airdvr 197 #2576 July 16, 2020 42 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said: Hi Robert, That is where it should go; you cannot eat a golf course. Jerry Baumchen But you can't get a bogey on a farm either. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 383 #2577 July 16, 2020 19 hours ago, billvon said: What are they going to power it with - unicorn farts? Moon fairies? Maybe JFK will just wave a magic wand and levitate a man to the moon! Stupid libs! Bill, you gotta love that I was able to wrap unicorn farts and rainbows (aka wind and solar) into a single emoji. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 383 #2578 July 16, 2020 (edited) 19 hours ago, billvon said: Edited July 16, 2020 by brenthutch Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 383 #2579 July 16, 2020 19 hours ago, billvon said: What are they going to power it with - unicorn farts? Moon fairies? Maybe JFK will just wave a magic wand and levitate a man to the moon! Stupid libs! Bill, you gotta love that I was able to wrap unicorn farts and rainbows (aka wind and solar) into a single emoji. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #2580 July 16, 2020 Is there an echo in here? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 383 #2582 July 16, 2020 20 minutes ago, kallend said: Is there an echo in here? I’m glad you’re online. How do we make cement and steel in the next thirty years without fossil fuels? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #2583 July 17, 2020 5 hours ago, airdvr said: But you can't get a bogey on a farm either. Oh - Sure you can. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #2584 July 17, 2020 13 hours ago, brenthutch said: I’m glad you’re online. How do we make cement and steel in the next thirty years without fossil fuels? Cement https://www.newscientist.com/article/2185217-the-future-with-lower-carbon-concrete/ Steel https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/cleaner-cheaper-way-to-make-steel-uses-electricity/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #2585 July 17, 2020 3 hours ago, DJL said: Cement https://www.newscientist.com/article/2185217-the-future-with-lower-carbon-concrete/ Steel https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/cleaner-cheaper-way-to-make-steel-uses-electricity/ Insulation is a big factor in the efficiency of that as well. Recycled material makes great insulation Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 383 #2586 July 17, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, DJL said: Cement https://www.newscientist.com/article/2185217-the-future-with-lower-carbon-concrete/ Steel https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/cleaner-cheaper-way-to-make-steel-uses-electricity/ Both of those use fossil fuel “It may be more cost-effective to put a concrete plant next to a source,” says Schuler. An obvious source would be an oil refinery. “ “However, Kavanagh pointed out that electrolysis is only as clean as the grid that feeds it, so if the energy comes from a coal-fired power plant, there may not be any carbon emissions savings.“ Edited July 17, 2020 by brenthutch Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #2587 July 17, 2020 5 hours ago, DJL said: Cement https://www.newscientist.com/article/2185217-the-future-with-lower-carbon-concrete/ Steel https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/cleaner-cheaper-way-to-make-steel-uses-electricity/ Also: https://grist.org/article/this-company-wants-to-make-steel-and-cement-with-solar-power-heres-how/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murps2000 86 #2588 July 18, 2020 You can heat steel with electricity. This is done in a thermal arc furnace. How the electricity is generated doesn't matter as long as enough current is available. The rub is that producing steel from iron requires more than heat. Carbon must still be added, as well as a few other elements whose quantities depend on the final product you are after. The industry standard for much of the carbon part of the mix still still seems to be coking coal added in during the process. Not sure how the industry would address that to become carbon neutral. Still, burning fossil fuel isn't necessary to heat it up, although it may presently be the cheapest way to do it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #2589 July 18, 2020 The carbon in steel (typically 0.02% to 0.4% depending on grade and purpose) is NOT in the form of greenhouse gas. It's chemically combined with the iron as Fe3C, or in solid solution, or, in alloy steels, in the form of carbides like Mo23C6. Just another red herring. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murps2000 86 #2590 July 18, 2020 10 hours ago, kallend said: The carbon in steel (typically 0.02% to 0.4% depending on grade and purpose) is NOT in the form of greenhouse gas. It's chemically combined with the iron as Fe3C, or in solid solution, or, in alloy steels, in the form of carbides like Mo23C6. Just another red herring. I didn't mean it as such, and I'm in agreement with you as far as the general topic is concerned. I merely meant to point out that coal was used a source of carbon. I knew I should have stayed out of this thread. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,341 #2591 July 18, 2020 18 minutes ago, murps2000 said: I didn't mean it as such, and I'm in agreement with you as far as the general topic is concerned. I merely meant to point out that coal was used a source of carbon. I knew I should have stayed out of this thread. Coal itself isn't necessarily 'bad'. However, the virtually unlimited mining and use of it has some bad side effects. It will never go completely away. It will always have some usefulness. We just need to cut down on it's use. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #2592 July 18, 2020 8 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said: Coal itself isn't necessarily 'bad'. However, the virtually unlimited mining and use of it has some bad side effects. It will never go completely away. It will always have some usefulness. We just need to cut down on it's use. That is true with virtually everything on the planet. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,625 #2593 July 18, 2020 3 hours ago, turtlespeed said: That is true with virtually everything on the planet. Nope. Using resources sustainably does not necessarily, or even in most cases, imply cutting down on use. It does, however, require thought and will, and rejection of denial. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #2594 July 18, 2020 Just now, kallend said: Nope. Using resources sustainably does not necessarily, or even in most cases, imply cutting down on use. It does, however, require thought and will, and rejection of denial. It's easier said to just be responsible about it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 383 #2595 July 27, 2020 15 years of climate change debate distilled into one five minute interview Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #2596 July 27, 2020 On 7/18/2020 at 6:29 AM, turtlespeed said: That is true with virtually everything on the planet. Once a PV panel is constructed, using it to generate energy has zero bad side effects. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #2597 July 27, 2020 35 minutes ago, billvon said: Once a PV panel is constructed, using it to generate energy has zero bad side effects. How does that disagree with with what I wrote? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 383 #2598 July 28, 2020 9 hours ago, billvon said: Once a PV panel is constructed, using it to generate energy has zero bad side effects. The bad sides are before and after that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #2599 July 28, 2020 10 hours ago, brenthutch said: The bad sides are before and after that. After? You mean disposal, or when you recycle it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,384 #2600 July 28, 2020 A success story of solar displacing fossil fuels and increasing productivity with no subsidies needed! ;-) https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-53450688 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites