So, my thread has been blocked...

[tkhayes 140]

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Take personal responsibility for yourself and your family.

sounds awesome, however cannot be legislated nor enacted in any way whatsoever. Not realistic, and not ever implemented or reflected at any time in the history of the world.

Nothing more than ideology. We actually live in a real world, not some fantasy of what utopia that you think is even possible.

And you would be the first person to steal food for your family if you were ever in the situation where you needed to, since that would also be 'taking personal responsibility'.

I know, I know - that would never happen to you of course because of your sincere and superior handling of all of life's matters.....

But some people actually end up with disease and tragedy, and then a job loss or death/injury on top of that. And some people simply cannot catch a break no matter how hard they try.

But your outlook at least, clearly tells us how much you give a shit about your fellow human, your fellow countrymen or your fellow American. Every man for himself, personal responsibility is obviously and guaranteed to be a success for all.....

[tkhayes 140]

RonD1120

I believe there is a black militant culture that is purposely being instigated to create chaos, mayhem and murder. I believe that is one factor in the program of the power elite. I believe radical Islamic terrorism is another. I believe we need to find safety by banning together. I believe we, as a nation need to humble ourselves and turn to God to heal our nation. God has a plan, Satan has a plot.

I believe that you are a self-loathing and hate filled human that has little regard for the teachings of the book that you claim to uphold. And that your direct actions reflect that.

I think the world is better off without people like you spreading your message of hate, cleverly disguised as some sort of twisted love for humanity. Which really means only love for people like you....mostly white and mostly Christian.

[RonD1120 58]

tkhayes

***I believe there is a black militant culture that is purposely being instigated to create chaos, mayhem and murder. I believe that is one factor in the program of the power elite. I believe radical Islamic terrorism is another. I believe we need to find safety by banning together. I believe we, as a nation need to humble ourselves and turn to God to heal our nation. God has a plan, Satan has a plot.

I believe that you are a self-loathing and hate filled human that has little regard for the teachings of the book that you claim to uphold. And that your direct actions reflect that.

I think the world is better off without people like you spreading your message of hate, cleverly disguised as some sort of twisted love for humanity. Which really means only love for people like you....mostly white and mostly Christian.

I believe you believe what you think you know. I believe that is a paraphrase from quade.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[tkhayes 140]

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I believe you believe what you think you know.

ditto for you I am sure....the difference is that you are 'certain' that you know and then you act on it. Which by way of factual evidence demonstrates what I originally said, as opposed to 'what you think'.

[billvon 2,434]

Your one warning. Cut it out.

[Bolas 5]

tkhayes

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Take personal responsibility for yourself and your family.

sounds awesome, however cannot be legislated nor enacted in any way whatsoever. Not realistic, and not ever implemented or reflected at any time in the history of the world.

Nothing more than ideology. We actually live in a real world, not some fantasy of what utopia that you think is even possible.

Untrue. While one could not necessarily make a singe "personal responsibility/accountability" law/policy, it's a concept that can be effectively incorporated into laws and policy by ensuring no one gets something for "free."

The reason it is generally not done is because such laws and policies would cause people to die if they did not take care of themselves.

An easy example would be food. If one were to take the extremist position that all food has to be bought and paid for, people who can't afford it would starve and die. On the contrary, if one were to take the extremist position that all food is "free", people would realize they don't have to do anything to eat.

Neither position is reasonable.

Anytime there is a "safety net" you're going to have people for one reason or another that never get off it: basically the only reason they're still alive is because others are supporting them.

What personal accountability/responsibility proposes is that everyone contributes in some way. Assistance may still be offered but it comes with stipulations and requirements all designed to lessen or eliminate the need for it in the future?

What's the solution? I think at some point a person's societal value should be factored in. Are they a contributing member of society, neutral, minor detriment, or burden? What is their history/prospects? What could be done to mitigate future negative impact such as reversible sterilization?

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[StreetScooby 5]

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If you would please answer one, very simple question for me so I can better understand your point of view regarding race relations in the US.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

quade - thanks for not banning me. I do have a sincere wish to better phrase this situation. I think it's a conversation our country needs to have. I'm also hoping that now we're towards the end of this thread, other people will share their thoughts on how to actually phrase the conversation, assuming they think it's one we need to have.

Yes, my original thread was very provocative. Hey, this is Speakers corner. And, yes, I pushed the limits here. But it's reached a point where police officers are being hunted because of this situation, and I find that absolutely unacceptable.

I grew up in the deep south. Both of my parents, and their siblings, cousins, etc., still to this day refer to blacks as n-grs, independent of what's in that person's heart, or their behavior. Even worse, they are fundamentalist Christians, and they still do that. I have very little to do with these people at this point in time. By the time I was in college, I had become absolutely appalled at that behavior. Believe me when I say this is not a word I use casually. It is not. I have seen the worst of racist behavior. I left the deep south in part to get away from that. It is utterly appalling, and it's wrong. Me, my sister, and some other cousins we kept in touch with have moved beyond that.

As for which came first, chicken or the egg? The KKK was very real in the area my parents grew up in, especially in the 1950s and 1960s. It was never discussed, but believe me I've met some scary fucking rednecks in my time. The once or twice it came up, my father quickly let me know that he made a very deliberate decision to have nothing to do with the KKK.

Now, the other thing about the culture I was raised in was this - every male worked his ass off. And I mean all of them. There was _NO_ _ONE_ that I knew that didn't work hard, no matter what the job was. It was expected. That was par for the course, this is what we do. And you take care of your family. End of story. Really, it was that simple. Most of the males in my family had a high school education. My grandparents, and others in that age group, generally did not. I was the first on either side to go to college.

Yes, I know blacks in slavery had their families destroyed for hundreds of years, and I for one cannot imagine the horror of having that happen. And that had to take a toll. Yet, after WWII, black families were doing reasonably well. Moms and Dads stayed together, and at a minimum Dad went to work every day. Please read the Moynihan report. It's from 1965. The issues he identified, mainly the disintegration of the black nuclear family, have only grown worse.
The Negro Family

So, let me ask you. Having posted the observations that I have in this thread (and there are lots of other people who have made the same observations), assuming you agree this is a conversation that needs to be had, how would you have it?

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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When you say it that way, it's impossible to tell which side you are trying to defend as it is the same perspective.
Maybe take that into consideration?

Assuming you think the country needs to have a conversation along these lines, how would you phrase it?

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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Do you have any ideas for solutions (besides saying 'nigger' on a skydiving website, which is apparently an important part of starting a dialogue) or are you just venting?

Assuming you think the country needs to have a conversation along these lines, how would you phrase it?

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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Well, since you're not involved with that solution, why talk about it?

Assuming you think the country needs to have a conversation along these lines, how would you phrase it?

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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Agreed.

Assuming you think the country needs to have a conversation along these lines, how would you phrase it?

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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You think this should be all solved this short time frame later? And, because it isn't solved you blame the people who really didn't create the problem to begin with.

Assuming you think the country needs to have a conversation along these lines, how would you phrase it?

We are all engines of karma

[quade 3]

I think this is a better start to the conversation and I appreciate you taking the time to write it out.

The Moynihan report you linked, published less than a year after blacks were even really allowed to vote, says in its first few paragraphs issues were getting worse and predicted they would continue to do so unless "America" took action.

I personally feel "America" hasn't taken enough action. In fact, I think very good cases can be made that since the end of the Civil War things have improved on the surface but in the 20th century other systemic ways have come into play which serve to break up "The Negro Family." Most notably is the "war on drugs," mandatory sentencing, and corporate prisons for profit.

I think it's pretty damn hard for males to take care of their families once they've been incarcerated and obviously it's impossible once they've hit three strikes and are serving life terms.

So where does that leave the families?

I don't have the answers, but I do know that simply saying "they" have to fix the problem isn't one.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[StreetScooby 5]

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sounds awesome, however cannot be legislated nor enacted in any way whatsoever.

Agreed.

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Not realistic, and not ever implemented or reflected at any time in the history of the world.

Eh, you're saying families can't take care of themselves? If I'm hearing that correctly, you're wrong. When I was growing up, I didn't know anyone (including friends fathers) that did not take care of themselves.

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Nothing more than ideology. We actually live in a real world, not some fantasy of what utopia that you think is even possible.

Where are you coming up with this? So, families can't take care of themselves, and that's just how the universe works? Is that what you're saying?

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But some people actually end up with disease and tragedy, and then a job loss or death/injury on top of that. And some people simply cannot catch a break no matter how hard they try.

Understood, but almost 50% of the country is getting some type of assistance, and the Obama administration heralds that as a major accomplishment.

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But your outlook at least, clearly tells us how much you give a shit about your fellow human, your fellow countrymen or your fellow American. Every man for himself, personal responsibility is obviously and guaranteed to be a success for all.....

That's melodramatic, but I can see where liberal philosophy can bankrupt an entire nation, e.g., Venezuela. These folks don't even have toilet paper anymore, much less food.

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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While one could not necessarily make a singe "personal responsibility/accountability" law/policy, it's a concept that can be effectively incorporated into laws and policy by ensuring no one gets something for "free."

Yes, it can be that simple, IMO. And it would be incredibly effective.

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Neither position is reasonable.

Exactly, where is the balance? Our country really needs to find it, and soon.

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What personal accountability/responsibility proposes is that everyone contributes in some way.

You would think that's a socialist's favorite phrase, until you throw in the work concept. Then, it seems to get a bit frayed on their side. ;-)

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What's the solution? I think at some point a person's societal value should be factored in. Are they a contributing member of society, neutral, minor detriment, or burden?

That's what markets are for, dude.

We are all engines of karma

[wmw999 2,148]

After the war, black people worked hard, and didn't, in general, get anything close to a proportional piece of the pie. Just a bigger one than they did before the war.

For a road trip, they used the green book to see where they could eat, stay, or use the facilities like white people. All through the south, it was automatic that they pretty much had to do whatever a white person said. Schools were, in general, much worse. It didn't work for a generation, and then MLK and more militant people came along.

My father was an adult during that period. He thought people were pushing too hard, that progress was being made. And he said that, in retrospect , he was completely wrong. Trust me when i say that's a very difficult thing for a college professor to say
He'd grown up in the north. His high school senior president was black (one of four or so). But that class president was good enough to get killed in the war, and not good enough for other stuff. All colors do that. I'm in favor of a mandatory year of service, and of the 1996 welfare reform.

I'm frustrated by how easy it is for some people to abuse the system. But NOTHING will get rid of all the freeloaders. So if we instead focus on helping the people who just don't have the imagination to get to a more productive place , it's more people moving towards, rather than away.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Bolas 5]

wmw999

I'm frustrated by how easy it is for some people to abuse the system. But NOTHING will get rid of all the freeloaders. So if we instead focus on helping the people who just don't have the imagination to get to a more productive place , it's more people moving towards, rather than away.

Wendy P.

Freeloading, if allowed unchecked, grows as those freeloading tend to have children who freeload continuing and expanding the cycle as well as others see freeloaders "getting away with it" may choose to start freeloading "why should I work when they don't and get stuff free " who then also have children...

Disagree NOTHING will get rid of all the freeloaders, but will concede that what it would require in the extreme cases would not be palatable to most.

Our government needs to stop trying to save everyone, especially from themselves.

Should private charities decide to step in and support the former freeloaders, would have no issue with that.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[StreetScooby 5]

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I personally feel "America" hasn't taken enough action

How so? And why did you put America in quotes?

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Most notably is the "war on drugs," mandatory sentencing, and corporate prisons for profit.

Yeah, I've personally witnessed the "war on drugs", that I shared in a previous post. Yet, it was black community leaders that pushed for those laws. This "epidemic" is firmly grounded in black communities trying to stop the predation that was happening in their neighborhoods. And it just keeps getting worse. You have black felons in Richmond, CA that are getting paid $1000/month not to rob stores in their neighborhoods. You have black felons in Rikers that are getting paid $800/month not to be delinquent. That model is fucking insane. Absolutely fucking insane, IMO.

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I think it's pretty damn hard for males to take care of their families once they've been incarcerated

Agreed. I'm going to put this out there - if they had Dad's that stayed at home and worked, and taught them a different culture at the dinner table, we wouldn't be in this place. It fundamentally is their problem to sort out.

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I don't have the answers, but I do know that simply saying "they" have to fix the problem isn't one.

Here we have to disagree. It is their responsibility. You look at all of the folks that came through Ellis Island. None of them got a hand out from the government. And, it took a generation or two for them to move forward. That's the case for _everyone_. My dad grew up in a house that didn't even have indoor plumbing, much less central air. You have to work your ass off. That's a minimum requirement to enjoy the fruits of the American experience.

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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Disagree NOTHING will get rid of all the freeloaders, but will concede that what it would require in the extreme cases would not be palatable to most.

Our federal government is $19 TRILLION dollars in debt. We're printing money out of our ass. Things that cannot continue won't. And that is exactly where we are heading. This is a topic for another thread...

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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Ohh the irony.

Assuming you think the country needs to have a conversation along these lines, how would you phrase it?

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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Whatever the legitimacy that may have existed in the ongoing points you were to proffer was lost in the quality of your word usage.

Assuming you think the country needs to have a conversation along these lines, how would you phrase it?

We are all engines of karma

[StreetScooby 5]

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So if we instead focus on helping the people who just don't have the imagination to get to a more productive place , it's more people moving towards, rather than away.

They have to want it, and be willing to work their ass off. It applies to all of us.

We are all engines of karma

[turtlespeed 212]

quade

I think this is a better start to the conversation and I appreciate you taking the time to write it out.

The Moynihan report you linked, published less than a year after blacks were even really allowed to vote, says in its first few paragraphs issues were getting worse and predicted they would continue to do so unless "America" took action.

I personally feel "America" hasn't taken enough action. In fact, I think very good cases can be made that since the end of the Civil War things have improved on the surface but in the 20th century other systemic ways have come into play which serve to break up "The Negro Family." Most notably is the "war on drugs," mandatory sentencing, and corporate prisons for profit.

I think it's pretty damn hard for males to take care of their families once they've been incarcerated and obviously it's impossible once they've hit three strikes and are serving life terms.

So where does that leave the families?

I don't have the answers, but I do know that simply saying "they" have to fix the problem isn't one.

Oh, we have taken PLENTY of actions. Just very few correct ones. Partial fixes and half efforts don't work. But at least the gov is consistent.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Coreeece 2]

StreetScooby

***
But some people actually end up with disease and tragedy, and then a job loss or death/injury on top of that. And some people simply cannot catch a break no matter how hard they try.

Understood, but almost 50% of the country is getting some type of assistance

Ok, but blacks only represent 12% of the country. I thought this was a much needed conversation about the cycle of violence and poverty in the inner city that has lead to the recent shootings in Dallas and Baton Rouge.

The fact is that the majority of those on assistance are either elderly or disabled, while others honestly cannot find a job or at least one that offers enough hours - and there are still others that are just too incompetent to hold a job. They cannot follow directions nor complete tasks - they are a liability.

IMO, you and bolas are overstating the amount of able body freeloaders and their effect on society. That money is gonna be allocated regardless - it's serves a legitimate purpose for those it was intended for. There are always going to be people that take advantage of the system, but I think the screening process is more effective today in limiting that abuse.

I can understand and appreciate what you're saying, but there needs to be an element of practicality. We can effectively advance an ideology that promotes personal responsibility and a strong work ethic. We can double the funding for our inner city schools and provide our children with the best education in the world, but none of it will matter if we don't have a socioeconomic structure that is capable of bringing that ideology to fruition.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[wmw999 2,148]

I would advocate adding parent education to the schools, in the form of a full-time paid liaison person. This is the person whose job it is to help the parents who might be willing to get more involved with their kids' education; hold functions that combine some entertainment with information about getting books easily to read to their kids, or at least that their kids can get access to.

All that stuff that we wish people would do, but that the vast majority have no experience with. And, just as there is a new generation of first graders every year, there'll be a new generation of unengaged parents every year

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)