Can an atheist get into Heaven

[wolfriverjoe 1,481]

jaybird18c

I thought we were talking about the accuracy and trustworthiness of the Bible. But now we're on to the existence of God?

Well, we started off when I asked if Stephen Hawking would get into Heaven.

However, YOU are the one who claimed that there is a 'preponderance of evidence' proving the existence of God.

You have been asked repeatedly what that evidence is.

So is there a preponderance of evidence for God's existence? Or were you just making that up?

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jaybird18c 9]

My evidence comment was in reference to the accuracy and trustworthiness of the Bible. There's plenty evidence for the existence of God also. However, I'm quite certain you don't agree with any of that either.

[jcd11235 0]

jaybird18c

My comment was in response to what jcd11235 said:
"An omniscient creator and a creation with free will must be mutually exclusive. Free will implies an unknowable future, even by god." I believe the small section on Boettner's book addresses what he was talking about.

Perhaps he attempted to address the paradox, but he certainly failed to resolve it.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jaybird18c 9]

jcd11235

***My comment was in response to what jcd11235 said:
"An omniscient creator and a creation with free will must be mutually exclusive. Free will implies an unknowable future, even by god." I believe the small section on Boettner's book addresses what he was talking about.

Perhaps he attempted to address the paradox, but he certainly failed to resolve it.

It's honestly what made it make sense to me. I don't see the paradox. Seriously.

[gowlerk 2,114]

Quote

There's plenty evidence for the existence of God also.

The only evidence for God is that it can not be proven that there is no God. Other than that there is nothing at all. If that is enough for you I'm fine with it. But surely you can understand why so many people find it to be lacking.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[jcd11235 0]

jaybird18c

******My comment was in response to what jcd11235 said:
"An omniscient creator and a creation with free will must be mutually exclusive. Free will implies an unknowable future, even by god." I believe the small section on Boettner's book addresses what he was talking about.

Perhaps he attempted to address the paradox, but he certainly failed to resolve it.

It's honestly what made it make sense to me. I don't see the paradox. Seriously.

"Foreknowledge must not be confused with foreordination. Foreknowledge presupposes foreordination, but is not itself foreordination. The actions of free agents do not take place because they are foreseen, but they are foreseen because they are certain to take place."

If the actions are "certain to take place", they are definitely not executed by free agents.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[billvon 2,772]

>It's honestly what made it make sense to me. I don't see the paradox.

If God is omniscient, then he knows every choice you will make for the rest of your life - and you are not free to make a different one, for then you would prove God is not omniscient.

The second quote you posted addressed this - "Since God's foreknowledge is complete, He knows the destiny of every person, not merely before the person has made his choice in this life, but from eternity." Your destiny is pre-set, no matter what you do.

[JoeWeber 2,613]

jaybird18c

******My comment was in response to what jcd11235 said:
"An omniscient creator and a creation with free will must be mutually exclusive. Free will implies an unknowable future, even by god." I believe the small section on Boettner's book addresses what he was talking about.

Perhaps he attempted to address the paradox, but he certainly failed to resolve it.

It's honestly what made it make sense to me. I don't see the paradox. Seriously.

Jay,

No one here begrudges your beliefs. Why not take a different tack? The truth is that you read the bible and you also read many scholarly works by theologians who are doing their best to make sense of the bible. Why not simply tell us that those readings resonate with you on a very deep and spiritual level. And that's that.

The thing is that you claim evidence and proof and so on. When you are pressed nothing materializes. Why not just say that you have no proof or evidence that would satisfy a secularist and that you were mistaken to make the claim? Then tell us that the truth arena that we play in is different from yours and that you hope us the best.

I say this because the more you argue ineffectively the less I believe you have no doubts.

[jakee 1,379]

jaybird18c

It's honestly what made it make sense to me. I don't see the paradox. Seriously.

Because you don't want there to be a paradox. You actually posted a quote from Boettner (who you now, after educating youself, accept has a girl's name) in which he lays out what the paradox is, and makes no attempt at resolving it. If you were remotely interested in applying any intelligence to the problem it would be impossible for Boettner to have made sense of it for you.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[RonD1120 59]

JoeWeber

*********My comment was in response to what jcd11235 said:
"An omniscient creator and a creation with free will must be mutually exclusive. Free will implies an unknowable future, even by god." I believe the small section on Boettner's book addresses what he was talking about.

Perhaps he attempted to address the paradox, but he certainly failed to resolve it.

It's honestly what made it make sense to me. I don't see the paradox. Seriously.

Jay,

No one here begrudges your beliefs. Why not take a different tack? The truth is that you read the bible and you also read many scholarly works by theologians who are doing their best to make sense of the bible. Why not simply tell us that those readings resonate with you on a very deep and spiritual level. And that's that.

The thing is that you claim evidence and proof and so on. When you are pressed nothing materializes. Why not just say that you have no proof or evidence that would satisfy a secularist and that you were mistaken to make the claim? Then tell us that the truth arena that we play in is different from yours and that you hope us the best.

I say this because the more you argue ineffectively the less I believe you have no doubts.

This Easter morning I reflect back to 16 Mar 1981 when I was stranded in the Sierra Nevada Mountains. I realized that I was lost and dying. The Holy Spirit spoke to me and said, “Why don't you try Jesus? You have tried everything else.”

I surrendered and ask Jesus to come into my heart and take control of my life.

At that moment I felt the power of the love of God flow over me from the crown of my head to the soles of my feet. I saw memory visions of every time in my life where I denied Christ, cursed God and ridiculed His word. As each memory came into my foreground perception the voice of the Lord said, “I forgive you.”

My life and my mind became transformed. I became a new creature in Christ. I was born again.

Two years later, 26 Mar 1983, I said to myself that I had to stop drinking alcohol. I had no control to quit as soon as I consumed the first beer.

I humbled myself before the Lord and asked Him for help. The first part of April He transformed my thinking patterns once again. He reprogrammed my mind by rearranging all of my memory bytes. I received a new operating system and I was delivered from the desire to use all mood altering substances.

God by the Holy Spirit through Jesus the Christ has sustained me these past thirty-seven and thirty-five years respectively.

My only desire is to share the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified for your sins.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jakee 1,379]

RonD1120

This Easter morning I reflect back to 16 Mar 1981 when I was stranded in the Sierra Nevada Mountains. I realized that I was lost and dying. The Holy Spirit spoke to me and said, “Why don't you try Jesus? You have tried everything else.”

I surrendered and ask Jesus to into my heart and take control of my life.

At that moment I felt the power of the love of God flow over me from the crown of my head to the soles of my feet. I saw memory visions of every time in my life where I denied Christ, cursed God and ridiculed His word. As each memory came into my foreground perception the voice of the Lord said, “I forgive you.”

So what you’re saying is, for you it was easy. God physically manifested to you, otherwise you didn’t believe and still wouldn’t believe.

What if you’d been in an accident one day before god spoke to you? You’d be in hell forever. Would that have been fair?

Is it fair to everyone who does die without believing that god didn’t treat them the same as you and personally, audibly speak to them and ask them to believe in him?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[RonD1120 59]

jakee

***This Easter morning I reflect back to 16 Mar 1981 when I was stranded in the Sierra Nevada Mountains. I realized that I was lost and dying. The Holy Spirit spoke to me and said, “Why don't you try Jesus? You have tried everything else.”

I surrendered and ask Jesus to into my heart and take control of my life.

At that moment I felt the power of the love of God flow over me from the crown of my head to the soles of my feet. I saw memory visions of every time in my life where I denied Christ, cursed God and ridiculed His word. As each memory came into my foreground perception the voice of the Lord said, “I forgive you.”

So what you’re saying is, for you it was easy. God physically manifested to you, otherwise you didn’t believe and still wouldn’t believe.

What if you’d been in an accident one day before god spoke to you? You’d be in hell forever. Would that have been fair?

Is it fair to everyone who does die without believing that god didn’t treat them the same as you and personally, audibly speak to them and ask them to believe in him?

God is not fair, He is just.

You have been given the rules or the plan if you will. The choice is yours.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[wmw999 2,334]

Ron, that’s a powerful personal testament. No one can dispute your feelings. However, people who have also tried crying out and did not feel the love of God might be excused for wondering if they’re doing it “right.” Mother Teresa said she didn’t feel the presence of God for a long time in her life, but kept praying and trying.

What you have is not accessible to everyone, no matter how often you say it is. Because it requires something recognizable as a spiritual experience. It’s a difficult paradox for some people. Just as predestination vs foreknowledge vs free will is. If one desires closeness to God, how do you know? It was obvious to you. There might be people in your religious community to whom it really didn’t happen as transcendently, but because they were raised in it, they identify some other experience as the acceptance.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[JoeWeber 2,613]

RonD1120

************My comment was in response to what jcd11235 said:
"An omniscient creator and a creation with free will must be mutually exclusive. Free will implies an unknowable future, even by god." I believe the small section on Boettner's book addresses what he was talking about.

Perhaps he attempted to address the paradox, but he certainly failed to resolve it.

It's honestly what made it make sense to me. I don't see the paradox. Seriously.

Jay,

No one here begrudges your beliefs. Why not take a different tack? The truth is that you read the bible and you also read many scholarly works by theologians who are doing their best to make sense of the bible. Why not simply tell us that those readings resonate with you on a very deep and spiritual level. And that's that.

The thing is that you claim evidence and proof and so on. When you are pressed nothing materializes. Why not just say that you have no proof or evidence that would satisfy a secularist and that you were mistaken to make the claim? Then tell us that the truth arena that we play in is different from yours and that you hope us the best.

I say this because the more you argue ineffectively the less I believe you have no doubts.

This Easter morning I reflect back to 16 Mar 1981 when I was stranded in the Sierra Nevada Mountains. I realized that I was lost and dying. The Holy Spirit spoke to me and said, “Why don't you try Jesus? You have tried everything else.”

I surrendered and ask Jesus to come into my heart and take control of my life.

At that moment I felt the power of the love of God flow over me from the crown of my head to the soles of my feet. I saw memory visions of every time in my life where I denied Christ, cursed God and ridiculed His word. As each memory came into my foreground perception the voice of the Lord said, “I forgive you.”

My life and my mind became transformed. I became a new creature in Christ. I was born again.

Two years later, 26 Mar 1983, I said to myself that I had to stop drinking alcohol. I had no control to quit as soon as I consumed the first beer.

I humbled myself before the Lord and asked Him for help. The first part of April He transformed my thinking patterns once again. He reprogrammed my mind by rearranging all of my memory bytes. I received a new operating system and I was delivered from the desire to use all mood altering substances.

God by the Holy Spirit through Jesus the Christ has sustained me these past thirty-seven and thirty-five years respectively.

My only desire is to share the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified for your sins.


Worldwide 15000 children 5 years of age and younger die every day, including Easter. The causes are more often horrible than not. Starvation, animal attacks, defects in their bodies, disease, genocide, you name it. In most cases their parents will have done everything in their power to save them.

However, the overwhelming majority of these children and parents will be completely unaware of the Christian God. Consequently they will have no higher power to turn to when all is lost and their cries of anguish and terror will not be heard.

None will dress in their Sunday best today, none will frolic at the day's festivities, none will hunt for hidden, colored eggs.

For me, the existence of actual, provable truths like that make accepting the revealed truths you prefer utterly impossible.

[christelsabine 1]

RonD1120

************My comment was in response to what jcd11235 said:
"An omniscient creator and a creation with free will must be mutually exclusive. Free will implies an unknowable future, even by god." I believe the small section on Boettner's book addresses what he was talking about.

Perhaps he attempted to address the paradox, but he certainly failed to resolve it.

It's honestly what made it make sense to me. I don't see the paradox. Seriously.

Jay,

No one here begrudges your beliefs. Why not take a different tack? The truth is that you read the bible and you also read many scholarly works by theologians who are doing their best to make sense of the bible. Why not simply tell us that those readings resonate with you on a very deep and spiritual level. And that's that.

The thing is that you claim evidence and proof and so on. When you are pressed nothing materializes. Why not just say that you have no proof or evidence that would satisfy a secularist and that you were mistaken to make the claim? Then tell us that the truth arena that we play in is different from yours and that you hope us the best.

I say this because the more you argue ineffectively the less I believe you have no doubts.

This Easter morning I reflect back to 16 Mar 1981 when I was stranded in the Sierra Nevada Mountains. I realized that I was lost and dying. The Holy Spirit spoke to me and said, “Why don't you try Jesus? You have tried everything else.”

I surrendered and ask Jesus to come into my heart and take control of my life.

At that moment I felt the power of the love of God flow over me from the crown of my head to the soles of my feet. I saw memory visions of every time in my life where I denied Christ, cursed God and ridiculed His word. As each memory came into my foreground perception the voice of the Lord said, “I forgive you.”

My life and my mind became transformed. I became a new creature in Christ. I was born again.

Two years later, 26 Mar 1983, I said to myself that I had to stop drinking alcohol. I had no control to quit as soon as I consumed the first beer.

I humbled myself before the Lord and asked Him for help. The first part of April He transformed my thinking patterns once again. He reprogrammed my mind by rearranging all of my memory bytes. I received a new operating system and I was delivered from the desire to use all mood altering substances.

God by the Holy Spirit through Jesus the Christ has sustained me these past thirty-seven and thirty-five years respectively.

My only desire is to share the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Him crucified for your sins.

As per your above report, you were a drinker (when god spoke to you) and continued drinking alcohol for the next 2 years. Then, you decided to stop. Congrats, that needs willpower.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[jaybird18c 9]

billvon

If God is omniscient, then he knows every choice you will make for the rest of your life - and you are not free to make a different one, for then you would prove God is not omniscient.

The second quote you posted addressed this - "Since God's foreknowledge is complete, He knows the destiny of every person, not merely before the person has made his choice in this life, but from eternity." Your destiny is pre-set, no matter what you do.

God is in fact omniscient. He also knows the nature of man perfectly. He knows what man will choose before he does so. Because God knows what man will choose does not mean that he controls what he will do. The fallen nature of man ensures that he will choose that which is in opposition to the will of God. He will always choose that which is consistent with his nature. But it's still his free choice even if it is predictable. It's just that he would never choose differently unless his very nature were changed. That is exactly what occurs when the spirit of a man is regenerated. The Bible describes it as becoming a new creature in Christ with new desires. That person is now free to choose that which is consistent with his new nature. That which is consistent with the will of God.

Charles Spurgeon used an analogy. He said that pigs in a barnyard get up every day and go to the trough full of slop to eat. You could place a gourmet meal on a platter on the other side of the barnyard but they will consistently choose the slop. They'll even roll around in it. It's predictable. They're pigs. They do what pigs do. Now if the nature of that pig could be transformed into that of a man, he might get still get up and go to the slop trough. However, this time he'll realize something is wrong. His new nature would change his inclinations. Whether a pig or a man, however, free will is exercised.

[jcd11235 0]

jaybird18c

Because God knows what man will choose does not mean that he controls what he will do.

It does imply that man does not have control in what he will do.

Quote

But it's still his free choice even if it is predictable.

Lots of things are predictable without being knowable. I predict every MLB team wins at least 50 games this season. It's probable enough that it can safely be predicted, but it can't be known until the last place team wins their 50th game of the season. If it is known, it is fixed, no free-will possible.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[gowlerk 2,114]

Then when God created man he would have known that man would fall. I suppose we don't know why God bothered creating man. But like many of the Gods man created before he created the God of Abraham it would appear that man exists to amuse God.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[jakee 1,379]

RonD1120

God is not fair, He is just.

You have been given the rules or the plan if you will. The choice is yours.

Fairness is an integral part of justice. Justice cannot be just if it is unfair.

You didn’t follow the rules, and you still wouldn’t if you didn’t think god had manifested to you and (literally, not metaphorically) spoken to you like he did with the prophets.

I’ve never seen or been given any reason to think god exists, and I sure as hell haven’t been spoken to by one. So I guess the question is ‘what makes you so special?’

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jaybird18c 9]

Quote

I’ve never seen or been given any reason to think god exists, and I sure as hell haven’t been spoken to by one. So I guess the question is ‘what makes you so special?’

God is both fair and just.

(Romans 1: 19-20) "For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse."

[jaybird18c 9]

gowlerk

Then when God created man he would have known that man would fall. I suppose we don't know why God bothered creating man. But like many of the Gods man created before he created the God of Abraham it would appear that man exists to amuse God.

God created for his own glory and for our good and he did know man would fall.

[jaybird18c 9]

Quote

Lots of things are predictable without being knowable. I predict every MLB team wins at least 50 games this season. It's probable enough that it can safely be predicted, but it can't be known until the last place team wins their 50th game of the season. If it is known, it is fixed, no free-will possible.

But you're not God and, therefore, omniscient.

[gowlerk 2,114]

jaybird18c

***Then when God created man he would have known that man would fall. I suppose we don't know why God bothered creating man. But like many of the Gods man created before he created the God of Abraham it would appear that man exists to amuse God.

God created for his own glory and for our good and he did know man would fall.


I'm thinking She could have done better for her glory if She had chosen to. I'm sticking with the amusement theory.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[jcd11235 0]

jaybird18c

But you're not God and, therefore, omniscient.

It doesn't matter who/what knows, man, god, or alien. If the future is knowable that implies it is fixed, predestined. Therefore, if you have an omniscient creator that knows the future, then you don't have free will.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jaybird18c 9]

Quote

Therefore, if you have an omniscient creator that knows the future, then you don't have free will.

God does not control you. You weren't created to sin and he does not cause you to sin. Just because he knows what you will does not remove your choice or responsibility.