jaybird18c 4 #551 April 5, 2018 Well... No need for humility sir. You are definitely in the elite class compared to us knuckle draggers in the religious peanut gallery. I did a little research and I stand in awe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,953 #552 April 5, 2018 I'm not sure how to take that. But let me assure you that I am aware that I possess a modicum of intelligence but that I am not overly impressed with myself over it. The reality is that I am a long distance truck driver and part time rigger with a grade eight education. I am not up on the emblems of the military, but I assume the beret and knife you use as an icon indicate your success as a US Army Green Beret. I stand in awe of that accomplishment. There are several posters here who I am in awe of for different reasons, but mostly for what they have done. As far as the conflict we are in regarding proof of god, it is far too easy for me. Your position is indefensible except as belief. But you refuse to defend it that way, you insist that you can use logic. I am assuming you come from a place where these beliefs are unquestioned. Now you are at a place where no one owes you anything and you will be challenged on things you thought were settled. Welcome to the wider world.Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,276 #553 April 5, 2018 jaybird18c Quote Furthermore, is there a trend? Is there any theocratic society in history that behaves better than our current secular western democracies? I know where you're going with that. Where I'm going with that is: saying something doesn't make it true. Quote Anyway, it's a subjective question. I'm sorry, I took you for someone who thought morality was defined by a higher power. Are you now saying there is no objective morality? And anyway, by extension, Zach's point is also a subjective point. Which is about right - when organised christianity and the other religions lose their political sway in our countries he'll be very sad, and I'll be quite happy. SubjectiveDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,276 #554 April 5, 2018 Quote I believe all of those things had an origin and, specifically with information, an intelligent source. Right, information needs a source but intelligence doesn't. It's so obvious!Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 4 #555 April 6, 2018 jakee Quote I believe all of those things had an origin and, specifically with information, an intelligent source. Right, information needs a source but intelligence doesn't. It's so obvious! https://youtu.be/eZfdYI4U1Vs Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,953 #556 April 6, 2018 jaybird18c *** Quote I believe all of those things had an origin and, specifically with information, an intelligent source. Right, information needs a source but intelligence doesn't. It's so obvious! https://youtu.be/eZfdYI4U1Vs Magic, another believer in magic. Still no proof of anything at all. When are you going to put up? Or shut up?Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 4 #557 April 6, 2018 QuoteMagic, another believer in magic. Still no proof of anything at all. When are you going to put up? Or shut up? So you subscribe to the theory that matter is eternal? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,953 #558 April 6, 2018 jaybird18cQuoteMagic, another believer in magic. Still no proof of anything at all. When are you going to put up? Or shut up? So you subscribe to the theory that matter is eternal? I know nothing of eternity. I don't pretend to. You are the one claiming knowledge of eternity. Again, put up or shut up. And quit trying to change the subject.Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 4 #559 April 6, 2018 gowlerk***QuoteMagic, another believer in magic. Still no proof of anything at all. When are you going to put up? Or shut up? So you subscribe to the theory that matter is eternal? I know nothing of eternity. I don't pretend to. You are the one claiming knowledge of eternity. Again, put up or shut up. And quit trying to change the subject. So YOU believe in magic! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,953 #560 April 6, 2018 QuoteSo YOU believe in magic! Do you believe in magic? Yeah. Believe in the magic in a young girl's soul Believe in the magic of rock n roll Believe in the magic that can set you free Oh, talkin' bout magic Do you believe like I believe? Do you believe in magic? Do you believe like I believe? Do you believe in magic? Songwriter: John SebastianAlways remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 4 #561 April 6, 2018 I wasn't looking to be serenaded but...ok. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeWeber 2,346 #562 April 6, 2018 jaybird18cI wasn't looking to be serenaded but...ok. I guess we can add stress to the frustration you are feeling. Remember this? It's your quote. "I think the point in all this is, despite it not being a calculable "proof," that it is a reasonable "wager." More reasonable than the atheistic alternative, in my opinion. I know you disagree." That, Jay, was tacit admission that you have no proofs. You are now down to games and insults about the intelligence and education of your adversaries. What is abundantly clear is that neither you or Ron have any practice arguing your case. All of your experience is explaining your case to willing listeners and it shows. Here is different. Here those who disagree with you don't give a rat's ass how awesome you feel about things. Here you need to man up and own what you say. Today it means giving facts and not feelings or conceding the field. If you have no facts just say so and let's all move on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 4 #563 April 6, 2018 QuoteI guess we can add stress to the frustration you are feeling. Dude. I am 0% frustrated. Are you? QuoteThat, Jay, was tacit admission that you have no proofs. What it meant was that you don't prove everything like you would a science experiment. QuoteWhat is abundantly clear is that neither you or Ron have any practice arguing your case. Et tu? QuoteHere is different. Here those who disagree with you don't give a rat's ass how awesome you feel about things. Here you need to man up and own what you say. Today it means giving facts and not feelings or conceding the field. If you have no facts just say so and let's all move on. Likewise. But I'm wondering if you really know what it means to man up. Because what you said sounded kind of disrespectful and pretentious. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,953 #564 April 6, 2018 Yup, time to move on. Jay has been given enough attention for the claims he will never back up. Time to just ignore them now. I think I've made every point I have to on a subject that can never be resolved. But I enjoyed my exchange with Ron in this thread, so it has not been a complete waste.Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeWeber 2,346 #565 April 6, 2018 jaybird18cQuoteI guess we can add stress to the frustration you are feeling. Dude. I am 0% frustrated. Are you? QuoteThat, Jay, was tacit admission that you have no proofs. What it meant was that you don't prove everything like you would a science experiment. QuoteWhat is abundantly clear is that neither you or Ron have any practice arguing your case. Et tu? QuoteHere is different. Here those who disagree with you don't give a rat's ass how awesome you feel about things. Here you need to man up and own what you say. Today it means giving facts and not feelings or conceding the field. If you have no facts just say so and let's all move on. Likewise. Et Tu? In this fantasy am I your Caeser? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,366 #566 April 6, 2018 jaybird18cQuoteThe fact that you have yet to produce one shred of said evidence is further indication of your inability to do so. - Matter - Energy - Information - Conscience Ok, in what way are those 4 words "evidence"? If you are saying that you don't understand how matter or energy can come into being without God, then that's simply the "God Of the Gaps" argument. To claim that God must have created anything we don't understand at this time is a really old belief. The list of stuff that was credited to God, yet later shown to have a rational and scientific explanation is very long. Evolution is probably one of the currently controversial ones. "Creationists" still don't accept it. The planet Venus is one that is mostly over. It's not Lucifer trying and failing to reach Heaven. ***QuoteThe entire Christian faith is based on guilt and fear. Guilt that normal, instinctive human behaviors are "sins" and that we will go to hell for them. Guilt that Jesus died for these sins. Interesting. Dr. Ravi Zacharias addressed this in his book “The End of Reason.” Secularization – The process by which religious ideas, institutions, and interpretations have lost their social significance. When this happens, a cultural inversion takes place. When secularization has had its full course, it will ultimately destroy a sense of shame within a culture. You take shame away from a highly educated person and you’ve got a monster in the making. “I want to raise a generation of young people devoid of a conscious, imperious, relentless, and cruel.” - Adolph Hitler The danger with this kind of world, “Not with intent but with logical outworking,” is that it will produce a generation of men and women without shame. The tragedy of that is a production of hell. I really have no clue what you are trying to say here. To imply that the only source for shame or guilt is religion is absurd. To imply that religion is the only 'moral compass' that society has is ridiculous. ***QuoteFear that we will go to hell unless we 'accept Jesus' as our personal savior. Jesus never needed anyone’s “acceptance.” You need his. You don’t go to hell for not accepting Jesus. You go to hell for unrepentant lying, steeling, committing adultery, blaspheming, murder, dishonoring your parents, coveting, etc. That's odd. Most of the "born again" crowd claim that it doesn't matter what kind of life you live, the only way to Heaven is to "accept Jesus". They even like to throw Bible quotes around to "prove" it. RonD1120*** Let me be clear that even though there is no evidence of God I in no way disrespect your belief in God. Faith is not something that requires evidence, that's why we call it faith. It is only your assertion that you can provide proof of God that I dispute. Do you accept my proof of faith? Some folks only have one overwhelming experience of God but that is enough to last a lifetime. Some have had several spiritual experiences. The key is to understand that a spiritual component of life exists and it can be studied. I believe most refuse to look at the spirit because it is intangible, yet it is real. We are a spirit, we have a soul and we live in a body. I focus my life more on my spirit and my relationship to God through the Christ than I do my body. My goal is to be so in tune with the Holy Spirit that when my body dies I don't even notice. Is that possible? What "Proof" do you claim? Your claims of 'being infused with the spirit of Christ" or claims of being personally visited by Jesus, or of regularly being give directions by "The Holy Spirit" are not proof in any way. They are your experiences, but unless you can show some sort of evidence that it actually happened, it's just 'testimony'. The idea that there is a 'spiritual component' to life is not uncommon. It has been studied. Living in a spiritual manner has tangible benefits. Meditation and prayer, self-examination, understanding one's faults and trying to improve all are things that allow one to become a better person. But there's still no evidence of a 'spirit' or 'soul', anything that lives on after our bodies die. That is little more than wishful thinking, trying to avoid the idea that death is the end. jaybird18c***Ah, so we finally get some movement on the lack of proof. If we can only get you to understand that the lack of proof comes from the complete lack of evidence, we might be able to have an honest discussion. No. There's plenty of evidence for God's existence. I tried to put it in legal terms as in a trial. Standard of proofs as in preponderance of the evidence vs. proof beyond a reasonable doubt. I put forth matter, energy, particularly information, and your conscience as general evidence of God. I might also add time. I believe all of those things had an origin and, specifically with information, an intelligent source. Again, I know you disagree. I'm ok with that. You just place your faith differently. One more time: What evidence? Since you now admit you put it in legal terms on purpose, what exactly could you enter into a court of law as evidence that God exists? Simply stating that you don't see how information could come into existence without an intelligent source is not proof. It's an assertion. While I won't pretend to think I know how it came to be, the act of admitting that I don't know does not presuppose that the only way it could happen is for God to do it. See the comment earlier in this post about the "God of the Gaps". It's one of the more common reasons people choose to believe in God. The need for a soul, the need to believe that death is not the end for themselves or their loved ones is another. Neither of these beliefs (or any of the others) actually require God to exist to believe them."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #567 April 6, 2018 jaybird18cWhat it meant was that you don't prove everything like you would a science experiment. Yes, you do.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeWeber 2,346 #568 April 6, 2018 gowlerkYup, time to move on. Jay has been given enough attention for the claims he will never back up. Time to just ignore them now. I think I've made every point I have to on a subject that can never be resolved. But I enjoyed my exchange with Ron in this thread, so it has not been a complete waste. Agreed. We've given Jay way more attention than he deserves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,470 #569 April 6, 2018 jaybird18chttps://youtu.be/eZfdYI4U1Vs Ah, so you are going with the classic "argument from ignorance" - "We don't know X, therefore God did it!" Unfortunately, it's been used (and rejected) so many times now that it really doesn't work any more. To wit: "We don't know how lightning is created, so it must be Zeus throwing his spear." "We don't know how the Earth is suspended in space, so it must be turtles all the way down." "We don't know how the Earth was created, so God must have made it out of water." "We don't know how gravity works, so the Earth must be flat." "We don't know how rockets work, so sending a rocket to the moon must be impossible." "We don't know how evolution or heredity works, so God must do it." After a few centuries of that sort of argument it starts to lose its persuasiveness. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 256 #570 April 6, 2018 Come on bill. The banana proves the existence of God. https://youtu.be/2z-OLG0KyR4 (My favorite response ever to this video was the guy who said "ok explain the lobster asshole!")Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #571 April 6, 2018 StumpyCome on bill. The banana proves the existence of God. (My favorite response ever to this video was the guy who said "ok explain the lobster asshole!") Explain the lobster? Explain the prostate!Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 58 #572 April 6, 2018 gowlerk Yup, time to move on. Jay has been given enough attention for the claims he will never back up. Time to just ignore them now. I think I've made every point I have to on a subject that can never be resolved. But I enjoyed my exchange with Ron in this thread, so it has not been a complete waste. Thank you.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #573 April 6, 2018 StumpyCome on bill. The banana proves the existence of God. https://youtu.be/2z-OLG0KyR4 (My favorite response ever to this video was the guy who said "ok explain the lobster asshole!") Oh man, never knew that existed. And there's Cameron just nodding along with it. That's it, I believe in God now, the banana got me!"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,276 #574 April 6, 2018 jaybird18c *** Quote I believe all of those things had an origin and, specifically with information, an intelligent source. Right, information needs a source but intelligence doesn't. It's so obvious! https://youtu.be/eZfdYI4U1Vs Use your words.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jaybird18c 4 #575 April 6, 2018 David Berlinski https://youtu.be/Z6ElA0--JNg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
