Can an atheist get into Heaven

[tonyhays 86]

Quote

...Then add a few thousand years of oral tradition, and the human tendency to embellish stories, and you end up with Noah's Ark

For sure...but the point was that the bible is clearly not "true", nor the "inerrant word of god"...something a few people in the thread are clinging too.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[jaybird18c 4]

jakee

***

Quote

"...he predestined us..."
There you go. The bible disagrees with you.

Not at all. He predestined to save some.

Ok... I'll dumb it down even further for you... the operative part is "he predestined".

This is in direct opposition to your statements that God has foreknowledge but does not foreordain. Foreordination is predestination.

Quote

The cool thing is, even you have the opportunity to repent and believe.

Well, I do if god made me with a nature that would lead to that. But if god decided I was not to be saved, he'd have made me with that nature instead. So if I've got the nature god decided he wanted me to have, I'm following the path god decided he wanted me to follow, and I'll either be saved or not depending on what god wanted my destiny to be.

According to what you're saying, I don't have the opportunity to change that, I'm just floating along the path that has already been set.

Quote

But the point is, with regard to predestination

The point is you are trying to tell us that our actions are not predestined by god, and you've just posted a bible quote that says they are.

http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/index.html?body=/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ch_III.html

[rifleman 61]

billvon

I think it is very likely that the Noah's Ark myth started from a story of someone who _experienced_ something like that - and then extrapolated to the whole world being flooded.

One such possibility is the flooding of the Black Sea. As sea levels rose around 5600 BC, the Mediterranean eventually flooded over a rocky pass (now called the Bosphorus Strait.) The sea began to flood a lake today known as the Black Sea. Water levels in the lake rose swiftly by 100-300 feet as the Mediterranean eroded away the rock by the strait. This meant that if someone were standing by the shore of that lake, and started treading water as the level of the lake rose, he could eventually find himself dozens of miles from shore as the waters rose on the flat land around the lake. Combine that with a big rainstorm and it would be easy to see how a prehistoric farmer, saving his family and some of his livestock on a raft, would think that the entire world had been flooded by a big storm.

There are many places on the globe where scenes like the above could have played out as sea levels rose between 7000 and 20,000 years ago. Then add a few thousand years of oral tradition, and the human tendency to embellish stories, and you end up with Noah's Ark.

You might find this BBC documentary interesting:
https://vimeo.com/106758421

Atheism is a Non-Prophet Organisation

[billvon 2,438]

>For sure...but the point was that the bible is clearly not "true", nor the "inerrant word of god"...

Right, but that's clear of the Bible right out of the gate - it contradicts itself, so it can't be inerrant.

[jakee 1,262]

Quote

http://www.reformed.org/...h_proofs/ch_III.html

Do you have anything intelligent to contribute in your own words?

So far in this thread at least half your sources have contradicted your own statements, so I really can't be bothered to wade through someone else's woo woo bullshit only to find out you don't even agree with what it says.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,438]

jaybird18c

***
The point is you are trying to tell us that our actions are not predestined by god, and you've just posted a bible quote that says they are.

http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/index.html?body=/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ch_III.html

From that piece:

"God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass"

So looks like Jakee is right. Our actions are preordained by God and you are not free to change them.

[wolfriverjoe 1,354]

jakee

Quote

http://www.reformed.org/...h_proofs/ch_III.html

Do you have anything intelligent to contribute in your own words?

So far in this thread at least half your sources have contradicted your own statements, so I really can't be bothered to wade through someone else's woo woo bullshit only to find out you don't even agree with what it says.

At least he hasn't linked "Answers In Genesis" yet.

I'm sorta surprised at that, to be honest.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jakee 1,262]

billvon

From that piece:

"God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass"

So looks like Jakee is right. Our actions are preordained by God and you are not free to change them.

Thanks Bill. I had zero motivation to go and find that among the nonsense

See Jay - your source says that I'm right. At this point, don't you think you should be taking a long look at how well you understand your own beliefs about the order of the universe?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[gowlerk 1,933]

Quote

http://www.reformed.org/...h_proofs/ch_III.html

For the life of me, I can see no difference whatsoever between the evil of theology and the evil of legal statute.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[JoeWeber 2,331]

billvon

******
The point is you are trying to tell us that our actions are not predestined by god, and you've just posted a bible quote that says they are.

http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/index.html?body=/documents/wcf_with_proofs/ch_III.html

From that piece:

"God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass"

So looks like Jakee is right. Our actions are preordained by God and you are not free to change them.

God bless Bill who has the patience of Job and can read that drivel, and then explain it to we mere mortals, so that we too can see the light. And who can yet claim the Lord does not work in mysterious ways?

[JoeWeber 2,331]

tonyhays

Quote

#Exodus is on hold pending the elimination of the field of Archeology

In addition to the events of Exodus being dismissed by Jewish archeologists, let's examine Noah's Ark, arguably one of the most influential stories in the bible. I won't delve into the physical impossibility of fitting that many animals into such a small space, nor the required amout of food for such a lengthy journey. Nor will I question how did all the fresh water fish survive, where did all the water go once the water receded, or did water not refract light prior to the flood. After all, the theist will simply shrug their shoulders and respond with some garbage about miracles and God's power.

There are at least four civilizations that existed prior, during, and after the events of the alleged Flood. The Chinese neolithic dynasty, the multiple Egyptian dynasties, Mesopotamians, & the Sumerians. All have a continuous line of recorded history with zero gap to indicate being wiped out and starting from scratch.

Then there's "Old Tjikko", a 9500 year old tree in Sweden.

And also this little nugget, a study on the results of a population bottleneck some 12,000 years ago. "This event caused an extreme reduction of the cheetah’s genetic diversity, known as a population bottleneck, resulting in the physical homogeneity of today’s cheetahs. Poor sperm quality, focal palatine erosion, susceptibility to the same infectious diseases, and kinked tails characteristic of the majority of the world’s cheetahs are all ramifications of the low genetic diversity within the global cheetah population.".......now if the flood had occurred, this would be apparent in all mammals, not just the cheetah.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC46261/

Two massive stories of the bible easily debunked, why not go for the trifecta? How 'bout the story of Adam and Eve? According to biblical scholars the events happened sometime around 4000 bc, ~6000 years ago. Let's see what the science has to say about it...

"Genetic variation at most loci examined in human populations indicates that the (effective) population size has been approximately 10(4) (i.e., 10,000) for the past 1 Myr and that individuals have been genetically united rather tightly. Also suggested is that the population size has never dropped to a few individuals, even in a single generation. These impose important requirements for the hypotheses for the origin of modern humans: a relatively large population size and frequent migration if populations were geographically subdivided. Any hypothesis that assumes a small number of founding individuals throughout the late Pleistocene can be rejected."

Listed below is the paper that it's from. There are two more that confirm it, but I could have listed more. So genetics has conclusively stated that there hasn't been a population bottleneck of less than 10,000 breeding pairs in the last half million years......that is in direct conflict with biblical chronology...both Adam and Eve(one pair) and Noah's ark(4 pair)

Once Adam and Eve are relegated to mythology the purpose of Jesus falls apart. Four of the biggest stories in the bible disproven by science. Those who continue to claim the bible is "true" or the "inerrant word of God" should pick up another book(s).

https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/10/1/2/1030040
http://www.genetics.org/content/genetics/147/4/1977.full.pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11158380

Tony,

That's some great stuff. The genetic diversity of Cheetahs bottleneck was unknown to me. Thanks. I'll look into that, for sure.

Strangely species distribution, seen as a confirmation of evolution, gets little play. It's always the fossil record, which while being irrefutable and without exception, is probably less impressive as a proof.

[gowlerk 1,933]

Quote

Strangely species distribution, seen as a confirmation of evolution, gets little play. It's always the fossil record, which while being irrefutable and without exception, is probably less impressive as a proof.

There is so little reason, given the knowledge we have, to believe in the story of Genesis or Noah, that enumerating the evidence is pointless. It is sufficient to merely say that only faith demonstrated by suspension of disbelief could lead anyone to accept these stories as literal truths.

But genetic theory does teach us that any mammal species numbering less than a few dozen is doomed. That has been well known for quite some time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_viable_population

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[JoeWeber 2,331]

gowlerk

Quote

Strangely species distribution, seen as a confirmation of evolution, gets little play. It's always the fossil record, which while being irrefutable and without exception, is probably less impressive as a proof.

There is so little reason, given the knowledge we have, to believe in the story of Genesis or Noah, that enumerating the evidence is pointless. It is sufficient to merely say that only faith demonstrated by suspension of disbelief could lead anyone to accept these stories as literal truths.

But genetic theory does teach us that any mammal species numbering less than a few dozen is doomed. That has been well known for quite some time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_viable_population

This is interesting. The study suggests that, "damage to particular areas of the prefrontal cortex indirectly promotes religious fundamentalism by diminishing cognitive flexibility and openness—a psychology term that describes a personality trait which involves dimensions like curiosity, creativity, and open-mindedness."


Neuropsychologia. 2017 Jun;100:18-25. doi: 10.1016/j.neuropsychologia.2017.04.009. Epub 2017 Apr 6.
Biological and cognitive underpinnings of religious fundamentalism.
Zhong W1, Cristofori I1, Bulbulia J2, Krueger F3, Grafman J4.
Author information
Abstract
Beliefs profoundly affect people's lives, but their cognitive and neural pathways are poorly understood. Although previous research has identified the ventromedial prefrontal cortex (vmPFC) as critical to representing religious beliefs, the means by which vmPFC enables religious belief is uncertain. We hypothesized that the vmPFC represents diverse religious beliefs and that a vmPFC lesion would be associated with religious fundamentalism, or the narrowing of religious beliefs. To test this prediction, we assessed religious adherence with a widely-used religious fundamentalism scale in a large sample of 119 patients with penetrating traumatic brain injury (pTBI). If the vmPFC is crucial to modulating diverse personal religious beliefs, we predicted that pTBI patients with lesions to the vmPFC would exhibit greater fundamentalism, and that this would be modulated by cognitive flexibility and trait openness. Instead, we found that participants with dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (dlPFC) lesions have fundamentalist beliefs similar to patients with vmPFC lesions and that the effect of a dlPFC lesion on fundamentalism was significantly mediated by decreased cognitive flexibility and openness. These findings indicate that cognitive flexibility and openness are necessary for flexible and adaptive religious commitment, and that such diversity of religious thought is dependent on dlPFC functionality.

[RonD1120 58]

JoeWeber

***

Quote

Strangely species distribution, seen as a confirmation of evolution, gets little play. It's always the fossil record, which while being irrefutable and without exception, is probably less impressive as a proof.

There is so little reason, given the knowledge we have, to believe in the story of Genesis or Noah, that enumerating the evidence is pointless. It is sufficient to merely say that only faith demonstrated by suspension of disbelief could lead anyone to accept these stories as literal truths.

But genetic theory does teach us that any mammal species numbering less than a few dozen is doomed. That has been well known for quite some time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_viable_population

This is interesting. The study suggests that, "damage to particular areas of the prefrontal cortex indirectly promotes religious fundamentalism by diminishing cognitive flexibility and openness—a psychology term that describes a personality trait which involves dimensions like curiosity, creativity, and open-mindedness."


Neuropsychologia. 2017 Jun;100:18-25. doi: 10.1016/j.neuropsychologia.2017.04.009. Epub 2017 Apr 6.
Biological and cognitive underpinnings of religious fundamentalism.
Zhong W1, Cristofori I1, Bulbulia J2, Krueger F3, Grafman J4.
Author information
Abstract
Beliefs profoundly affect people's lives, but their cognitive and neural pathways are poorly understood. Although previous research has identified the ventromedial prefrontal cortex (vmPFC) as critical to representing religious beliefs, the means by which vmPFC enables religious belief is uncertain. We hypothesized that the vmPFC represents diverse religious beliefs and that a vmPFC lesion would be associated with religious fundamentalism, or the narrowing of religious beliefs. To test this prediction, we assessed religious adherence with a widely-used religious fundamentalism scale in a large sample of 119 patients with penetrating traumatic brain injury (pTBI). If the vmPFC is crucial to modulating diverse personal religious beliefs, we predicted that pTBI patients with lesions to the vmPFC would exhibit greater fundamentalism, and that this would be modulated by cognitive flexibility and trait openness. Instead, we found that participants with dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (dlPFC) lesions have fundamentalist beliefs similar to patients with vmPFC lesions and that the effect of a dlPFC lesion on fundamentalism was significantly mediated by decreased cognitive flexibility and openness. These findings indicate that cognitive flexibility and openness are necessary for flexible and adaptive religious commitment, and that such diversity of religious thought is dependent on dlPFC functionality.

Your best thinking got you and the others to this point. And yet, something is just not right. You come here to debate, castigate, shame and ridicule but satisfaction cannot be found. Agreement among each other, yes. Still peace of mind eludes you.

There is that one thing in your life or your past that holds you guilty. You know it is there and you can't find complete relief. You are held captive.

Jesus came to set the captives free.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jakee 1,262]

RonD1120

Your best thinking got you and the others to this point. And yet, something is just not right. You come here to debate, castigate, shame and ridicule but satisfaction cannot be found. Agreement among each other, yes. Still peace of mind eludes you.

If you look through this thread I think you'll see it's Jay who castigates and ridicules (just as you do on many occasions).

Can't you see Jay's frustration every time he's asked about elements of his teaching that don't quite square up? Can't you see the peace of mind that eludes him? Yep, something isn't right...

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[RonD1120 58]

jakee

***Your best thinking got you and the others to this point. And yet, something is just not right. You come here to debate, castigate, shame and ridicule but satisfaction cannot be found. Agreement among each other, yes. Still peace of mind eludes you.

If you look through this thread I think you'll see it's Jay who castigates and ridicules (just as you do on many occasions).

Can't you see Jay's frustration every time he's asked about elements of his teaching that don't quite square up? Can't you see the peace of mind that eludes him? Yep, something isn't right...

On the contrary, I see confidence standing on the foundation of Christ and the theological study of scriptural writings.

I am just a counselor. He is a true scholar.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[wolfriverjoe 1,354]

RonD1120

Your best thinking got you and the others to this point. And yet, something is just not right. You come here to debate, castigate, shame and ridicule but satisfaction cannot be found. Agreement among each other, yes. Still peace of mind eludes you.

There is that one thing in your life or your past that holds you guilty. You know it is there and you can't find complete relief. You are held captive.

Jesus came to set the captives free.

That's funny Ron.

While the process was tumultuous, the peace of mind that I've had since realizing that the whole "God" thing was a complete fabrication has been much more than it ever was before.

Admittedly, losing the whole "I'll be ok because God is watching over me" took a bit of getting used to, but understanding that life is just random chance and consequences for our choices makes acceptance of everything easier.

The freedom from bondage to an ancient and false set of behaviors was wonderful.
That doesn't mean I have no morals or conscience (as many religious types like to pretend), but not having a punishing and vindictive God threatening my every action is nice.

One of us travels across the country, seeing all sorts of things and meeting all sorts of different people.
One of us became so afraid of the 'real world' that he chose to run away and hide in the mountains, fearful that anyone with dark skin is either a gang member or terrorist. Eagerly awaiting the day that the "Shit hits the fan" so that he can shoot and kill anyone who tries to enter his compound.

Who is more 'free'?

jakee

If you look through this thread I think you'll see it's Jay who castigates and ridicules (just as you do on many occasions).

Can't you see Jay's frustration every time he's asked about elements of his teaching that don't quite square up? Can't you see the peace of mind that eludes him? Yep, something isn't right...

Yup. He demands answers from others, but it's been 170+ posts since he claimed a 'preponderance of evidence" and has yet to produce a shred of it.
Just links trying to show that the Bible is 'true' (and often contradictory links at that).

tonyhays

In addition to the events of Exodus being dismissed by Jewish archeologists, let's examine Noah's Ark, arguably one of the most influential stories in the bible. I won't delve into the physical impossibility of fitting that many animals into such a small space, nor the required amout of food for such a lengthy journey.

Well, if you don't want to go into the physical limitations of the actual Ark, how about the simple fact that there's no possible way he could have acquired all the animals?

Orangutans, Kangaroos, Jaguars, Anacondas, Snow Leopards, Pandas, even the Tibetan Yak.

NONE of those are anywhere near the Middle East. None were known to the people of that region at that time.

So how did those animals survive the flood?

Did God tell an equivalent "Noah" in every region of the world to "build a really, really big boat"?

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jcd11235 0]

RonD1120

He is a true scholar.

His posts on the subject have been anything but scholarly. They indicate a superficial, at best, understanding of the topic at hand.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[DJL 232]

jaybird18c

Quote

"...he predestined us..."
There you go. The bible disagrees with you.

Not at all. He predestined to save some. It doesn't apply to all.
The cool thing is, even you have the opportunity to repent and believe. But the point is, with regard to predestination, that no one would have unless God acted on our behalf.

Does God also need to repent to his God about all the atrocities he's inflicted on humans?

Edit: You don't need to answer that question. Really, if you're happy with your beliefs then go ahead believing. It's nothing off my shoulder until you attempt to impose or act against others negatively. This is the primary reason people are vocal against religion, that there's a voting block who wish to influence their country's laws by imposing religious law whether it's the Torah, Koran or the Bible, we don't want that bull.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[wolfriverjoe 1,354]

DJL

***

Quote

"...he predestined us..."
There you go. The bible disagrees with you.

Not at all. He predestined to save some. It doesn't apply to all.
The cool thing is, even you have the opportunity to repent and believe. But the point is, with regard to predestination, that no one would have unless God acted on our behalf.

Does God also need to repent to his God about all the atrocities he's inflicted on humans?

No. He's God.

Everything he does is righteous and perfectly good.

We just don't understand 'his works to perform' when we think his actions are bad or unjust.

We really need a sarcasm font.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[DJL 232]

The intelligent design crowd likes to use the explainable complexity of things like our DNA or the color spectrum to prove that things don't randomly fall into place. I like to use this argument to validate that Zeus is actually who we should pray to as the God of Gods because the logic holds that if we're created then therefore everything unexplainable, including God himself, can only be explained through divine creation. So, see, there much be a God overseeing God, Zeus. Of course under Zeus is a giant turtle and underneath that turtle another turtle, and of course turtles all the way down.

"See the TURTLE of Enormous Girth"
"On his shell he holds the Earth."
"His thought is slow, but always kind."
"He holds us all within his mind."
"On his back all vows are made;"
"He sees the truth but mayn't aid."
"He loves the land and loves the sea,"
"And even loves a child like me."

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[jaybird18c 4]

jakee

If you look through this thread I think you'll see it's Jay who castigates and ridicules (just as you do on many occasions).

Tell you what. I do get frustrated from time to time. I appologize. It's not my intention to castigate and ridicule. Believe what you want.

[JoeWeber 2,331]

RonD1120

******

Quote

Strangely species distribution, seen as a confirmation of evolution, gets little play. It's always the fossil record, which while being irrefutable and without exception, is probably less impressive as a proof.

There is so little reason, given the knowledge we have, to believe in the story of Genesis or Noah, that enumerating the evidence is pointless. It is sufficient to merely say that only faith demonstrated by suspension of disbelief could lead anyone to accept these stories as literal truths.

But genetic theory does teach us that any mammal species numbering less than a few dozen is doomed. That has been well known for quite some time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_viable_population

This is interesting. The study suggests that, "damage to particular areas of the prefrontal cortex indirectly promotes religious fundamentalism by diminishing cognitive flexibility and openness—a psychology term that describes a personality trait which involves dimensions like curiosity, creativity, and open-mindedness."


Neuropsychologia. 2017 Jun;100:18-25. doi: 10.1016/j.neuropsychologia.2017.04.009. Epub 2017 Apr 6.
Biological and cognitive underpinnings of religious fundamentalism.
Zhong W1, Cristofori I1, Bulbulia J2, Krueger F3, Grafman J4.
Author information
Abstract
Beliefs profoundly affect people's lives, but their cognitive and neural pathways are poorly understood. Although previous research has identified the ventromedial prefrontal cortex (vmPFC) as critical to representing religious beliefs, the means by which vmPFC enables religious belief is uncertain. We hypothesized that the vmPFC represents diverse religious beliefs and that a vmPFC lesion would be associated with religious fundamentalism, or the narrowing of religious beliefs. To test this prediction, we assessed religious adherence with a widely-used religious fundamentalism scale in a large sample of 119 patients with penetrating traumatic brain injury (pTBI). If the vmPFC is crucial to modulating diverse personal religious beliefs, we predicted that pTBI patients with lesions to the vmPFC would exhibit greater fundamentalism, and that this would be modulated by cognitive flexibility and trait openness. Instead, we found that participants with dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (dlPFC) lesions have fundamentalist beliefs similar to patients with vmPFC lesions and that the effect of a dlPFC lesion on fundamentalism was significantly mediated by decreased cognitive flexibility and openness. These findings indicate that cognitive flexibility and openness are necessary for flexible and adaptive religious commitment, and that such diversity of religious thought is dependent on dlPFC functionality.

Your best thinking got you and the others to this point. And yet, something is just not right. You come here to debate, castigate, shame and ridicule but satisfaction cannot be found. Agreement among each other, yes. Still peace of mind eludes you.

There is that one thing in your life or your past that holds you guilty. You know it is there and you can't find complete relief. You are held captive.

Jesus came to set the captives free.


The problem here, and it is your problem not mine, is that you guy's are
accustomed to people pussy footing around when you make outrageous claims or avoid answering questions because the topic is religion. Your trick is to play the polite society card so as to keep the conversation, your side of it in particular, sounding reasonable. The problem is that what you and Jay are saying is anything but reasonable and some of us are flat out of polite society cards.

Consider only what wolfriverjoe just observed: he's out in the world and you are fearfully holed up in the woods. Who is likely to have a more realistic world view?

Jay get's damn touchy as a way of getting people to go away. He's called me a snowflake and an ass. Ignoring that only one of those claims is true, isn't name calling a sin?

[DJL 232]

Quote

The problem here, and it is your problem not mine, is that you guy's are
accustomed to people pussy footing around when you make outrageous claims or avoid answering questions because the topic is religion. Your trick is to play the polite society card so as to keep the conversation, you in particular, sounding reasonable. The problem is that what you and Jay are saying is anything but reasonable and some of us are flat out of polite society cards.

Consider only what wolfriverjoe just observed: he's out in the world and you are fearfully holed up in the woods. Who is likely to have a more realistic world view?

Jay get's damn touchy as a way of getting people to go away. He's called me a snowflake and an ass. Ignoring that only one of those claims is true, isn't name calling a sin?

I like that "polite society card" way of putting it. I see it kind of like telling a kid that Santa doesn't exist and usually just let them go on in their happy life. For many people religion is a good crutch and I'd rather that they believe in something that keeps them in line morally, it's better than them being alcoholics or assholes. It was a good thing for me when I was younger, I got into a lot of trouble as a kid.

When they turn the corner and use religion as a reason to impede other people's lives then the kid gloves are off.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[gowlerk 1,933]

Quote

I like that "polite society card" way of putting it.

This whole religion in America thing is really more about culture than it is about theology. It is a shorthand for who is a "real American" (in Canada some people are starting to say "old stock Canadian") and who is an outsider. The real purpose of fundamentalism is to control the membership and to keep the influence of outsiders at bay.

It is the same thing as Islamic fundamentalism except that we have social norms that rejected having priests in charge of government centuries ago. But there is no shortage of zealots who would reverse that in a heartbeat if they could. And that is why the rest of us must be ever vigilant.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.