Freefall University - Caveat Emptor

[vt1977 0]

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Ah right, must have something mixed up then as this BPA FAI application form mentions 25 freefall jumps for FAI A.

http://www.bpa.org.uk/...rt%20Application.doc

The link you quoted is the application for the International FAI Certificate which is different from the BPA FAI Certificate. (Confusing, I know. I don't know of anyone who actually has the international certificate).

The BPA FAI A certificate requires Cat 8 and CH1. That can, in theory, be achieved in 18 jumps.

hth!

Vicki

[Sockpuppet 0]

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Just to reiterate the soloution offered you during the course of several conversations on the topic.

Go to our London associated dropzone as we had originally agreed at the same time as we helped you prepare your application and have the CH1 documentation signed. As I had said we were happy to cover all your fuel costs for this trip . To make sure that you did not find the trip completeley pointless we did also offer to have a jump ticket in the manifest for you so that you would skydive at least once that day for free ( on us ). Sometimes Wayne people make mistakes and I made one... had you given me the opportunity to work on your behalf the way I knew would have been very smooth.. We would have worked in the background as we have done for numerous other clients who are now BPA A,B,C and D license holders.

Myself and the rest of the team wish you enjoyment with your skydives, as I said to you , your in air skills are well above average for the jumps. and yes, you once again have my apology for my mistake.


David Cowman
Client Care
FFU

NOw thats nice customer care.

Not wishing to get into the bum fight but people do make mistakes it happens. But at least seeing someone offering fuel + jump is a very nice thing to do when a lot of people could just say "screw you".

I think FFU just won another customer....after all they wont make the same mistake twice :D

------
Two of the three voices in my head agree with you. It might actually be unanimous but voice three only speaks Welsh.

[damion75 0]

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The FAI A license (through BPA), is a min of 25 jumps, CAT8 and CH1.

Chris

Actually it isn't. From the BPA Ops Manual (Sect 2):

2.1. FAI ‘A’ CERTIFICATE: Category 8 and at least ‘CH-Grade 1’.

There is not mention of jump numbers. But it is impossible to pass AFF (incl consols) in less than 18 jumps AFAIK.

Ah right, must have something mixed up then as this BPA FAI application form mentions 25 freefall jumps for FAI A.

http://www.bpa.org.uk/forms/docs/Form%20226%20-%20FAI%20International%20Cert%20Application.doc

Chris

Afraid you're right - you do have something mixed up.

There are two different FAI standards in force here. From slightly earlier in Sect 2 of the Ops Manual:

1.2. Parachutists are also Classified in several ways:

1.2.1. Fédération Aéronautique International (FAI) (British Standard) Certificate (Issued by the BPA on behalf of the Royal Aero Club of the United Kingdom), (see para.3 below).

1.2.2. Fédération Aéronautique International (FAI) International Parachutist Certificate of Proficiency. (see para 4 below).

I am talking about the first FAI British Standard (red) licence, which is the one in use at BPA licenced organisations. You are referencing the international certificate which, though valid, is of less interest to the CCI of whatever BPA dropzone you turn up at. As BPA skydivers we are licenced under the first system. There are a lot of differences between the two licences, including the requirement for only 500 jumps for a 'D' Licence in the international system.

Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss this further.

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[damion75 0]

Bugger - you beat me to it!

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[topper 0]

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Afraid you're right - you do have something mixed up.
.....
Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss this further.

At least that clears it up, bit confusing having USPA\BPA\International licenses !! Anyway, it's always good to learn something new in this sport.

Cheers
Chris

[RandomLemming 0]

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I think FFU just won another customer....after all they wont make the same mistake twice :D

You'd think so, but you'd be wrong. I trusted these people. Again, And got shafted. Again.

David offered me the option that I proposed in an earlier post - I courier everything back to them, they sign it properly and then courier it back. He even offered to pay for the courier, and in retrospect, I should have taken him up on that.

I've just had a call saying that after I shelled out for the courier, they won't be able to offer the solution that they proposed. So now, not only don't I have the CH1 in my possession any more, I'm further out of pocket and still screwed,

That's another 2 hours of my life that I won't get back either, but I'm learning good lessons about trust here.

[Erroll 49]

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I was given some deliciously strong Danish blue cheese for father's day this past Sunday.
Would you care for some?

[RandomLemming 0]

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I was given some deliciously strong Danish blue cheese for father's day this past Sunday.
Would you care for some?

So you think alerting others to
- False advertising
- Unauthorised signature on official documents
- Repeated failure to rectify a situation leading to greater incurred expenses
is a whine? Fair enough.

Hell, I would have stopped posting in this thread early this week, but FFU made public noises about rectifying the situation and I believed that needed following up on. I believe that their continued failures show that this is not just a case of 'people make mistakes'.

Maybe I really don't want to take part in this sport after all. I would have expected the community to be more interested in policing itself and the organisations that claim to represent it.

I'm not surprised the BPA struggle to find positive stories for the news if this behaviour is acceptable, and even condoned by the community.

Screw it - I'm out. Last post. Someone kill my account please. Then me if it's not too much trouble.

[piisfish 135]

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I would have expected the community to be more interested in policing itself and the organisations that claim to represent it.

please also note that DZ.com is an independant website and forum, it is NOT (yet?) an official international rulesetting skydiving organisation or regulating office.
most of the DZ.commers are in the USA, many people DO NOT post on DZ.com, or even read it.

Peace.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[BannanaGirl 0]

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It does seem that either the impression you got about CH1 is wrong, or they have told you wrong from the start. There is no requirement for accurate landings (this is part of CH2) but that may just be a DZ requirement.

CH1 requirements:
a) Flat turns on at least 3 descents.

b) Increased the range of the canopy using the toggles on at least 3 descents.

c) Displayed a reasonable level of canopy handling.

d) A CH1 written examination.

I did my CH1 only 13 jumps ago now and I had to do 3 jumps for it. First was extending the range using toggles, second was using flat turns and the third was a pre-declared landing within a 20m circumference of the intended landing point.

Canopy control is observed throughout and I often had write ups in my log book about my handling and stuff.

So yes there was a requirement for an accurate landing in the CH1. Either that or my CCI got it totally wrong.

And like Vt1977 said earlier Cat8 (A licence) can be achieved in 18 jumps as some of the text book student skydivers at my DZ (show offs!) have proven all too often.

As for Wayne,

Keep smiling dude and being the happy soul I know you are.
There are some complete cocks in every walk of life, skydiving being no exception.

Edit to add:- There are also some truly brilliant people in this sport and I have met just a few of them so far!

Please don't give up.

Get your backside down my neck of the woods this weekend and get your A licence sorted once and for all. Karma will do the rest of your work.

[jakee 1,257]

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So yes there was a requirement for an accurate landing in the CH1. Either that or my CCI got it totally wrong.

This is verbatim from the Ops manual.

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To obtain Grade 1 in Canopy Handling (CH1), the parachutist must be introduced to CH by a CCI/Advanced Instructor nominated Category System Basic Instructor (CSBI), a Category System Instructor (CSI), an Accelerated Free Fall Basic Instructor (AFFBI) or an Accelerated Free Fall Instructor (AFFI) of proven CH instructional ability, received a full safety brief and been instructed, both theoretically and practically on canopy handling relevant to CH1, and has successfully achieved the following:

a) Flat turns on at least 3 descents.

b) Increased the range of the canopy using the toggles on at least 3 descents.

c) Displayed a reasonable level of canopy handling.

d) A CH1 written examination.

Nothing about accurate landings. Those come in CH2 (and are easier than they ysed to be under IC1).

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[BannanaGirl 0]

Fair enough.

I think our CCI likes us to keep in our allocated landing area and not scoot off wherever the wind takes us...he is a bit of an accuracy freak and has got one of those tuffetts I believe.

I will be having words with him this weekend.

[bogwarrior 0]

Hello,

Well one assumes that its up to me to set the record straight then...

1200am

We were informed that potentially our proposed course of action was not the correct way of dealing with things. We decided to inform our client that we should explore alternative courses of action which included flying Andy and one other staff permanent staff member to the UK ( today or tommorrow ) with all the the documentation to have his membership of the BPA renewed and to sort this out within a reasonable time scale. We again offerred a day ( this time ) of skydiving to our client in the UK at a dropzone of his choice as an alternate means amongst others of solving the single mistake already discussed . We have been in touch constantly with our client throught the last number of days on this matter and regret now due to continued posting that we chose to be clear whilst awaiting / seeking clarification on what we had been told. We told our client that we were continuing to work on his behalf to resolve the matter promptly.

1215am

When working directly with a senior figure within the BPA head office , the clarification was that we were in fact doing things correctly that our client would be in posession of the BPA license.In the intervening moments even though we told our client that we were still working on the matter we recieved emails in various languages from our client. This after asking for some leeway to see what was the difficulty.

1220am client is informed of same. Client is informed of a positive result, that he may relax. That our interpretation of the manual was correct that form was being couriered at our expense direct to the Memberhship services office of the BPA and that he would have his license within days.

1800pm No update made original post of client not edited therefore we set the record straight. Since we were informed of the problem we worked towards a resoloution which has come about very quickly given the geographic distance involved.


We do regret this but ultimatley our client must respect the fact that we / I personally made a cock up which we worked very hard to resolve. We are not superhuman but worked hard to get this sorted.


We are a company comitted to the highest of training standards and it is for this reason that 98% ( if we look statistically at the last year ) of our clients are now happily in posession of their A license assuming they applied for one. We hope in a few days this record will be 100% . All of our team to include Andy Gregory ( the instructor i incorrectly had complete the documentation ) will be in a position to sign the form correctly within the processing time of the BPA. The instructors here should not have their name tarnished for what was my error.


On a more positive note , if you wish to see us in action we suggest you tune into the ITV1/2 series of Ozbournes: Adrenalin Junkies on the last Saturday in September. The anticipated audience is 17 million and We were selected for the training for the Finale of the series which is being shot right now with the Ozbornes and friends completing our AFF training and Canopy handling course ( CH1 and beyond ) . They will depart Spain to jump directly from the same flight that tranpsports them to the UK on friday into London Parachute School. We will post the diary when allowed do so and have invited Jack to post in the forum.. Pics should be on our website tonight.



We once again wish to apologize to our client and as discussed will work with him untill he has recieved the A license from the BPA, which is according toa senior full time figure in the Authority a matter of a few days.

Ultimatley the CH1 qualification is a basic one and we see no reason why a student should not be able to fly their canopy safely to land within a reasonable distance of a target therefore we work in this manner with them on their AFF and solo jumps. This being beyond that required by the ops manual.

Regards
David Cowman
FFU Client Care





http://www.freefalluniversity.co.uk
http://forum.freefallu.com

[jakee 1,257]

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I think our CCI likes us to keep in our allocated landing area and not scoot off wherever the wind takes us...he is a bit of an accuracy freak and has got one of those tuffetts I believe.

In that case it could just be that his personal interpretation of part c) (displays reasonable canopy handling) involves landing accurately. There's nothing to stop him being stricter than he needs to be.

And of course its not a bad thing that you had to do an accurate landing - it'll make CH2 easier.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[bagwarrior 0]

one assumes you sound like a broken record

Bagwarrior
Client Scare

[jumpwally 0]

Take control of your destiny,,,,explain what you want,explain what you expect and ask for input,, before you go forward. Its your life !,,,they work for you !! If you are not comfortable, stand down,,,,,, Pull your skirt down, your pussy is showing ! tHIS IS NOT GOLF..........................

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083