'O, wad some pow'r the giftie gie us. . .

[Coreece 190]

 16 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

If in fact the country is under attack, i.e. "going to sh*t". The countries institutions of law and democracy subject to corrupting forces from within.

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

...Two valuable lessons:

If you don't have anything nice to say; keep your mouth closed.

If you're not willing to say it to their face; then don't say it at all. 

Those lessons become moot. It becomes the incumbent duty of every good citizen to come to the defense of their countries righteous ideals.Which is not to say that courteous debate, debate with respect. Should not be the first option.

But when debate is a sham exercise. When lies, obfuscation and obstruction the new norm.The dutiful and brave must stand, must act.

I guess I better keep my mouth shut. . .

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Coreece

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

23 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Respect is a two way street.

When the evangelists say that 'anyone who doesn't believe what WE do is going to hell, my 'respect' for them goes way down.

When they scream how much they love Jesus, and then turn around and do basically the opposite of EVERTHING he taught, the same thing happens.

When they try to hide their discrimination behind 'sincere religious beliefs', while at the same time behaving in ways that blatantly violate those same beliefs, to expect me to 'respect those beliefs' is rather silly.

When they try to claim that Biden is the anti-christ, when their hero, Trump seems to fit the description a LOT better, when they call him "Joe & the Ho, ignoring the fact that the former first lady was a porn model...

That 'respect' is gone.
Completely, totally, utterly gone.

Hi Joe,

PRICELESS!!!!!

Jerry Baumchen

[Coreece 190]

Hopeless

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

45 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

If in fact the country is under attack, i.e. "going to sh*t". The countries institutions of law and democracy subject to corrupting forces from within.

Those lessons become moot. It becomes the incumbent duty of every good citizen to come to the defense of their countries righteous ideals.Which is not to say that courteous debate, debate with respect. Should not be the first option.

But when debate is a sham exercise. When lies, obfuscation and obstruction the new norm.The dutiful and brave must stand, must act.

Hi Phil,

You must be referring to the presidential 'debates.'

Jerry Baumchen

[SkyDekker 1,122]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

He's not talking about geopolitics.  He's talking about how people treat each other within a community.

 

I am not talking geopolitics either. How did white people treat black people moving into their neighbourhood. Was that decency? Or was the decency lost before then? Or does he mean that decency was lost when homogenous communities were no longer homogenous?

 

When does he think this wide respect for other cultures was present?

[billvon 2,400]

2 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

I am not talking geopolitics either.

You said "I think there is a very long history of countries, including the US, not being decent."  Countries being decent (or not) is geopolitics.

Quote

How did white people treat black people moving into their neighbourhood.

OK now you are back to talking about treating people within communities.  Yes, the US has been super racist in the past.  Fortunately, we have been getting better.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

Just now, billvon said:

You said "I think there is a very long history of countries, including the US, not being decent."  Countries being decent (or not) is geopolitics.

Ah yes. I should have said people within countries. I phrased it the way I did to indicate I did not think that was an American thing alone. Thought it was pretty clear from the conversation that we weren't talking geopolitics.

1 minute ago, billvon said:

OK now you are back to talking about treating people within communities.  Yes, the US has been super racist in the past.  Fortunately, we have been getting better.

Not back, we never left. If we are getting better (which I agree with) that would mean we haven't lost decency, we are gaining it. Bigun's statement was that we have lost decency and that is what the current problem is.

 

[BIGUN 1,053]

6 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Bigun's statement was that we have lost decency and that is what the current problem is.

Sky, my point begins with tone. There was a time when we were more decent, civil, courteous, and all the other synonyms that go with decency. We all remember a time when you got to a four way stop and everyone would wave each other through instead of trying to blast through and flip each other off. The true beginning of the loss of decency came about with social media. When everybody started hollering at each other and nobody was talking. Right here on DZ.com. We talked. Not only did I enjoy the conversations, but learned things, learned about myself. 

I didn't feel as though I was in a constant verbal tennis match with the ball being hit harder to drive me away from middle, but softer to being me closer to that center net. This is my view of the world now. Tone & Decency. 

Not everyone on the other side is an extremist and yet we talk to each other that way. Nothing starts out with a point anymore. It starts out with if you're on the right, you must be a Nazi trump loving idiot. And the left, tree-hugging, gay loving, Marxists who believe in unicorns and fairy dust. 

Dare bring up God and YOU are the antichrist and your religion is responsible for ALL the world's problems. We had some right-wings that brought up Muslims as enemies and the left cried foul, but that same cry can't be heard when the discussion is about Christianity. 

Maybe we've grown apart over the years since we're no longer in proximity, but it seems we could do a better job of talking with each other instead of at each other. Decency - argued past or present. How about we start here and now and work towards the future.

Not all the world's ills were started by ALL on the right, or Christians, or Left, or Atheists', or Marxists, or Muslims, or Jews, or Black or White. There's always been a fringe to each stirring up the pot.    

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

30 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Sky, my point begins with tone. There was a time when we were more decent, civil, courteous, and all the other synonyms that go with decency. We all remember a time when you got to a four way stop and everyone would wave each other through instead of trying to blast through and flip each other off. The true beginning of the loss of decency came about with social media. When everybody started hollering at each other and nobody was talking. Right here on DZ.com. We talked. Not only did I enjoy the conversations, but learned things, learned about myself. 

I didn't feel as though I was in a constant verbal tennis match with the ball being hit harder to drive me away from middle, but softer to being me closer to that center net. This is my view of the world now. Tone & Decency. 

Not everyone on the other side is an extremist and yet we talk to each other that way. Nothing starts out with a point anymore. It starts out with if you're on the right, you must be a Nazi trump loving idiot. And the left, tree-hugging, gay loving, Marxists who believe in unicorns and fairy dust. 

Dare bring up God and YOU are the antichrist and your religion is responsible for ALL the world's problems. We had some right-wings that brought up Muslims as enemies and the left cried foul, but that same cry can't be heard when the discussion is about Christianity. 

Maybe we've grown apart over the years since we're no longer in proximity, but it seems we could do a better job of talking with each other instead of at each other. Decency - argued past or present. How about we start here and now and work towards the future.

Not all the world's ills were started by ALL on the right, or Christians, or Left, or Atheists', or Marxists, or Muslims, or Jews, or Black or White. There's always been a fringe to each stirring up the pot.    

Hi Keith,

Re:  There was a time when we were more decent, civil, courteous, and all the other synonyms that go with decency.

Could you zero in on this 'time?'

My first experience with real racism was in the Spring of 1960.  I was on a bus from San Antonio, TX ( Lackland AFB ) to Montgomery, AL ( Gunter AFB ).

The bus stopped somewhere in Mississippi and I walked into a small restaurant to get something to eat.  Right in the center was a white line painted on the floor, ran over the chest Coke machine, and over the counter.  I will never forget that.

THAT was a time, for me, that we were not more decent, civil, courteous, and all the other synonyms that go with decency.

It seems to me that when people talk about going back to 'the good ole days,' this is what they are talking about.

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  As for your other comment ( somewhere, I do not remember [ sorry ] ) about not speaking negatively; well, with the rise of Trump and his minions; you damn right I am going to speak negatively.  Just as I did about LBJ and his war.

 

[gowlerk 1,912]

10 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Keith,

Re:  There was a time when we were more decent, civil, courteous, and all the other synonyms that go with decency.

Could you zero in on this 'time?'

Hi Jerry,

            I guess Keith is confusing the level of comfort and self assurance that all was right in his world with the reality the many others faced. We all are in some ways I suppose. These damned modern communication methods we have make it very hard to not know about so much conflict. Maybe the Chinese have it right. Enforced harmony.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

4 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Bottom Line: One should treat race, creed, religion. gender, with respect. This country is going to shit for one reason and one reason only - we have lost our sense of decency towards others. We spend more time finding the minority of bad in a group, than we do the majority of good.   

Two valuable lessons:

If you don't have anything nice to say; keep your mouth closed.

If you're not willing to say it to their face; then don't say it at all. 

I hear you, brother, for sure. I do think the valuable lessons are in reverse order, however, which sort of negates the new second valuable lesson. At least I hope so.

Edited January 6, 2022 by JoeWeber

[wmw999 2,121]

I think crowding causes people to get more defensive of what they think is or should be theirs. Studies with rats seem to bear this out — corner people in some way, and they generally don’t cower, they often come out swinging, either intellectually or physically. 
Wendy P. 

[SkyDekker 1,122]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

Sky, my point begins with tone. There was a time when we were more decent, civil, courteous, and all the other synonyms that go with decency. We all remember a time when you got to a four way stop and everyone would wave each other through instead of trying to blast through and flip each other off. The true beginning of the loss of decency came about with social media. When everybody started hollering at each other and nobody was talking. Right here on DZ.com. We talked. Not only did I enjoy the conversations, but learned things, learned about myself. 

I didn't feel as though I was in a constant verbal tennis match with the ball being hit harder to drive me away from middle, but softer to being me closer to that center net. This is my view of the world now. Tone & Decency. 

Not everyone on the other side is an extremist and yet we talk to each other that way. Nothing starts out with a point anymore. It starts out with if you're on the right, you must be a Nazi trump loving idiot. And the left, tree-hugging, gay loving, Marxists who believe in unicorns and fairy dust. 

Dare bring up God and YOU are the antichrist and your religion is responsible for ALL the world's problems. We had some right-wings that brought up Muslims as enemies and the left cried foul, but that same cry can't be heard when the discussion is about Christianity. 

Maybe we've grown apart over the years since we're no longer in proximity, but it seems we could do a better job of talking with each other instead of at each other. Decency - argued past or present. How about we start here and now and work towards the future.

Not all the world's ills were started by ALL on the right, or Christians, or Left, or Atheists', or Marxists, or Muslims, or Jews, or Black or White. There's always been a fringe to each stirring up the pot.    

I certainly agree that the rise of social media, mass communication and the availability of "information" all play into this. It has led to an overall distrust of information, resulting in the wider availability of knowledge actually making people less smart. How else does one explain groups of people standing at the grassy knoll waiting for JFK Jr. to reveal himself to put Trump back into power?

It has also led to a lot more exposure to the ills of society that have always existed. It was much easier to hide from what was wrong and never having to address it. People would likely not have walked up to you and asked for your opinion on racism, or confronted you with their opinions on the faults of Christianity. Yet, obviously on the internet that is all pretty much fair game. The idea of "if you won't say it to somebody's face, don't say it at all" has left a lot unsaid in the past. Things we are now trying to reconcile in many cases.

Personally I am of the opinion that a lack of willingness to sacrifice for society's greater good is what ails the west. We seem to only want to make ourselves, or those very identical to us, better and richer. I do believe that this will result in the end of democracy. I do believe the US will very likely have an autocratic ruler within the next 2 decades.

To me the only way to change that path is if we find a way to care for those around us, care for the earth we live on and try and understand that a rising tide does lift all boats. But, it requires people to "give things up", maybe even more than somebody else might gain. It requires caring for those who are not like us. Maybe that is what you meant with decency, but I disagree that it is something that existed in the past.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

25 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

I think crowding causes people to get more defensive of what they think is or should be theirs. Studies with rats seem to bear this out — corner people in some way, and they generally don’t cower, they often come out swinging, either intellectually or physically. 
Wendy P. 

For many years I've said it's all about the number of rats on the rock. The next generations are in for rude awakenings, I'm thinking. All of the stuff we claim as our luxuries, like recycling bottles and hammering Brent, will be forgotten as the next generations look to navigate to a place of stability in an increasingly unstable and autocratic world. Humanity is the latest meteoric grade impact on the planet and, like actual meteor impacts, the time from event to extinction is a slow roll. Truly one of the most true statements ever made was "the end is nigh".

[billvon 2,400]

10 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

For many years I've said it's all about the number of rats on the rock.

Yep.  Which is why I contribute to several charities that focus on educating third world women.  Nothing drives birthrate down faster than educating (and empowering) women.

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

8 minutes ago, billvon said:

Yep.  Which is why I contribute to several charities that focus on educating third world women.  Nothing drives birthrate down faster than educating (and empowering) women.

Hi Bill,

Interesting; just this morning, I sat down & wrote my annual checks to those organizations that I support.  Three of them are:

Home | pro-choice oregon (prochoiceoregon.org)

NARAL Pro-Choice America (prochoiceamerica.org)

Birth Control, STD Testing & Abortion - Beaverton, OR (plannedparenthood.org)

Crowded rats?  Yup, IMO that is the problem.

Jerry Baumchen

[JoeWeber 2,299]

3 minutes ago, billvon said:

Yep.  Which is why I contribute to several charities that focus on educating third world women.  Nothing drives birthrate down faster than educating (and empowering) women.

So true and laudable, but it won't change the trajectory of things, I fear. It's not what I want but it is what it is and from my perch I'm seeing that it's all over but the crying. The world ahead will be anything but kinder and gentler. If I had kids I'd be preparing them for success in that world not the one we fumbled away.

[gowlerk 1,912]

59 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Humanity is the latest meteoric grade impact on the planet and, like actual meteor impacts, the time from event to extinction is a slow roll.

A meteor impact is a fairly quick acting disaster. The impact of the expansion of humanity seems more akin to that of a fungus, a cancer or dare I say a virus. I am not a doomsayer but it is pretty clear that our impact on other species is rapidly becoming even more intense.  I love our current lifestyle, or at least the one I get to experience here. But I can see that a lot of it is dependent on so many international connections and complicated technology that could be easily disrupted. 

[JoeWeber 2,299]

13 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

A meteor impact is a fairly quick acting disaster. The impact of the expansion of humanity seems more akin to that of a fungus, a cancer or dare I say a virus. I am not a doomsayer but it is pretty clear that our impact on other species is rapidly becoming even more intense.  I love our current lifestyle, or at least the one I get to experience here. But I can see that a lot of it is dependent on so many international connections and complicated technology that could be easily disrupted. 

That's the misunderstanding about Meteor impacts, even big ones. The full effects take time. Compared to how long Humans have dominated the landscape, a lot of time. I'm not suggesting we're a species on the cusp of extinction at all, well in the near term that is. But how we organize ourselves as competing societies is most certainly in a change mode. Frankly, I don't see how democracy can survive in nodes larger than 400 million.

[gowlerk 1,912]

3 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Frankly, I don't see how democracy can survive in nodes larger than 400 million.

Time to break up those large nations into more manageable sizes then. One for each tribe.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

1 minute ago, gowlerk said:

Time to break up those large nations into more manageable sizes then. One for each tribe.

It never goes that way. We're in aggregation mode now. China has a big head start. India is huge but a disaster. The US/EU aggregation isn't really a thing in context. Everyone else are fodder.

[gowlerk 1,912]

3 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

It never goes that way. We're in aggregation mode now. China has a big head start. India is huge but a disaster. The US/EU aggregation isn't really a thing in context. Everyone else are fodder.

No one wants the shithole countries. Russia wants Ukraine. China wants to be proud like America. The EU wants the UK back. And the KKK wants Kentucky and Northern GA to itself

[Coreece 190]

7 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

That's the misunderstanding about Meteor impacts, even big ones. The full effects take time.

Since we're on the subject, I was also under the impression that we would need 5-10 years notice to have a chance at deflecting a 'planet killer' slightly off course enough to miss.  Stuff like that could likely be done without much push-back from the public, if they even knew about it.  They already sent a rocket up about a month ago to test it all out. 

https://www.nationalworld.com/news/nasa-dart-mission-spacecraft-launched-onboard-spacex-rocket-how-will-plan-to-crash-into-asteroids-work-3468161

 

https://www.nasa.gov/planetarydefense/dart

 

[billvon 2,400]

22 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Since we're on the subject, I was also under the impression that we would need 5-10 years notice to have a chance at deflecting a 'planet killer' slightly off course enough to miss. 

The more time the better of course, but it all depends on how much impulse we can bring to bear.  That in turn depends on the size of the vehicle we can get to the object - so for things like that, the Starship launch system will be a good thing.  (It can get a 100 metric ton vehicle to Earth escape speed.)

[JoeWeber 2,299]

41 minutes ago, Coreece said:

Stuff like that could likely be done without much push-back from the public, if they even knew about it. 

Like the moon landing? NASA needed to spend 1/3 of their 10 year budget on Webb and that was only 11 Billion Dollars. For all the public was aware it might have as well been secret. Just imagine if we were secretly spending several billions a year on a destroyer rocket to send Slim Pickens into outer space to save the world, if necessary, and that was discovered by FOX News. Right. I have a better solution: hope it doesn't happen for at least 20 years.