont. There is alot of things that make up the safety overall culture.. Alot of it isnt even the DZ, it has to do with the attitude of the people who jump there, we are after all responsible for our own safety every time we decide to do this stuff

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[NWFlyer 2]

Nate, why did you choose to jump anyway?

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[nate_1979 9]

That's always a good question, and to be 100% honest I wasnt exactly the safety token child myself considering that the night jump I did there was without goggles, ... I choose to jump because I love night jumps, we got lucky and nobody got hurt, but that doesnt make what any of us did right. Like I said in my other post alot of the safety attitude has to come from the jumpers themselves, so in that way I was part of the failure to make things as safe as possible myself.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[kallend 1,623]

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As you can see, the regulation does not actually require a strobe light, merely one that is visible for three miles. On top of that, you don't need it until you have a canopy over your head. This is the only thing that the FAA has to say about night jumps: any other requirements would be pursuant to the USPA BSRs.

Correct. But keep in mind that chem lights are NOT visible for three miles, and neither is a flashlight. The function of the light is to alert pilots so they can identify the canopy, and the pilot must be able to see the light in all directions for three miles. A strobe light is the most common approach to meeting this requirement, although a few jumpers have used camera lights that flood a wide area of the sky. Chem lights are NOT an effective or legal solution.

As for the original point of discussion...I tend to look at regulation as an indicator of safety and risk management. I can easily see regulatory violations, and in most cases a DZ that violates obvious FAR's and BSR's is also pushing safety ilmits in other areas I can not see. So for me, the approach to night jump lighting is one of many important elements in evaluating a DZ.

As a matter of physics/physiology, the distance that a light may be seen at night depends on the ambient light conditions and the sensitivity of the viewer's eyes at that moment. Chem lights can certainly be seen at 3 miles in pitch dark conditions by a dark adapted individual with normal eyesight who is not suffering from anoxia.

It's another of those FAA rules that are impossible to interpret accurately, just like being 2000ft laterally from a cloud (how do you measure THAT?)

There are some very nice bright LEDs available now that are visible at 3 miles. Some of the latest FAA approved anticollision lights for aircraft use LEDs.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[NWFlyer 2]

Thanks for acknowledging that ultimately it was your decision to jump, even though you weren't comfortable with the overall approach the DZ was taking.

Fact is, as you pointed out, *we* create the culture to a large extent. Sometimes, just making decisions for ourselves and letting people know why we've made them can help contribute to a safer culture. At best, we can influence others, at least, we've made a decision we feel safe with.

One great example is sitting down in high winds. I often watch what the most experienced folks at the DZ are doing. I also like to think that *maybe* I can positively influence a newer jumper by saying "Nope, the winds are too high (or gusty) for me to feel comfortable. I'm staying on the ground for now." That alone might be what a younger jumper needs to hear to be comfortable "bucking the trend" if others are still jumping that day. I've done this at my home DZ and at DZs where I'm a visitor.

Peer pressure can be a powerful positive or negative force in this sport.

[billvon 2,400]

>I choose to jump because I love night jumps . . .

Story time -

I was spotting for a night jump one night, and the clouds were starting to roll in at sunset. We could see stars, and the clouds were still very scattered, so we decided to take off and see what sort of visibility we had.

As we climbed we passed through a thin scattered layer at 3000. I told everyone this, and that it was a bigger deal than during the day because you might not see the cloud until you were in it. I asked everyone if they were OK with this. They all were.

We got on jump run, and we were clear, but clouds were definitely building in the distance. Then I saw cloud to cloud lightning, pretty far away but in those building clouds. "That's it, we're not jumping," I said. We all landed in the King Air.

Afterwards 3 or 4 people came up to me and said "thanks so much for making that call. I really didn't want to jump through that layer but I didn't want to be the one who ruined it for everyone." I had this image of a whole planeload of people who didn't want to jump, but did because no one said anything.

Moral of the story I guess is don't be afraid to voice your worries to the spotter/JM/organizer.

[tr027 0]

So only 1 person on the load was creative enough to avoid the clouds by using the old lightning line. I thought more people knew about that one, it's the oldest night jump excuse in the book.

"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

[JohnMitchell 14]

I don't have statistics to back up what I feel, but I've seen accidents happen that I saw coming, that could have been prevented with a more aggresive attitude towards safety. Other accidents have come out of the clear blue sky without any warning I could perceive.

I'll take a DZ with a culture of safety any day, but it's no magic bullet. There is not a skydive you can make that can't kill you.

[Shark 0]

I don't recall mentioning any DZ either.
Check the local gear stores for their yearly sales of flash lights.

Maybe you should pay attention at the safety briefings.

[mjosparky 3]

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I often watch what the most experienced folks at the DZ are doing.

Being one of the "gray beards" of today, what I do when the winds come up or get gusty is what the old timers did when I was a newer jumpers. Just sitting back and watching the show.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[rasmack 0]

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... There is a reason some of us have "gray beards".

Beer foam?

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[RossDagley 0]

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I often watch what the most experienced folks at the DZ are doing.

Being one of the "gray beards" of today, what I do when the winds come up or get gusty is what the old timers did when I was a newer jumpers. Just sitting back and watching the show.

Sparky

As I was told - Windy days are where experienced jumpers stay on the ground, and up-jumpers become more experienced.