billvon 2,477 #51 June 16, 2022 2 hours ago, brenthutch said: If gas prices rose at the same rate as global temperatures we would still have sub $3.00 gas And by your arguments, gas prices would therefore not be rising! You have a new thing to deny. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,956 #52 June 16, 2022 2 hours ago, wmw999 said: Boy, now there’s a convincing argument! Wendy P. If wishes were horses beggars would have three dollar a gallon gas Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 390 #53 June 16, 2022 2 hours ago, billvon said: And by your arguments, gas prices would therefore not be rising! You have a new thing to deny. You still haven’t explained why India and China are building hundreds of coal fired power plants when wind and solar are cheaper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 390 #54 June 17, 2022 4 hours ago, brenthutch said: You still haven’t explained why India and China are building hundreds of coal fired power plants when wind and solar are cheaper. No, really, I want to know. You make a compelling argument for wind and solar, I just want to know why China, India and much of the rest of the world are not on board? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeWeber 2,355 #55 June 17, 2022 8 minutes ago, brenthutch said: No, really, I want to know. You make a compelling argument for wind and solar, I just want to know why China, India and much of the rest of the world are not on board? Because they have lot's of coal and don't give a rats ass about anything but themselves, you know, like nearly half of America. Maybe if, like cigarette packs, pictures of flooding in Bangladesh were required to be displayed on boxes of Bisquick you'd get the picture. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 390 #56 June 17, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, JoeWeber said: Because they have lot's of coal and don't give a rats ass about anything but themselves, you know, like nearly half of America. Maybe if, like cigarette packs, pictures of flooding in Bangladesh were required to be displayed on boxes of Bisquick you'd get the picture. But deaths from flooding are much less than they used to be, including in Bangladesh. Things have gotten better not worse. That said, if wind and solar were truly cheaper the self serving option would be wind and solar, not coal. Edited June 17, 2022 by brenthutch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 390 #57 June 17, 2022 (edited) “At Greece's largest coal mine, controlled explosions and the roar of giant excavators scooping up blasted rock have once again become routine. Coal production has been ramped up at the site near the northern Greek city of Kozani as the war in Ukraine forced many European nations to rethink their energy supplies. Coal, long treated as a legacy fuel in Europe, is now helping the continent safeguard its power supply and cope with the dramatic rise in natural gas prices caused by the war. Electricity generated by coal in the European Union jumped by 19% in the fourth quarter of 2021 from a year earlier, according to the EU’s energy directorate, faster than any other source of power “ https://www.independent.co.uk/news/greece-ap-european-union-electricity-ukraine-b2102251.html 19% increase BEFORE the Ukraine war, imagine how fast coal use is growing now. Someone needs to tell the EU that wind and solar are cheaper and more scalable. Olof, BillV where are you? Edited June 17, 2022 by brenthutch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olofscience 431 #58 June 17, 2022 (edited) 44 minutes ago, brenthutch said: Someone needs to tell the EU that wind and solar are cheaper and more scalable. Olof, BillV where are you? Yes, pretty easy to answer actually. Wind and solar are cheaper, but they take time to build up. Russia's action in Ukraine means they've had not much time to cobble together a replacement quickly. The coal plants are already there, Germany is just delaying their retirement. So...is your new argument that the IEA report was wrong? 44 minutes ago, brenthutch said: 19% increase BEFORE the Ukraine war, imagine how fast coal use is growing now. The increase was due to the tensions because of Russia's troop buildup. It's right there in your source link! Quote jumped by 19% in the fourth quarter of 2021 from a year earlier...as tension spiked between Russia and Ukraine and ahead of the invasion in late February. This increase was ENTIRELY due to Russian aggression, nothing else. Edited June 17, 2022 by olofscience Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 390 #59 June 17, 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, olofscience said: Yes, pretty easy to answer actually. Wind and solar are cheaper, but they take time to build up. Russia's action in Ukraine means they've had not much time to cobble together a replacement quickly. Except coal use rose 19% BEFORE Russia’s actions in Ukraine. Edited June 17, 2022 by brenthutch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olofscience 431 #60 June 17, 2022 1 minute ago, brenthutch said: Except coal use rose 19% BEFORE Russia’s actions in Ukraine. Again...read your source link! Quote Electricity generated by coal in the European Union jumped by 19% in the fourth quarter of 2021 from a year earlier, according to the EU’s energy directorate, faster than any other source of power, as tension spiked between Russia and Ukraine and ahead of the invasion in late February. It's like you just post on this forum to get assistance reading articles... I did a quick google search here to help you: 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,178 #61 June 17, 2022 10 minutes ago, olofscience said: It's like you just post on this forum to get assistance reading articles... You are too easily goaded Wendy P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
olofscience 431 #62 June 17, 2022 21 minutes ago, wmw999 said: You are too easily goaded Wendy P. It's a scorching hot day here, way too hot to be teaching an adult how to read Thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,683 #63 June 17, 2022 1 hour ago, wmw999 said: You are too easily goaded Wendy P. Forum rules prohibit trolling. You know this. 2 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 390 #64 June 17, 2022 “global power generation from coal is expected to jump by 9% in 2021 to an all-time high of 10,350 terawatt-hours, according to the IEA’s Coal 2021 report.” https://electrek.co/2021/12/17/coal-production-will-rise-to-its-highest-ever-levels-in-2022-says-iea/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,155 #65 June 17, 2022 3 hours ago, olofscience said: Again...read your source link! You new here? Anything beyond 140 characters and it gets a little confusing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 390 #66 June 17, 2022 1 hour ago, SkyDekker said: You new here? Anything beyond 140 characters and it gets a little confusing. Coal use up. Full stop. I hope that clears up your confusion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,477 #67 June 17, 2022 Coal, the bankruptcy kid: (On the plus side, perhaps that means that Trump has found a new way to go bankrupt. He really needs to get in to coal.) ================= Vast majority of new coal-power plants ‘uneconomic’ Billions in state and corporate cash going into more than 620 planned projects risk becoming stranded assets, warns report China has plans to install another 368 coal power plants that would all fail to recoup their cost, according to new analysis Alex Hamer JUNE 30 2021 The vast majority of new coal-power plants being planned will struggle to make back their upfront costs, including all of those under construction in China, according to a new report by an independent think-tank. It is calculated that 92 per cent of facilities proposed or under construction globally would cost more to build than the future cash flow they would generate, according to research from Carbon Tracker, even under a “business as usual” scenario where countries implement fewer carbon emissions restrictions and miss Paris climate accord targets. ================= https://www.ft.com/content/cf4399bb-bb6b-4465-95e6-6777bc0ab070 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 390 #68 June 18, 2022 (edited) 9 hours ago, billvon said: Coal, the bankruptcy kid: (On the plus side, perhaps that means that Trump has found a new way to go bankrupt. He really needs to get in to coal.) ================= Vast majority of new coal-power plants ‘uneconomic’ Billions in state and corporate cash going into more than 620 planned projects risk becoming stranded assets, warns report China has plans to install another 368 coal power plants that would all fail to recoup their cost, according to new analysis Alex Hamer JUNE 30 2021 The vast majority of new coal-power plants being planned will struggle to make back their upfront costs, including all of those under construction in China, according to a new report by an independent think-tank. It is calculated that 92 per cent of facilities proposed or under construction globally would cost more to build than the future cash flow they would generate, according to research from Carbon Tracker, even under a “business as usual” scenario where countries implement fewer carbon emissions restrictions and miss Paris climate accord targets. ================= https://www.ft.com/content/cf4399bb-bb6b-4465-95e6-6777bc0ab070 Then why are they doing it? Presumably they are rational actors with the same access to the information you are citing, what is their motivation? FWIW I am agnostic with regard to coal, for me it is just a rational decision based on economics. Edited June 18, 2022 by brenthutch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeWeber 2,355 #69 June 18, 2022 1 hour ago, brenthutch said: Then why are they doing it? Presumably they are rational actors with the same access to the information you are citing, what is their motivation? FWIW I am agnostic with regard to coal, for me it is just a rational decision based on economics. Same reason others invest in solar: it’s the future! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,477 #70 June 18, 2022 2 hours ago, brenthutch said: Then why are they doing it? Presumably they are rational actors with the same access to the information you are citing, what is their motivation? ?? Same motivation that anti-vaxxers, flat Earthers, 9/11 Truthers and Trump supporters have. Their desire to believe overcomes their rationality. (That or they are simply getting bad information.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeWeber 2,355 #71 June 18, 2022 35 minutes ago, billvon said: Their desire to believe overcomes their rationality. Probably I'm splitting hairs here but I think they have a need to believe. Seems to me it's about personal investiture, tribal alignment, drinking buddies, and neighborhood BBQ's. That sort of thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,371 #72 June 18, 2022 9 hours ago, billvon said: ?? Same motivation that anti-vaxxers, flat Earthers, 9/11 Truthers and Trump supporters have. Their desire to believe overcomes their rationality. (That or they are simply getting bad information.) I think it's more along the lines of 'they need the power right now'. I could be wrong, and certainly welcome correction if so, but a coal plant is fairly simple to build. Big but simple. I know I've seen natural gas plants get built in a few months (there's one a few miles from my house). Nuke plants take a LOOONG time to build. Solar & wind aren't all that hard, but the 'bang for the buck' (amount of power compared to the size of the installation and time to build it) is nowhere near as attractive for people who need more power as soon as possible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,477 #73 June 20, 2022 Coal, yesterday's kid: Looks like Texas is keeping the lights on with . . . renewables. Sorry Brent; no miserable people in Texas for you to enjoy. Despite Texas GOP's rhetoric, renewables are keeping the lights on amid state's sweltering summer 'It's 100% certain that climate change is contributing to the current heat wave,' said the director of Texas A&M's Texas Center for Climate Studies. By Sanford Nowlin on Thu, Jun 16, 2022 at 12:52 pmSEND A NEWS Texas' power grid is again under strain as the state deals with soaring summer temperatures. Texas' spiking electrical demand amid this summer's extreme heat has renewed concerns about the stability of the state's power grid. While Texas' Republican leadership continues to dog renewable energy sources as it tries to maintain its cozy relationship with the state's deep-pocketed oil and gas sector, experts say solar and wind are pretty much saving our asses right now. “Texas is, by rhetoric, anti-renewables. But frankly, renewables are bailing us out," University of Texas professor and energy wonk Michael Webber told CNN this week. Wind and solar supplied 27 gigawatts of electricity during Sunday's peak demand, Webber and other energy experts told the news network. That accounted for around 40% of the total energy required to keep the lights on. https://www.sacurrent.com/news/despite-texas-gops-rhetoric-renewables-are-keeping-the-lights-on-amid-states-sweltering-summer-29147649 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 390 #74 June 20, 2022 40%! Wow that is impressive! What is providing the other 60%? Meanwhile in Germany (A county with a much greater energy demand) German Vice Chancellor and Economy Minister Robert Habeck (Green Party): “That’s bitter, but it’s simply necessary in this situation to lower gas usage, To reduce gas consumption, less gas must be used to generate electricity. Coal-fired power plants will have to be used more instead,” the Economy Ministry said in a statement. No mention of wind and solar from a member of the Green Party! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 256 #75 June 20, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, brenthutch said: No mention of wind and solar from a member of the Green Party! It's painful watching how much you have to twist or misrepresent the facts to fit your narrative. Really not sure what you hope to achieve by it. For those intellectually less challenged individuals wondering what BS Brent is spouting this time, it's a very short term response to impending russian gas shortages. From the same article: "Germany, a long-time heavy user of Russian gas, began cutting down on imports after the latest invasion Ukraine. Its climate target to phase out coal by 2030 remains in place, as does its policy to shut down its three remaining nuclear power plants by 2023. Berlin also plans to expand its renewable energy generation - already one of the most ambitious countries - and improve gas storage and energy efficiency measures." Edited June 20, 2022 by Stumpy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites