Freefall University - Caveat Emptor

[RandomLemming 0]

All,

After much agonising, I have decided to make this post.

Before I go any further, I would like to state that Freefall university has some amazing instructors and the people that make the place tick over are great. The dropzone is a fun place to hang out and the packers are awesome.

Unfortunately, the business that is Freefall University leaves a lot to be desired. I've had a lot of bad experiences dealing with them, culminating in my A license being put on hold because of procedural errors on David Cowman's part. The net result of this is that I wlil have to spend at least another 4 hours in the car, more money on student jumps and redo part of my A license.

I'll start from the beginning, with my first booking. This is partly my fault because I never thought to ask whether they are an IATA approved travel company. They offered to do all of my travel bookings as well as the AFF side of things. In two phone coversations I mentioned that I wanted the 4* hotel option as I was taking my wife with me and wanted somewhere comfortable for her. Unfortunately, when I actually made the booking I was dealing with a different person and this information had not been passed on. This resulted in several e-mails and phone calls between Mr Cowman and myself, with promises to get back to me by certain times and dates not being honoured. As this was my 30th birthday present, I kept following the issue up whenever a promised deadline passed which resulted in Mr Cowman sending a somewhat sarcastic e-mail stating
"When we have news for you we will be in touch promptly. Several emails/ voicmails daily are not needed to remind us to work on your behalf."
As already implied, I would not leave several messages if promised deadlines had been met or at least an update been given.

On my second trip to make use of the money that I still had on account there (weather killed the first trip, so I did my AFF with the amazing Ed aka bodypilot1), I wanted to stay in the DZ hotel. Since I was unable to find a contact for the hotel, I asked FFU to arrange this for me.

Long story short, the week before I was due to arrive there was a power failure that lasted two days at the DZ hotel. This was resolved by thursday, but somehow my booking was 'lost' because of communication issues between FFU and the hotel, and I was forced to stay in the hostal in Aranjuez. This meant 3 days of virtually no sleep, and paying an extra 20 euros a day for the privilege.

While I was there the second time, my aim was to complete the requirements for my A license. This involved doing my CH1 which I had been told by FFU was included in my AFF course.

After doing the observed jumps (standing 4 out of 5 and landing 4 out of 5 within 20m of the target), I completed the examination. When I asked my instructor to sign the exam, he checked it and said that he was not currently BPA rated, just USPA. I asked Mr Cowman if one of the other instructors could sign it, and he said this should be fine. Later, he approached my instructor and told them that he had checked the ops manual, and that it didn't need to be a BPA instructor that signed me off. My instructor duly signed me off and I came home to england.

On submission of my A license to the BPA, I received a letter back saying that they couldn't accept my application as the CH1 is not signed by a BPA instructor. As my observed jumps were also signed off by a USPA instructor, I will now have to repeat these at cost to myself, both financially and in time.

On my first trip there, problems with the plane killed about an hour of the only jumpable day we had. This surprised me as I had read that they had 2 planes on the weekends and I couldn't understand why they just couldn't drag the other plane out. It was only later that I found they only had 1 plane. But they're getting the second any day now.

On my second trip, 2 months later, I found that an entire day of jumping had been lost earlier in the week due to mechanical problems with the plane. It turned out that at the time, they still only had the one plane, despite advertising having 2 running on weekends.

It can get pretty busy on the weekends, with lengthy waits between loads. I guess that is the case everywhere, but with 2 planes being advertised and only 1 plane being there, I was a little upset when i got bumped from a load because a couple of tandem students wanted to go together.

The repeated communication failures, lack of responses, sarcastic e-mails and issues like the CH1 have turned a hobby that I was in love with into a chore. I don't get a lot of free time from work, and with the unpredictable English weather killing weeks at a time, this truly hurts.

The instructors at FFU are amazing. They put a lot of time and effort into the students and often perform heroic feats to get people down safely. But I won't be going back to Ocana.

[AFFI 0]

Shit happens...

I feel badly about horror stories for students but many of us have them from our student status days.

Issues will always be there when dealing with people, mother nature and the expectations of the individual.

Skydiving is way cool, it is worth putting up with issues when things dont go our way, at least for me it is...

[RandomLemming 0]

To be fair, one thing that helps with individual expectations is not lying about your infrastructure.

Claiming to have double the number of planes that you actually do isn't a nice thing to do to students.

Mother nature, I can accept - she's a bitch, but I don't have any control there.

[topper 0]

How can you apply for your A license when you only have 10 jumps ? You can't have even completed AFF and CH1 in 10 jumps !!

The FAI A license (through BPA), is a min of 25 jumps, CAT8 and CH1.

Chris

[RandomLemming 0]

My numbers here aren't acrurate. I have 23 jumps. I was told (admittedly by the same DZ that signed off my CH1 incorrectly) that I needed 18 jumps + my CH1 to apply for my A.

I've not bothered to update my jump count because I was planning on doing it when I got my A and had a license number to add. Now that won't happen.

[Orange1 0]

Just wanted to make an observation - our DZ has 2 planes (with a 3rd one generally available for use). There have been times when only one - or even none - has been available for jumping. Planes get mechanical faults sometimes and sometimes they take a while to fix. This is not the same as advertising something that isn't there, but just be aware that this kind of thing does happen. And being bumped for tandems is pretty common too.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[RandomLemming 0]

Like I said, I understand that shit happens. But when shit happens and is compounded because of untruths, then I get unhappy. That doesn't seem unreasonable.

[Sockpuppet 0]

Quote

The instructors at FFU are amazing. They put a lot of time and effort into the students and often perform heroic feats to get people down safely. But I won't be going back to Ocana.

Surely that would make them bad instructors? Isnt the best way to ensure training so that people don't need to preform heroic feats to get people down?

I plan on going to spain to do my AFF with the FFU. Mainly becuase its sunny.

------
Two of the three voices in my head agree with you. It might actually be unanimous but voice three only speaks Welsh.

[RandomLemming 0]

If you're just going to the FFU because it's sunny, they're not the only english run school in spain - there is also freefalladdicts.com

I'm not going to tell you not to train with the FFU, but what I will say is make VERY sure you get a BPA ops manual and double check everything they sign for you otherwise you could end up having spent a lot of money and still not being able to jump in the UK. I'd also check that they actually have their 'second plane' that the website talks about. Because that's been on there since late February and when i was last there on May 21, they still did not have it.

As for the instructors and the heroic feats statement - sometimes, no matter how good the instructor or how good the training, shit happens with a student.

[topper 0]

I trained with the FFU last year and they were perfect, and
always told me it was 25 + CH1.

There is also Skydive Spain in Seville, not sure if Empuriabrava is english run or not, but heard good reports.

[RandomLemming 0]

Quote

I'm not really doubting your credentials but this just sounds like yet ANOTHER bitch from the FFA about FFU, If you hadn't have posted that link then I would have believed you, but there is also Skydive Spain in Seville, not sure if Empuriabrava is english run or not, but heard good reports.

Feel free to check my posting history here. Also, I did my AFF with bodypilot1 in the US at Lodi which meant he saw me in the flesh :) So I definitely have nothing to do with either FFU or FFA.

As for the other stuff, I hold in my hand my rejection from the BPA because of the FFU's actions - that is what this gripe is about at the end of the day. I'm more than happy to scan and post that if it would help prove my credentials?

Basically, if I wanted to rant about FFU over FFA I would have done that in my original post, but I have no first hand experience with FFA, so I reserve judgement. I merely mentioned the other option that I know about when someone mentioned training at the FFU. I did not know about Empuriabrava, so I did not mention it.

FFU have done the following to me:
- Lied about their facilities (They had 1 plane and claimed to have 2)
- Instructed an instructor to sign off on a CH1 when he wasn't qualified to do so - this action will cost me at least 200 quid to rectify

I just feel that other students should at least be aware of what chosing to fly with FFU has cost me before they make a choice, and also that they have choices.

[bodypilot1 0]

Wayne

Sorry to hear of your situation.

Grab your women and move to the US. Nor Cal could use another skydiver, and there are plenty of brothels to play piano in......i think?


Be safe
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[RandomLemming 0]

Quote

Wayne

Sorry to hear of your situation.

Grab your women and move to the US. Nor Cal could use another skydiver, and there are plenty of brothels to play piano in......i think?

I'd be back at Lodi in a heartbeat if it wasn't for the difficulties in emigrating to the US. I mean, how do you convince them that they have a piano player shortage ? :D

[postivekarma 0]

Sorry it seems you had a bad time at the FFU ? It does sound unusual. Did you leave with much less jumps than you wanted to get in May ? What did the FFU say to you about this ?

[RandomLemming 0]

I left with a few jumps less than I was hoping to get, mainly because of weather. That's just one of those things really :)

The real gripe though is that they screwed up my CH1. They had an instructor sign it off even when he protested that he didn't think he was eligible to. David checked the ops manual and insisted he sign it off though, and the end result is that the BPA don't recognise my CH1. So I have to do it again, even though I followed all the rules and did everything I was told I have to.

[postivekarma 0]

I see, so if there was only one plane flying that was actually ok to get the jumps you wanted in a given day? Like Orange said sometimes dzs fly planes based on demand , or the demand they think they will have. Wait untill you see the waiting times at some dropzones in the UK



What did the FFU say to you..did you speak to them about it ?

[RandomLemming 0]

If there were two planes flying, I would have been able to get all of the jumps I wanted, but I'm not sure there would have been enough capacity to fill it on the Sunday.

I spoke to them about the mistake on the CH1, but they can't do anything to fix it. They can help arrange for me to retake it, but that's still not that useful to me because I'm still out of pocket and out of time.

[bogwarrior 0]

Quote

I spoke to them about the mistake on the CH1, but they can't do anything to fix it. They can help arrange for me to retake it, but that's still not that useful to me because I'm still out of pocket and out of time.

Hi Wayne,

Just to reiterate the soloution offered you during the course of several conversations on the topic.

Go to our London associated dropzone as we had originally agreed at the same time as we helped you prepare your application and have the CH1 documentation signed. As I had said we were happy to cover all your fuel costs for this trip . To make sure that you did not find the trip completeley pointless we did also offer to have a jump ticket in the manifest for you so that you would skydive at least once that day for free ( on us ). Sometimes Wayne people make mistakes and I made one... had you given me the opportunity to work on your behalf the way I knew would have been very smooth.. We would have worked in the background as we have done for numerous other clients who are now BPA A,B,C and D license holders.

Myself and the rest of the team wish you enjoyment with your skydives, as I said to you , your in air skills are well above average for the jumps. and yes, you once again have my apology for my mistake.


David Cowman
Client Care
FFU

[airtwardo 6]

Sometimes Wayne people make mistakes and I made one.

***

Make a mistake, admits it and wants to fix it....
Sounds like a good deal to me!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[RandomLemming 0]

Sounds like an Ok deal, except for the following:

1. Having spoken to the people at the DZ in question, they to see my CH skills (i.e. repeat CH1 or at least parts of it)

2. The DZ in question did not have capacity for me on my only day off for the next 4 weeks

3. The DZ in question is nowhere near my home, and means spending at least 4 hours in the car roundtrip

4. I have no guarantee that I will complete my CH1 requirements with them in one visit

5. By the time I can next visit the DZ in question, more than a month will have elapsed since I did my last consol / license dive. According to the instructor I dealt with at North London parachute centre, I only have a 1 month grace period from that last jump until I apply for my A or I have to repeat certain things (did not get clarification on what, because at the time that wasn't going to be an issue).

6. Only admits the mistake after much deliberation and argument

and finally

7. I already paid for and did it once.

There is a very simple solution to all of this. Courier my form to FFU at Ocana at my expense, have an actual legal signature put on it, and courier it back, next day delivery, at FFUs expense. This has not been offered at all.

[bogwarrior 0]

Hi Wayne,

Quote

I spoke to them about the mistake on the CH1, but they can't do anything to fix it.

Nobody said that this was the only soloution we could offer and . I was merely adding to the record that we did offer / this was the soloution we offered you before you told us you didnt want to hear from us again ( which was a bit of a surprise as you two days earlier booked an FS course with me ) . All of this late on friday evening.

Regrettably the one you were "pressing" for was not one we could legally do. ...In no uncertain terms.

My apology for my goof was a matter of private record and here i added it to the public record.

I think you are misinformed or misintrepreted a number of items/ regs. I will check with colleagues / BPA directly tommorrow ( today being Sunday and a day off ) .. Now would not as you imagine be a good time to make another mistake ..so as I said I will be in touch ( by 5pm tommorrow ). I am as I said certain we can resolve this quickly for you and without you being caused further distress.

David Cowman
Client Care
Freefall Uni.

[damion75 0]

Quote

The FAI A license (through BPA), is a min of 25 jumps, CAT8 and CH1.

Chris

Actually it isn't. From the BPA Ops Manual (Sect 2):

2.1. FAI ‘A’ CERTIFICATE: Category 8 and at least ‘CH-Grade 1’.

There is not mention of jump numbers. But it is impossible to pass AFF (incl consols) in less than 18 jumps AFAIK.

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[TrickyDicky 0]

It does seem that either the impression you got about CH1 is wrong, or they have told you wrong from the start. There is no requirement for accurate landings (this is part of CH2) but that may just be a DZ requirement.

CH1 requirements:
a) Flat turns on at least 3 descents.

b) Increased the range of the canopy using the toggles on at least 3 descents.

c) Displayed a reasonable level of canopy handling.

d) A CH1 written examination.

UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs.

[RandomLemming 0]

Quote

CH1 requirements:
a) Flat turns on at least 3 descents.

b) Increased the range of the canopy using the toggles on at least 3 descents.

c) Displayed a reasonable level of canopy handling.

d) A CH1 written examination.

I did all of the required air work, but I think the DZ wanted to be sure that I could land _safely_. The instructors are also focus a lot on the big picture, and spent a lot of time helping me refine my landing pattern - like I said, they have great instructors! This drove the requirement for accurate landings.

FFU are offering some options to fix this now that won't leave me out of pocket any more than courier fees, so I will update this thread when I know more.

[topper 0]

Quote

Quote

The FAI A license (through BPA), is a min of 25 jumps, CAT8 and CH1.

Chris

Actually it isn't. From the BPA Ops Manual (Sect 2):

2.1. FAI ‘A’ CERTIFICATE: Category 8 and at least ‘CH-Grade 1’.

There is not mention of jump numbers. But it is impossible to pass AFF (incl consols) in less than 18 jumps AFAIK.

Ah right, must have something mixed up then as this BPA FAI application form mentions 25 freefall jumps for FAI A.

http://www.bpa.org.uk/forms/docs/Form%20226%20-%20FAI%20International%20Cert%20Application.doc

Chris