Home solar system blues

[GeorgiaDon 340]

I live on a small farm, with the house set back in the forest a couple of hundred yards from the open pasture.  Last March we (my wife and I) signed a contract to have a solar system installed.  The solar panels were supposed to go on the roof of the barn as it is out in the pasture; our house is not suitable because it is surrounded by trees we don't want to remove.  We (together with the sales rep) marked off a route to trench to bury the power cables; that came to just under 300 yards which we were told was the maximum distance they would do.  The total price was a lot more than I was expecting (~ $75,000) but if the system performed as promised it would eventually pay off.

Things went off the rails almost immediately.  When the crew showed up to install the frame for the panels they decided the barn roof was not suitable (although the sales rep assured us it was) and they installed a ground mount in back of the barn, in a place that is in shade for a couple of hours each morning and evening.  They dug a trench that did not follow the route we flagged, but rather meandered some 450 yards across the pasture and up the path from the house to the pasture.  That was in June, and nothing has been done since.  We have to jump back and forth over the trench to get from the house to the pasture, and grass has grown up to where you can't see the trench in places.  My wife and I, and our dogs and livestock, have stumbled into the trench many times; it's a wonder no-one has broken an ankle or a leg by now.

While installing the battery in the basement and the control panel on the front of the house (instead of the side where the plans called for it to go) the contractors drilled through the brick wall, making a big hole and knocking loose bricks that they just shoved back in the wall with no mortar.  Inside the house, to route the electrical cable they cut completely through a structural component of the foundation.  It is possible that the house will have to be jacked up to properly make repairs.

After that, we had months of being put off because supposedly this part or that part was backordered.  So, the solar panels and electrical cables were never installed.  We got an email that there is a lawsuit between the solar company and the battery manufacturer.  The solar company says there is a defective component to the battery which causes it to perform poorly and possibly catch fire, while the battery manufacturer blames the solar company for installing their systems incorrectly.

We sent the solar company our inspection report on the damage to the house and asked for a plan for them to fix it, but never heard back (surprise!).  A couple of weeks ago we got a letter from the court system in North Carolina to inform us that the solar company has declared Chapter 7 bankruptcy, is being dissolved, and their assets are being sold off.  Chapter 7 means they are actually being liquidated, unlike Chapter 11 which is reorganization.  The bankruptcy was filed on such short notice their own crews were caught unawares in the field and only found out when the company credit cards were declined when they tried to pay for gas or their hotel rooms.

At this point I do not know who actually owns the components that were installed.  No other solar company in the area uses the battery or other components that are in place.  I will file a claim with the bankruptcy court for the repairs to the house but I know I will be at the end of a long list of creditors.

So, now we have started to talk to other solar providers to get an idea of our options.  Basically, it seems that will mean installing a whole different system without using anything of what is in place. 

The first new supplier we had out to give us an estimate claims that, even if the system proposed by the initial company had been installed, it would have been too small and it would have delivered significantly less power than we were told it would.  The system suggested by the new supplier would generate 12,000 kWh in the first year, so about 2/3 or our energy usage.  That system is priced at about $94,000.  They make a big deal about the federal tax credit (30%), but that would come as a credit not a refund so it would take a few years to be realized, if Republicans don't cancel it in the meantime.  At that price the savings on our electricity bill (over the next 25 years) would be significantly less than the cost of the system.  What  am I missing here?  I also have a suspicion (but certainly don't know for certain) that the federal tax credit is allowing businesses to increase the cost (i.e. profitability) of their systems.

Anyway, sorry for the long rant.  Besides just venting, I want to let people know that they need to be very careful about who they choose to do business with in this industry.  At least I don't have to pay anything on the initial system as it was never completely installed and so the finance company has withdrawn our contract.  Apparently (from what has popped up on line) many others are in the position of paying on a system that never worked, or only worked far below expectation, and can't get anyone to service their system, while they still have to pay for electricity from the grid.

Also, if anyone has had a system installed recently, or who has insider knowledge of the industry, is $94,000 for a 12,000 kWh/yr household system reasonable in the current market?

Edited October 25, 2022 by GeorgiaDon
fixed title

[lippy 775]

Sorry man, that sounds rough. Was it a matter of a company trying to jump into the industry to make a buck and they got over their heads? 

[GeorgiaDon 340]

No, the bankrupt company was a large company with operations over several states.  Definitely not a fly-by-night startup.

[JoeWeber 2,325]

2 minutes ago, GeorgiaDon said:

No, the bankrupt company was a large company with operations over several states.  Definitely not a fly-by-night startup.

Was it Brent Solar?

[GeorgiaDon 340]

That's pretty funny, but no.  I think Brent Solar is the system with solar panels mounted on a chimney, and it only works if you shovel coal into it.

Not Solar King either.

[brenthutch 388]

2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Was it Brent Solar?

BrentSolar would have gone with a system that utilized stored solar energy in a chemical form. Either solar nuggets (coal) or solar syrup (oil).  Not what the wackos would advocate, however a much more effective, reliable and economical solution 

[Phil1111 913]

4 hours ago, GeorgiaDon said:

I live on a small farm, ....

Well you're not the first person to have a bad experience with contractors.Not that that helps you.

[billeisele 122]

Sorry to hear you got screwed over. I've reviewed many solar proposals and none of them used accurate data and projections to calculate the savings. or provided full disclosure on critical issues. The proposals had other significant issues that put all the risk on the homeowner with no mechanism to recover when the system underperformed. I'm aware of the company that recently filed bankruptcy. I suspect that it's the beginning of many. 
At the lower end of energy prices which is where the SE is, the economics just don't work. In a case where ist does work (on paper), IMO, the equipment and performance risks are too high. 

It's a sad situation when the consumer can be lied to and they have no recourse. Yes, the consumer signed the contract so it's their fault but the "fraud" that occurs to get to the signing is crazy. 
And yes, solar does work in some situations. I'm not anti-solar but am anti-fraud. There are plenty of folks that are hating they signed those contracts. 

[Phil1111 913]

33 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

BrentSolar would have gone with a system that utilized stored solar energy in a chemical form. Either solar nuggets (coal) or solar syrup (oil).  Not what the wackos would advocate, however a much more effective, reliable and economical solution 

The past decade has seen more than 50 US coal companies fall into bankruptcy and over 100 gigawatts (GW) of coal capacity either retired or slated for closure.

14 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Well you're not the first person to have a bad experience investments that went bad.

Over the past seven years,(to 2021) "there have been 274 oil and gas producer bankruptcies. In the same period, 330 oilfield services and midstream companies have filed for bankruptcy, bringing the combined North American industry total to more than 600 industry bankruptcies involving over $321 billion in secured and unsecured debt. "That is about a third of a trillion for those with a MBA.

Why does Brent always pick the worst performing option?

Edited October 25, 2022 by Phil1111

[brenthutch 388]

56 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

The past decade has seen more than 50 US coal companies fall into bankruptcy and over 100 gigawatts (GW) of coal capacity either retired or slated for closure.

Over the past seven years,(to 2021) "there have been 274 oil and gas producer bankruptcies. In the same period, 330 oilfield services and midstream companies have filed for bankruptcy, bringing the combined North American industry total to more than 600 industry bankruptcies involving over $321 billion in secured and unsecured debt. "That is about a third of a trillion for those with a MBA.

Why does Brent always pick the worst performing option?

I pick the winning option 

 

[lippy 775]

1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

I pick the winning option 

 

Classic Brent….random chart posted, mike dropped

[JoeWeber 2,325]

48 minutes ago, lippy said:

Classic Brent….random chart posted, mike dropped

Pretty easy to read, though.

[lippy 775]

3 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Pretty easy to read, though.

The chart….or Brent?

[billvon 2,433]

7 hours ago, GeorgiaDon said:

Also, if anyone has had a system installed recently, or who has insider knowledge of the industry, is $94,000 for a 12,000 kWh/yr household system reasonable in the current market?

So you got the batteries out of the deal?  Well, better than nothing.  What kind are they?

What else was installed?  And what size system (in KW) did they plan to install?

You should be able to drop some direct-burial aluminum wire in the trench and cover it up.  8 gauge should get you to about 3% loss (typical guideline) for a 450V 6KW array.   That will run you about $1K.

Around here solar installs cost around $3.80 a watt for straight grid tie, between $4 and $7 a watt for battery system depending on the battery ratio.  You can use the NREL tables to figure out the insolation in your area, and from there get an estimate of how much power you'll get from a given system.  I usually use NREL sunlight hours * system size (STC DC rating) * .75 (derating for inverters/nonideal orientation) for total kilowatt-hours a day generation.

Shading for a few hours in the morning and/or evening isn't that big a deal since production drops way off during those times.  Shading in the middle of the day is deadly.

The roof issue will depend on a lot of things, including the kind of mounting system they use and the exact type of roof.

 

 

[billvon 2,433]

So working backwards:

North Carolina gets about 4.5 hours/day of direct sun, averaged over a year.  For your case (33kwhr a day - wow that's a lot) you'd need a 10 kilowatt system to cover your usage.  If the link below is correct, that means you'll be paying $24,900 before incentives/rebates for a standard system.  Price adders like an array 300 yards from the inverter will increase that of course but that's where you should start.

If your particular microclimate changes that (i.e. a valley that is often foggy) that price will go up.

Also do NOT do any sort of power-purchase agreement where the installer tells you they will install the system for free and then charge you less for power.  Those go awry very often.

https://www.solarreviews.com/solar-panel-cost/north-carolina

[JoeWeber 2,325]

40 minutes ago, billvon said:

So you got the batteries out of the deal?  Well, better than nothing.  What kind are they?

What else was installed?  And what size system (in KW) did they plan to install?

You should be able to drop some direct-burial aluminum wire in the trench and cover it up.  8 gauge should get you to about 3% loss (typical guideline) for a 450V 6KW array.   That will run you about $1K.

Around here solar installs cost around $3.80 a watt for straight grid tie, between $4 and $7 a watt for battery system depending on the battery ratio.  You can use the NREL tables to figure out the insolation in your area, and from there get an estimate of how much power you'll get from a given system.  I usually use NREL sunlight hours * system size (STC DC rating) * .75 (derating for inverters/nonideal orientation) for total kilowatt-hours a day generation.

Shading for a few hours in the morning and/or evening isn't that big a deal since production drops way off during those times.  Shading in the middle of the day is deadly.

The roof issue will depend on a lot of things, including the kind of mounting system they use and the exact type of roof.

 

 

Gotta tell you, Bill, you seem to have a real knack for this sort of thing. Along the same lines I need to put some headlight reflectors on the front gate, any suggestions?

[rifleman 61]

Posting this here as I didn't know where else to post it. I found this article while searching for information about Fibonacci sequences in trees as I'm a scale modeller. This article has interesting ideas about how to improve efficiency in solar arrays.
https://www.amnh.org/learn-teach/curriculum-collections/young-naturalist-awards/winning-essays/2011/the-secret-of-the-fibonacci-sequence-in-trees