jduebi 0 #1 July 14, 2006 Hi there A week ago I did a jump with a stupid landing. I didn't sleep enough, but I felt awake enough to handle a jump easyly. It was a great jump until about 1200 feet. I forgot to check the wind bellow 1200 feet, I didn't check the speed of the jumpers which landed bellow me, perhaps because I was a little tiered. I turned into downwind at the usual spot and got realy slow because of the strong crosswind. I was to low to do a clean base/final, the only way to reach a landing area was straight ahead... (Our dropzone has the 'always' parallel to the runway rule) I was about 600 feet and had 3 choices: 1.) Fly straight forward and land on the student area safley, but opposed to the other jumpers. 2.) Slow 180 degree turn and land on a 30 feet band of bicycle way and grass just beside a street with some fast traffic. 3.) Land in the cornfield which is for shure no fun at all. There where just 2 students in the air which I could easyly avoid. So I decided to land straight forward opposed to them. What do you think? Would you generaly avoid any landing area if you land opposed to the other jumpers? Would preffere to land into a high cornfield with a warranty of plf? Or would you land close to a street? Thanks for the answer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 July 14, 2006 Personally I would have observed the winds prior to boarding the AC and have had created a landing pattern and direction in my mind for those winds. However, when faced with a choice like that, I would have opted for the more difficult landing area that was small. However, I've landed in those types of areas more then a few times. Its something I know I can do safely. Landing against the pattern in traffic isn't a very good option. Our sports incidents history will tell us that very easily and quickly. At the end of the day you have to land safely for yourself without putting others in danger. You have to decide what that means. Putting other jumpers in danger is not a good option, though.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #3 July 14, 2006 QuoteWhat do you think? Would you generaly avoid any landing area if you land opposed to the other jumpers? Would preffere to land into a high cornfield with a warranty of plf? Or would you land close to a street? Learn your lesson Get enough sleep Don't let it happen again If you have survived it that is an experience. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jduebi 0 #4 July 14, 2006 Your totaly right. I think my biggest problem is, that I'v got 51 jumps and the fear is getting lower every jump. I read a lot about people who have a hard time fighting their fear, and I also had some moments during my first 15 jumps. But isn't it a much bigger problem if the fear and respect is going away? It's perhaps also because of my age, that the fear is going away much faster. I don't wanna tell you, that I'm a cool guy, I know that this is stupid... There are some students in my age and I recognized that most of them also get this problem the more jumps they have. I just wanna know if you also expirianced this moments, when you recognize that you don't take it serious enough? And what do you do against it without loosing the fun? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Perhaps I should make a new post for this question. Something like: 'How to keep focus if your loosing your fear? How to avoid becoming a daredevil if your a young guy starting to skydive?' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #5 July 14, 2006 The number one rule is to land safely. I have more than 4,500 jumps and would have been very comfortable landing in the tight area you described. That might not be a reasonable area for somebody with 51 jumps facing an unexpected high wind situation. If you considered that area too much of a challenge, then a straight-in landing against traffic might have been a better bet, assuming the traffic was light and your 'rule violation' wouldn't have put anybody else in jeopardy. Keep in mind that the winds had changed at 1,200 feet, and that alone gave you reason to be concerned about the congested area. If the winds changed at 1,200 feet, it tells me the air was somewhat unstable, and the winds could have easily changed again closer to the ground, or become turbulent. When there is a sudden wind change within a couple of thousand feet of the ground, it is well worth adding extra caution to your approach, especially if the LZ is small or congested. It would really suck to make your decision at 1,200 feet to land in the congested area, and then get to 500 feet and realize the winds were too strong or turbulent for that option. Landing against the defined direction might have raised some concerns among the jumpers on the ground, but hopefully they were be bright enough to listen to your reasoning, forgive the decision, and help you avoid getting into that situation in the future. It sounds like everything worked out well enough, so I'd say the decision you made was probably the right one, and you have already learned a lesson. .Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jduebi 0 #6 July 14, 2006 Thank you for that answer... It's great to hear, that the decision wasn't that stupid. Nobody told me to land beside the street and nobody told me that I should have landed into the cornfield. But everyone at the dropzone told me that it was completly stupid to land opposed to the stundents. Of course it would have been a problem if there would have been more jumpers in the air. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #7 July 14, 2006 What was the problem with the corn field??..... Corn doesn't have teeth.....in fact because the ground has been ploughed it would be a pretty soft area with no hard objects hidden in it.... So you smash down a few cornstalks.... Anyway you got away with it....so learn the lessons.... There wouldn't be a skydiver around who didn't screw up at least once....most of us get away undamaged.....but not always.... I found skydivers with about 50 - 200 jumps to be the ones who made most mistakes.....normally at that stage you are 10 foot tall and bulletproof, and get a little overconfident and cocky with your own ability.... get past that stage and you've probably calmed down a little and begin to take a few less risks... When overconfidence outweighs ability, the difference is potential disaster.....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jduebi 0 #8 July 14, 2006 That's exactly my problem... Everything worked out... Some linetwists, one or two plf but never any injuries... Perhaps that sounds wierd. "If you know that problem, why don't you just take it more serious..." That's not that easy as a young guy who wanna hava some action, you start to drift in this dardevil approach without recognizing it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #9 July 14, 2006 Perhaps that sounds wierd. "If you know that problem, why don't you just take it more serious..." That's not that easy as a young guy who wanna hava some action, you start to drift in this dardevil approach without recognizing it> Well its human nature...you get over the fear, get right into the fun, and can see no problems......I know what its like...was exactly the same myself...took some crazy risks but always got away with it..... As a DZO I knew it was these guys who needed to be watched the most.....and I made it so they were very aware that I'd hammer them if they tried any stupid stunts..... A lot of them didn't agree at the time, but later in their careers acknowledged that I was right.... You can learn a lot of lessons without pain.....but you do tend to remember the ones that come at cost....... The day you stop learning .....is the day to quit skydiving..... Learning NEVER stops.....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #10 July 14, 2006 Given that scenario,I would have aimed for the cornfield. Granted, some one with my 5,000 might be able to handle landing beside a road, but I just spent last Sunday drilling into a first jump student the notion that roads are surrounded by ditches and fences and trucks and wires, etc. that you will not see until too late. Landing beside the road would have turned me into a hypocrite ... and I have no patience with hypocrites. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #11 July 14, 2006 See Tom's answer above. BUT..... If you do land in a corn field be aware that by now the corn can be 6 or 8 feet tall. If you flare for the top of the corn you'll be flaring high. Also land with the rows and down a row. Landing across the rows isn't much fun. Also note which way your landing and which way to the nearest edge of the field or nearest road. It's easy to get turned around in the corn and walk the wrong way. Take some time gathering your canopy. If it's hung over a lot of the stalks it'll take a while to lift off and untangle. Try to damage the corn as little as possible, it's somebody's income. At your level you probably did the best thing. Along the street wasn't appropriate at your level with other options available. The corn may have been the best, but a pain in the ass for you.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #12 July 14, 2006 Quote(Our dropzone has the 'always' parallel to the runway rule) What if the winds are perpendicular to the runway? They want people doing crosswind landings? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jduebi 0 #13 July 14, 2006 QuoteQuote(Our dropzone has the 'always' parallel to the runway rule) What if the winds are perpendicular to the runway? They want people doing crosswind landings? I got the instruction that we land parallel to the runway against the wind or into the direction of the first jumper. Of course you can land angular to the runway, and there are several alternative landing zones. But I never ever saw someone land across the runway onto the main lz. I think that rule is especialy for the main landing zone, because if you would land perpendicular to the runway and land after or before the lz you woul hit a building, land on the runway or into a creek. I'm realy not expirianced and I don't wanna say anything which brings my home dz into a bad light. It's realy a great DZ! We have a realy good and realy realy realy expirianced DZO and I'm shure he made the right decision. It's a swiss dropzone and it's perfectly organized and they are realy aware about security! I'm shure they know what they do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #14 July 14, 2006 QuoteI'm realy not expirianced and I don't wanna say anything which brings my home dz into a bad light. It's realy a great DZ! We have a realy good and realy realy realy expirianced DZO and I'm shure he made the right decision. It's a swiss dropzone and it's perfectly organized and they are realy aware about security! I'm shure they know what they do. Why does it seem like everyone has such a safe DZ where nothing could really go wrong and everyone is so safety concious? I actually usually hear that after a pilot fucked up or a student got injured."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 153 #15 July 14, 2006 The BEST thing you can do to be safe is learn from it (why you are here). From my read of things, yes you made a couple mistakes (that we've ALL made): 1. Complacent - there are stages where it is common, and you are there my friend. It is better to sharpen you skills and reset your focus than have something scare you straight. Hopefully this will be the thing to do it. 2. Jumping while not 100% - (comes from #1) Its like packing... 100% is not necessary, but knowing whether or not you should be jumping on a given day will come from experience... Sounds like you just found out what is "too tired" 3. Unobservant about LZ conditions (comes from #1 & #2) - Ok, been there - done that... don't forget next time. 4. 1,2&3 lead to 3 poor options... you made the call based on things we can't see and it worked, so it worked. Hard to second-guess you, but... given what you described, I would suggest that the corn field holds the least danger... Corn field - embarising, paper-type cuts, don't flare too high, muddy soil, disentangling the canopy and finding your way out... anoying, but no more. Opposing traffic - IFF you know how many other canopies, you know where they are, you know what they are going to do, you know how to keep from meeting until after landing... ok... maybe. If ANY of this is in doubt, this runs the risk of 100' entaglement and two folks decending without any open canopy... bad juju. Next to path / road - With 1000 jumps, my mid-performance canopy, PERSONAL knowledge of the path, road, ditches, fences and possible power/phone lines... maybe I would (and maybe I would regret it). Without KNOWING what was there, next to roads is generally a bad idea for the above concerns.* Not knowing your LZ, "parallel to the runway" might be a very good idea given obsticles, LZ shape and student's propensity to be low over runways when trying to come in at an angle. This is how we learn the difference between which way I am facing vs which way I am going. Crabbing is fun. However I would also review crosswind plf's. *Inadvertantly landing on the road can be very bad... I recall one student fatality that occured after a safe landing... the truck did not stop in time. Good luck in learning and jumping safe. JimAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jduebi 0 #16 July 18, 2006 Thank you for all the answers... Everyone seams to have a little different opionion, but the answers are still realy usefull to me. These are the main points, I'll try to take with me out of this discussion: - Landing is the most dangerous part of the sport, plan it early enough and keep concentrated until the canopy lies on the ground. - Never endanger other people if there is another way you could survive. - Don't try to land within a zone which is to small for your skills, as long as you have another possibility. - Be honest to your selve, and keep your personal limits in mind. One jump less a day, is one jump less and nothing more. One jump to much at a day could end in no skydivining for some months or even no skydiving anymore at all... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 153 #17 July 18, 2006 QuoteThank you for all the answers... Everyone seams to have a little different opionion, but the answers are still realy usefull to me. These are the main points, I'll try to take with me out of this discussion: - Landing is the most dangerous part of the sport, plan it early enough and keep concentrated until the canopy lies on the ground. - Never endanger other people if there is another way you could survive. - Don't try to land within a zone which is to small for your skills, as long as you have another possibility. - Be honest to your selve, and keep your personal limits in mind. One jump less a day, is one jump less and nothing more. One jump to much at a day could end in no skydivining for some months or even no skydiving anymore at all... The lessons you've picked up are harsh... but so are mistakes in this sport. Remember to have fun too! The first long-term lesson you've learned is the most important: Review what happened, Ask questions from (hopefully) knowledgeable jumpers, Listen to their advice and think about the different answers to better prepare for next time. I would rather jump with a thinking partner than one who has never before made any mistakes... Blue Skies, Jim Always remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #18 July 18, 2006 QuoteI would rather jump with a thinking partner than one who has never before made any mistakes... Yeah. I'd rather choose a pilot who has crash some planes before. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 153 #19 July 18, 2006 QuoteQuoteI would rather jump with a thinking partner than one who has never before made any mistakes... Yeah. I'd rather choose a pilot who has crash some planes before. Its like landing with retractable gear up... there are those that have and those that will. Those thinking jumpers that have had the sh!t scared out of them are less likely to do that again and tend to look at everything more carefully. I know very few long-time jumpers that have not come down at least once shaking in their boots trying to figure out how they screwed up. Of course, there are those who blindly have close calls and don't think about all aspects of the situation... but it does not sound like this gent is one of them. BLUE ONES, JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #20 July 19, 2006 Quote... There where just 2 students in the air which I could easyly avoid. So I decided to land straight forward opposed to them.. You erringly got yourself into a corner and used your head to get out. A smack on the ass and a Congrats. Hopefully you would have chosen the cornfield had the two student's locations/proximities been in doubt. The near-road option was the worst of the three.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
docjohn 0 #21 July 19, 2006 1.) Fly straight forward and land on the student area safley, but opposed to the other jumpers. ......Potential injury/death to you and others 2.) Slow 180 degree turn and land on a 30 feet band of bicycle way and grass just beside a street with some fast traffic. .......Potential injury/death to you and others 3.) Land in the cornfield which is for shure no fun at all. Potential for laughter Corn gets my vote.....been there . Doc http://www.manifestmaster.com/video Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
