Go woke, go . . . .

[jakee 1,255]

2 hours ago, Coreece said:

I think it's hilarious how you're trying to revenge troll Brent for poking fun at AOC's climate change movie that made less than a mediocre youtube channel.  

It’s not AOC’s film.

[billvon 2,400]

9 hours ago, Coreece said:

A movie that quickly comes to mind as a comparison is "Blood Diamond."  But I don't think people would consider that a woke movie in any pejorative sense of the definition. 

I don't think of woke as a pejorative at all.  Indeed, people who do have to either intentionally misunderstand what it means, or get all their information from right wing media.

Quote

And somehow you considered that woke?

Again, it wasn't me - it was all the screaming right wingers who condemned it as proof that woke crap would lose money in the box office.  When it didn't, they had to very quickly revise their estimates of its wokeness.

Quote

Of course these Avatards . . .

Cool that you found a way to be more divisive!  You go.

Quote

I think it's hilarious how you're trying to revenge troll Brent for poking fun at AOC's climate change movie that made less than a mediocre youtube channel.

Not to worry.  If it starts to become successful, Brent (and you) will immediately claim it's not woke and it's not AOC's.

[Coreece 190]

17 hours ago, jakee said:

It’s not AOC’s film.

Haha, it's not that uncommon for people to refer to movies by the actor/character's name.  "Hey are you excited about Michael J Fox's new movie!?!?"  And ya I know, you might say "haha, AOC isn't an actor or charcater - got you again!"  But I'd just have to disagree.

Anyway, It's likely many people here don't even remember the name of her documentary and would have to do a google search for "AOC's movie" to find out, like I had to.  Besides, if I didn't use her name, many wouldn't even know what I was referring to, nor care why it did so poorly.

Funny tho that we didn't see this type of nit picking with "An inconvenient Truth" being called "Al Gore's Movie."  Billvon even posted an AP article about it:

Commentary from real scientists: 
------------------------------------
Scientists OK Gore's movie for accuracy
By SETH BORENSTEIN, AP Science Writer
48 minutes ago


WASHINGTON - The nation's top climate scientists are giving "An Inconvenient Truth," Al Gore's documentary on global warming, five stars for accuracy.

The former vice president's movie — replete with the prospect of a flooded New York City. . . .

Edited February 7, 2023 by Coreece

[Coreece 190]

9 hours ago, billvon said:

I don't think of woke as a pejorative at all. 

Ok, so the disconnect is with how the definition/usage of some words evolve overtime.   Since the 1930s, 'woke' was primarily referred to as an awakening wrt to racial prejudice and discrimination strictly impacting African Americans.  After BLM, the left decided to steal the term and apply it as a  blanketed summation of leftist political ideology, which was then criticized for cultural appropriation.  

So that's fine, keep your bastardized definition.  I never used the term anyway, that I can remember.  If somebody is being radically aware and socially paranoid, I'll just call it radical and paranoid.  Same thing if they're engaging in identity politics, cancel culture, mindless performative activism and/or self righteous moral superiority simply for the sake of division for a political edge.  No sense at this point in lumping it all together under yet another adulterated definition.

 

9 hours ago, billvon said:

Indeed, people who do have to either intentionally misunderstand what it means, or get all their information from right wing media.

Stop being so damn disingenuous already, lol.  It's not just the right.  Plenty of left-leaning writers, comedians, and political figures have voiced their concern about a politically radical far-left 'alt-woke' ideology.  

Even Obama spoke out against it:

"Obama has in the past criticized what he in 2019 called “woke” culture that leaves little room for forgiveness for misdeeds of people in public life." 

“This idea of purity and you’re never compromised and you’re always politically woke and all that stuff, you should get over that quickly,”

“A lot of the dangers of cancel culture and ‘we’re just going to be condemning people all the time,’ at least among my daughters, they’ll acknowledge that among their peer group or in college campuses, you’ll see people going overboard,”

“The world is messy. There are ambiguities. People who do really good stuff have flaws.”

"calling others out on social media is “not activism.”  Like, if I tweet or hashtag about how you didn’t do something right or used the wrong verb, then I can sit back and feel pretty good about myself because ‘man, you see how woke I was, I called you out’ ”

[jakee 1,255]

3 hours ago, Coreece said:

Funny tho that we didn't see this type of nit picking with "An inconvenient Truth" being called "Al Gore's Movie."  Billvon even posted an AP article about it:

Commentary from real scientists: 
------------------------------------
Scientists OK Gore's movie for accuracy
By SETH BORENSTEIN, AP Science Writer
48 minutes ago


WASHINGTON - The nation's top climate scientists are giving "An Inconvenient Truth," Al Gore's documentary on global warming, five stars for accuracy.

The former vice president's movie — replete with the prospect of a flooded New York City. . . .

An Inconvenient Truth was Al Gore’s movie. He’s the only credited writer of it.

[jakee 1,255]

3 hours ago, Coreece said:

Ok, so the disconnect is with how the definition/usage of some words evolve overtime.   Since the 1930s, 'woke' was primarily referred to as an awakening wrt to racial prejudice and discrimination strictly impacting African Americans.  After BLM, the left decided to steal the term and apply it as a  blanketed summation of leftist political ideology, which was then criticized for cultural appropriation.  

Bullshit. After BLM brought the idea of ‘woke’ into mainstream discussion the right started using it as a catch all term for any perceived lefty thing they disagree with. The major right wing newspapers over here have taken to calling cycle lanes woke. Seriously - they think that not driving a car is woke. Explain that to me? 
 

At a big sports event last year one of the favourites was arrested the night before because he angrily confronted two kids who had been repeatedly knocking on his door and running away past midnight. An Internet forum commentator said ‘woke parenting’ was to blame. What the fuck does that even mean?

3 hours ago, Coreece said:

 Even Obama spoke out against it:

"Obama has in the past criticized what he in 2019 called “woke” culture that leaves little room for forgiveness for misdeeds of people in public life." 

He’s not criticising wokeness, he’s criticising zealotry.

3 hours ago, Coreece said:

“calling others out on social media is “not activism.”  Like, if I tweet or hashtag about how you didn’t do something right or used the wrong verb, then I can sit back and feel pretty good about myself because ‘man, you see how woke I was, I called you out’ ”

He’s not criticising wokeness, he’s criticising laziness.

[Coreece 190]

26 minutes ago, jakee said:

An Inconvenient Truth was Al Gore’s movie. He’s the only credited writer of it.

Ya I saw that too, but film was the brainchild of Laurie David and the director/producers documented and created the screen adaptation for public speeches he had already given, much like AOC's film documented her own speaking engagements/interviews.

[billvon 2,400]

13 hours ago, Coreece said:

Ok, so the disconnect is with how the definition/usage of some words evolve overtime.   Since the 1930s, 'woke' was primarily referred to as an awakening wrt to racial prejudice and discrimination strictly impacting African Americans.  After BLM, the left decided to steal the term and apply it as a  blanketed summation of leftist political ideology, which was then criticized for cultural appropriation.  

Nope.  Woke has always been defined as being alert to social injustice, especially with regards to racism.  That hasn't changed.  You don't get to redefine words when you are losing an argument - even if the right wing wants to use it as a pejorative.

[Coreece 190]

8 hours ago, billvon said:

21 hours ago, Coreece said:

Ok, so the disconnect is with how the definition/usage of some words evolve overtime.   Since the 1930s, 'woke' was primarily referred to as an awakening wrt to racial prejudice and discrimination strictly impacting African Americans.  After BLM, the left decided to steal the term and apply it as a  blanketed summation of leftist political ideology, which was then criticized for cultural appropriation.  

Nope.  Woke has always been defined as being alert to social injustice, especially with regards to racism.  

Right.  It was a term in the African American Vernacular referring to social injustice against blacks that's been around since the 1920s or 30s.  Modern leftist co-opted and imposed it's own political ideology on the term that now includes things like awareness of climate change, gun control, abortion, Avatar, vegan catering, saving whales and editing out 10-minutes of gun violence from feature films.

I think much of the criticism from both the left and right wrt "wokeism" is in addressing  underlying issues  like identity politics and cancel culture which in a sense is a modern extension of being woke.  And then of course there are those solely on the right that use it to criticize practically everything liberal just for the sake of it.

Here are some excerpts form a rather interesting article I found on Vox that explains the history, if it helps:

 

A history of “wokeness”
Stay woke: How a Black activist watchword got co-opted in the culture war.

Before 2014, the call to “stay woke” was, for many people, unheard of. The idea behind it was common within Black communities at that point — the notion that staying “woke” and alert to the deceptions of other people was a basic survival tactic.

“woke” has evolved into a single-word summation of leftist political ideology, centered on social justice politics and critical race theory. This framing of “woke” is bipartisan: It’s used as a shorthand for political progressiveness by the left, and as a denigration of leftist culture by the right.

On the right, “woke” — like its cousin “canceled” — bespeaks “political correctness” gone awry, and the term itself is usually used sarcastically.

But as use of the word spreads, what people actually mean by “woke” seems less clear than ever.  After all, none of these recent political concepts has anything to do with the idea of demanding that people “stay woke” against police brutality. Despite renewed activism against police brutality in 2020, the way that terms like “woke” and “wokeness” are used outside of the Black Lives Matter community seems to bear little connection to their original context, on either the right and the left.

Shifting a Black Lives Matter slogan away from its original meaning is arguably the least woke thing ever — yet that seems to be just what happened with, of all things, “woke” itself.

The earliest known examples of wokeness as a concept revolve around the idea of Black consciousness “waking up” to a new reality or activist framework and dates back to the early 20th century. In 1923, a collection of aphorisms and ideas by the Jamaican philosopher and social activist Marcus Garvey included the summons “Wake up Ethiopia! Wake up Africa!” as a call to global Black citizens to become more socially and politically conscious.

To be woke is to have a native relationship to Black language, culture, and knowledge of social issues that arise in our lived experiences”

because Black Americans know their language is constantly being appropriated, the language itself is constantly changing. “By the time these terms get into the mainstream,” he observed, “new ones have already appeared. [...] A few Negroes guard the idiom so fervently they will consciously invent a new term as soon as they hear the existing one coming from a white’s lips.”

By 2018, the cultural reception of “woke” had turned chilly: An NPR commentator begged leftists to retire the term, and the connotation of “woke” as a phony show of progressive activism had taken hold on the right.

“woke” seems to represent a consciously progressive mindset — but that concept is loaded with irony and cynicism. Even on the left, the idea of being “woke” can be a double-edged sword, often used to suggest an aggressive, performative take on progressive politics that only makes things worse.

“discourse” can be about a zillion different things, but attaching “woke” to it usually denotes a perception of embittered exhaustion at progressive semantics and arguments.

What’s telling is that the exhaustion seems to come from moderates and leftists themselves as often as from conservatives — as if there’s a shared agreement that embodying wokeness is a kind of trap, no matter what side of the aisle you’re on.

https://www.vox.com/culture/21437879/stay-woke-wokeness-history-origin-evolution-controversy

[jakee 1,255]

5 hours ago, Coreece said:

 

I think much of the criticism from both the left and right wrt "wokeism" is in addressing  underlying issues  like identity politics and cancel culture which in a sense is a modern extension of being woke. 

In what sense are they a modern extension of your strict definition of wokeness?

if they are though, does that make Ron DeSantis the wokest man in America?

[wolfriverjoe 1,341]

19 hours ago, billvon said:

Nope.  Woke has always been defined as being alert to social injustice, especially with regards to racism.  That hasn't changed.  You don't get to redefine words when you are losing an argument - even if the right wing wants to use it as a pejorative.

Funny thing:

Virtually everyone using 'woke' these days is an 'Alt-right' type using it as a pejorative.

[Coreece 190]

13 hours ago, jakee said:

18 hours ago, Coreece said:

I think much of the criticism from both the left and right wrt "wokeism" is in addressing  underlying issues  like identity politics and cancel culture which in a sense is a modern extension of being woke. 

In what sense are they a modern extension of your strict definition of wokeness?

I was attempting to link cancel culture to wokeness in a broad sense, where a person might face cancellation for making a statement or taking an action that is deemed un-woke, or if their words are seen as an offense by a group that identifies as woke or is perceived to be woke.

[SkyDekker 1,123]

1 hour ago, Coreece said:

I was attempting to link cancel culture to wokeness in a broad sense, where a person might face cancellation for making a statement or taking an action that is deemed un-woke, or if their words are seen as an offense by a group that identifies as woke or is perceived to be woke.

Ah so cancel culture is only in those specific items. Trying to cancel Disney or M&Ms is like totally different.....

[jakee 1,255]

1 hour ago, Coreece said:

I was attempting to link cancel culture to wokeness in a broad sense, where a person might face cancellation for making a statement or taking an action that is deemed un-woke, or if their words are seen as an offense by a group that identifies as woke or is perceived to be woke.

Right but how does that have anything to do with the definition of woke you spent the rest of that post explaining to us?

 

(And again, if cancel culture is linked then DeSantis must be the most woke person in America)

[billvon 2,400]

1 hour ago, Coreece said:

I was attempting to link cancel culture to wokeness in a broad sense . . .

Sure.  Others have tried to link pedophilia, economic failure and crimes against whites to being woke.  That way they can link liberal wokeness to bad stuff and make liberal (and woke) into an insult.

However, if you look at the reality, it is the right wing that's been pushing cancel culture hard in the past five years or so, often using the "woke" term to do it.  

Conservatives have called for boycotts of "woke" Disney movies that include The Little Mermaid (because there is no such thing as a black mermaid apparently) and Buzz Lightyear (because two married women kissed.)  They have called for boycotts of rides when they are updated - for example, the Pirates of the Caribbean recently had its "wench auction" revamped, and conservatives immediately condemned it as the latest horrible Disney woke disaster.  In fact, there is another thread here where conservatives gloat over their successful "cancellation" of Disney.

And of course until recently they said the same thing about Avatar 2, as mentioned above.

The Blue State Conservative news site has called for boycotts of 12 woke companies (like JP Morgan) that conservatives should avoid.

Trump announced recently that he wanted to cancel the 17 GOP members of Congress who voted to hold him accountable for the Jan 6th insurrection.

In Georgia Republicans have cancelled early voting and have cancelled the election volunteers who used to help with elections, who did things like give water to people in hours-long voting lines.

In Arizona Republicans tried to get a bill passed that would allow the legislature to cancel public voting, and instead just award Arizona's electoral votes to a candidate of the legislature's choosing.  Fortunately they failed.

Conservatives have called for the cancellation of Colin Kaepernick, Kathy Griffin, Whoopi Goldberg, non-sexy M+Ms, Campbell's Soup, the group formerly known as the Dixie Chicks, Guinness, Hallmark, Nike, Pepsi, and the New York Times.  They have actually canceled the term "climate change" - Floridia conservatives passed a law banning the use of that term in any government publication or website.

But for people not paying attention, it's easy for FOX to blame liberals for all that.

 

[Coreece 190]

22 hours ago, jakee said:

Right but how does that have anything to do with the definition of woke you spent the rest of that post explaining to us?

Nothing, at least not in the sense of the historical definition.  People like Bill Maher and other left leaning comedians that I agree with in their criticisms of cancel culture are using the word "woke" as a synonym for "political correctness gone awry" and is usually used sarcastically or to point out a phony show of progressive activism as referenced in the article.

As I mentioned upthread,  if one is going to criticize cancel culture, then it's probably wise at this point to do so without invoking  'wokeness' given all the confusion:

From the article:

"as use of the word spreads, what people actually mean by “woke” seems less clear than ever.

“Discourse” can be about a zillion different things, but attaching “woke” to it usually denotes a perception of embittered exhaustion at progressive semantics and arguments.

What’s telling is that the exhaustion seems to come from moderates and leftists themselves as often as from conservatives — as if there’s a shared agreement that embodying wokeness is a kind of trap, no matter what side of the aisle you’re on."

And that's interesting because we can see how that's all playing out in this very thread.

[Coreece 190]

21 hours ago, billvon said:

Conservatives have called for boycotts of "woke" Disney movies that include The Little Mermaid (because there is no such thing as a black mermaid apparently) and Buzz Lightyear (because two married women kissed.)  They have called for boycotts of rides when they are updated - for example, the Pirates of the Caribbean recently had its "wench auction" revamped, and conservatives immediately condemned it as the latest horrible Disney woke disaster.  In fact, there is another thread here where conservatives gloat over their successful "cancellation" of Disney.

And of course until recently they said the same thing about Avatar 2, as mentioned above.

The Blue State Conservative news site has called for boycotts of 12 woke companies (like JP Morgan) that conservatives should avoid.

Trump announced recently that he wanted to cancel the 17 GOP members of Congress who voted to hold him accountable for the Jan 6th insurrection.

In Georgia Republicans have cancelled early voting and have cancelled the election volunteers who used to help with elections, who did things like give water to people in hours-long voting lines.

In Arizona Republicans tried to get a bill passed that would allow the legislature to cancel public voting, and instead just award Arizona's electoral votes to a candidate of the legislature's choosing.  Fortunately they failed.

Conservatives have called for the cancellation of Colin Kaepernick, Kathy Griffin, Whoopi Goldberg, non-sexy M+Ms, Campbell's Soup, the group formerly known as the Dixie Chicks, Guinness, Hallmark, Nike, Pepsi, and the New York Times.  They have actually canceled the term "climate change" - Floridia conservatives passed a law banning the use of that term in any government publication or website.

Great, I'm glad you've begun to recognize the negative consequences of cancel culture and its role in perpetuating this divisive and fruitless culture war. 

[jakee 1,255]

51 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Nothing, at least not in the sense of the historical definition.  People like Bill Maher and other left leaning comedians that I agree with in their criticisms of cancel culture are using the word "woke" as a synonym for "political correctness gone awry" and is usually used sarcastically or to point out a phony show of progressive activism as referenced in the article.

So like I said to begin with, it’s anti-woke people trying to redefine woke to mean any lefty thing they disagree with. Glad we won you round to that.

53 minutes ago, Coreece said:

As I mentioned upthread,  if one is going to criticize cancel culture, then it's probably wise at this point to do so without invoking  'wokeness' given all the confusion:

Upthread you said cancel culture was an extension of wokeness. Do you wanna make your mind up then get back to me on that?

55 minutes ago, Coreece said:

“as use of the word spreads, what people actually mean by “woke” seems less clear than ever.

Yes, exactly! This is the intention of the anti-woke people. Just because they’re dishonest doesn’t mean they’re not good at what they do.

 

[billvon 2,400]

2 hours ago, jakee said:

Yes, exactly! This is the intention of the anti-woke people. Just because they’re dishonest doesn’t mean they’re not good at what they do.

Yep.  And similar people have tried to do the same thing for the terms socialism and progressive.  And as George Orwell has noted, the term "fascism" has come to mean nothing more than "that which I dislike."

And this is nothing new; redefining words for political purposes goes back centuries.  In 400BC, during the Athens vs Sparta conflict, Thucydides wrote that "they even changed the agreed-upon meanings of words to the opposite of the right ones. Rash impudence was called 'courageous loyalty'; careful deliberation, 'specious cowardice'…. Getting revenge was considered better than never being wronged in the first place…. The cause of all this was hunger for power motivated by greed and ambition."

[Coreece 190]

3 hours ago, jakee said:

4 hours ago, Coreece said:

Nothing, at least not in the sense of the historical definition.  People like Bill Maher and other left leaning comedians that I agree with in their criticisms of cancel culture are using the word "woke" as a synonym for "political correctness gone awry" and is usually used sarcastically or to point out a phony show of progressive activism as referenced in the article.

So like I said to begin with, it’s anti-woke people trying to redefine woke to mean any lefty thing they disagree with.

Well now you're ignoring the part where it said:

“woke” has evolved into a single-word summation of leftist political ideology, centered on social justice politics and critical race theory. This framing of “woke” is bipartisan: It’s used as a shorthand for political progressiveness by the left, and as a denigration of leftist culture by the right.

Shifting a Black Lives Matter slogan away from its original meaning is arguably the least woke thing ever — yet that seems to be just what happened with, of all things, “woke” itself.

To be woke is to have a native relationship to Black language, culture, and knowledge of social issues that arise in our lived experiences” 

Black Americans know their language is constantly being appropriated. . ."

 

So maybe "woke" wouldn't have these negative connotations if liberals didn't steal it from the AAVE  and weaponize it for their own political advantage in a culture war.

I mean I just showed you how blacks are calling this theft of the language cultural appropriation and you guys deliberately refuse to acknowledge it, just like Bill is refusing to acknowledge that both blacks and natives have called Avatar a racist film and should be boycotted, yet here he is still boasting about how great it is to score political points in some silly woke war with Brent.

So welcome to the club, I guess. . .

 

[wmw999 2,123]

14 minutes ago, Coreece said:

“woke” has evolved into a single-word summation of leftist political ideology, centered on social justice politics and critical race theory. This framing of “woke” is bipartisan: It’s used as a shorthand for political progressiveness by the left, and as a denigration of leftist culture by the right.

I'd say it has a wider range of shading of meaning to the left than to the right; kind of like how there are many shades of Christianity as seen by a Christian, but only one or two as seen by (for example) a Muslim (there are also many shades of Islam). So just as Ron doesn't mean the same thing by calling somone a Christian than I might, that difference is likely to escape someone unfamiliar with Christianity other than from the outside.

Wendy P.

[billvon 2,400]

3 hours ago, Coreece said:

“woke” has evolved into a single-word summation of leftist political ideology, centered on social justice politics and critical race theory. This framing of “woke” is bipartisan: It’s used as a shorthand for political progressiveness by the left, and as a denigration of leftist culture by the right.

Again, just because you want a word to mean something, doesn't mean that it means that thing.

Words mean things.

[jakee 1,255]

6 hours ago, Coreece said:

Well now you're ignoring the part where it said:

“woke” has evolved into a single-word summation of leftist political ideology, centered on social justice politics and critical race theory. This framing of “woke” is bipartisan: It’s used as a shorthand for political progressiveness by the left, and as a denigration of leftist culture by the right.

And yet you’ve only been able to give examples of anti woke people doing it. 

[kallend 1,625]

9 hours ago, billvon said:

Again, just because you want a word to mean something, doesn't mean that it means that thing.

Words mean things.

If enough people want a word to mean something, it takes on that meaning to the exclusion of its previous one.  "Gay" comes to mind.  There are others.

[winsor 186]

19 minutes ago, kallend said:

If enough people want a word to mean something, it takes on that meaning to the exclusion of its previous one.  "Gay" comes to mind.  There are others.

Any casual student of logic is familiar with the different types of definition, which often makes the meaning in one context entirely independent of the meaning in another.  Definitions may be Lexical, Stipulative, Precising, Legal, Medical, Nautical, Technical et al.. 

"Fiber' to a dietician and to a material scientist are entirely different things, only vaguely related.

In addition, the same word in another language is sometimes the same, sometimes related, and other times completely different.

 

BSBD,

Winsor