A very bad night in Dallas

[gowlerk 1,924]

Words can not express my sadness. No excuse, no reason can even begin to explain this act of terrorism. This is not an act of protest. The protest was peaceful. I hope this does not mark the beginning of a long hot summer.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Coreeece 2]

gowlerk

Words can not express my sadness. No excuse, no reason can even begin to explain this act of terrorism. This is not an act of protest. The protest was peaceful.

Ya, I'm sure xenophobic gun lovin' misogynistic christian conservatives are somehow to blame. . .

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[gowlerk 1,924]

Coreeece

***Words can not express my sadness. No excuse, no reason can even begin to explain this act of terrorism. This is not an act of protest. The protest was peaceful.

Ya, I'm sure xenophobic gun lovin' misogynistic christian conservatives are somehow to blame. . .

It sounds like two individuals are to blame. You have to put the blame on the guilty, not the innocent.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[SivaGanesha 2]

gowlerk

No excuse, no reason can even begin to explain this act of terrorism. This is not an act of protest.

The police in this country have to stop murdering young black men. Period.

While what happened in Dallas tonight was wrong, the police in this country should be first and foremost apologizing for their role in murdering young black men and only secondarily focusing on their own losses.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[Bolas 5]

SivaGanesha

*** No excuse, no reason can even begin to explain this act of terrorism. This is not an act of protest.

The police in this country have to stop murdering young black men. Period.

While what happened in Dallas tonight was wrong, the police in this country should be first and foremost apologizing for their role in murdering young black men and only secondarily focusing on their own losses.

It's a socioeconomic issue, not race.
http://abc7.com/1416666/

When the police tell you to do something, do it, and do it slowly.

There will be time to argue legality of the charges/search/stop later.

Best case scenario for not obeying their instructions? Additional charges for resisting arrest.

We all know the worst case...

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Bolas 5]

SivaGanesha

While what happened in Dallas tonight was wrong, the police in this country should be first and foremost apologizing for their role in murdering young black men and only secondarily focusing on their own losses.

It's not just wrong, it's cold blooded murder.

Additionally, actions like this are just going to make police more likely to shoot someone for noncompliance of instructions given and possibly threatening actions.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[yoink 321]

SivaGanesha

*** No excuse, no reason can even begin to explain this act of terrorism. This is not an act of protest.

The police in this country have to stop murdering young black men. Period.

While what happened in Dallas tonight was wrong, the police in this country should be first and foremost apologizing for their role in murdering young black men and only secondarily focusing on their own losses.

I agree.

But two wrongs don't make a right. Shooting random police officers doesn't right the injustice.

By even making the statement 'The police in this country have to stop murdering young black men' in reference to this act, you're justifying it. They're getting their message out by murdering innocents.

It's unconscionable in every possible way. Everyone should be saying onlt that - no ifs, buts or 'reasons'.

[SivaGanesha 2]

Bolas

When the police tell you to do something, do it, and do it slowly...

This is the intelligent way to behave.

But stupid behavior on the part of a suspect is not a license for the police to commit murder.

If the police shoot and kill a stupid, but unarmed, suspect at the very least they need to be apologizing to the community. If the suspect is unarmed and the police shoot then the police are wrong. Period. If they were reaching into their pocket and the police thought they had a gun--and it turns out they didn't --then the police are in the wrong. And they must apologize and beg on hands and knees for the forgiveness of the suspect's mother.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[Coreeece 2]

Bolas

****** No excuse, no reason can even begin to explain this act of terrorism. This is not an act of protest.

The police in this country have to stop murdering young black men. Period.

While what happened in Dallas tonight was wrong, the police in this country should be first and foremost apologizing for their role in murdering young black men and only secondarily focusing on their own losses.

It's a socioeconomic issue, not race.

Tell that to Obama. He was already on the news talking about how blacks are 30% more likely to be arrested by police and how the numbers are disproportionate to whites blah blah blah, but he offers absolutely nothing in the way of leadership and unity to explain why that is. I tried to give this guy a benefit of a doubt, but I'm done. I'm just too sick of that divisive son of a bitch to care anymore. I can't wait till that hypocritical fucker is out of office - I don't care who takes his place.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[SivaGanesha 2]

yoink

I agree.

Since the protest was mostly peaceful we should be focusing primarily on the legitimate grievances of the protesters and only secondarily on the officers who died. In this particular case the officers may have been the innocent parties but we shouldn't allow this to distract us from the larger message: that the police have been behaving nationally in ways that are anything but innocent.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[gowlerk 1,924]

Quote

In this particular case the officers may have been the innocent parties but we shouldn't allow this to distract us from the larger message:

Are you kidding? There is no "but" here. Tonight several officers died, all were innocent. Just doing their jobs. They did nothing to deserve to die, and they died in service of their community.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[SivaGanesha 2]

gowlerk

Are you kidding? There is no "but" here. Tonight several officers died, all were innocent. Just doing their jobs. They did nothing to deserve to die, and they died in service of their community.

Rationally of course you are right.

But viscerally I just feel much more anger when the police shoot an unarmed suspect. Sorry but that is just how I feel at a deep visceral emotional level. No crime makes me as angry as the police killing of an unarmed person. Because the police are recognized authority figures I see the police killing of an unarmed person as the act of a bully. And I hate bullies more than anything else.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[Bolas 5]

SivaGanesha

***When the police tell you to do something, do it, and do it slowly...

This is the intelligent way to behave.

But stupid behavior on the part of a suspect is not a license for the police to commit murder.


Except they don't have a way to tell stupid behavior from threatening behavior in the milliseconds they have to decide until after-the-fact. Are you suggesting that police just assume any threatening behavior is just stupid behavior and take their chances?

Quote

If the police shoot and kill a stupid, but unarmed, suspect at the very least they need to be apologizing to the community. If the suspect is unarmed and the police shoot then the police are wrong. Period. If they were reaching into their pocket and the police thought they had a gun--and it turns out they didn't --then the police are in the wrong. And they must apologize and beg on hands and knees for the forgiveness of the suspect's mother.

The police should express their condolences to the community and the suspect's mother, however any apology would be more of a "sorry that it happened" with an explanation why they shot. If the investigation proves that the officer was following their procedures, they should not apologize for that.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Bolas 5]

SivaGanesha

***Are you kidding? There is no "but" here. Tonight several officers died, all were innocent. Just doing their jobs. They did nothing to deserve to die, and they died in service of their community.

Rationally of course you are right.

But viscerally I just feel much more anger when the police shoot an unarmed suspect. Sorry but that is just how I feel at a deep visceral emotional level. No crime makes me as angry as the police killing of an unarmed person.

You do realize this is the same rationality all terrorism supporters use, right?

Unarmed does not mean not dangerous.

Just out of curiosity, do you have any examples of the police shooting a suspect that was in full compliance with their instructions?

Any examples of the police shooting a suspect they knew was unarmed and not posing an immediate threat?

If yes for either, what was the outcome for the officers?

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[SivaGanesha 2]

Bolas

Are you suggesting that police just assume any threatening behavior is just stupid behavior and take their chances?

Until the suspect actually reveals a weapon, yes, that is precisely what I am saying.

As an ordinary civilian I don't get to kill someone just because they are fumbling around in their pockets in what I interpret as a threatening manner. Why should it be any different for a cop?

Now if the person actually does reveal a weapon then of course the cops can shoot in self defense.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[SivaGanesha 2]

Bolas

Just out of curiosity, do you have any examples of the police shooting a suspect that was in full compliance with their instructions?

I believe the mostly peaceful protesters tonight were protesting one or more such incidents.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[Bolas 5]

SivaGanesha

***Are you suggesting that police just assume any threatening behavior is just stupid behavior and take their chances?

Until the suspect actually reveals a weapon, yes, that is precisely what I am saying.

So any criminal that wants to shoot a cop just needs to keep their weapon hidden until they're ready to shoot or better yet, just shoot through their clothes.

Or if they want to attack a cop as long as they don't have a weapon that's fine.

Quote

As an ordinary civilian I don't get to kill someone just because they are fumbling around in their pockets in what I interpret as a threatening manner. Why should it be any different for a cop?

Now if the person actually does reveal a weapon then of course the cops can shoot in self defense.

As an ordinary citizen your job is not to investigate, search, detain, and arrest people.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Bolas 5]

SivaGanesha

***Just out of curiosity, do you have any examples of the police shooting a suspect that was in full compliance with their instructions?

I believe the mostly peaceful protesters tonight were protesting one or more such incidents.

Maybe these are different, but have yet to see any incident where the police just shot a person in full compliance.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[SivaGanesha 2]

Bolas

You do realize this is the same rationality all terrorism supporters use, right?

Also you are using a tactic that authority figures since 9/11 have tended to use to close off debate. And it stinks. You and the original poster are using the 'terrorism' label to cut off debate. On 9/11 America was indeed attacked by foreign terrorists. But that is not the current situation. We are currently dealing with a domestic situation involving Americans. Neither side has the right to kill each other. But both sides have the right to speak their minds. I recognize the 'terrorism' label for what it is: an attempt to silence free speech.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[SivaGanesha 2]

Bolas

Maybe these are different, but have yet to see any incident where the police just shot a person in full compliance.

In the case of Alton Sterling the police had him completely pinned to the ground --the police had complete control of the situation --and they still shot him. This doesn't justify the actions of the two non peaceful people tonight in Dallas. But there is a reason why people are angry at cops and I don't think the cops are sensitive enough to that.

"It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014

[CornishChris 5]

It is indeed a very dark time in the US. I am trying to understand it, from an outsiders perspective and I can't get past the guns.

We, the UK, are probably America's closest ally and in many ways we are very similar but in others we are very different and one of those is guns. Not only are the majority of the UK police not armed but there is an expectation that the populace is not either. Obviously sometimes this is wrong and for those occasions we have firearms squads who can be called. This works for us but obviously wouldn't in America. The assumption, it seems, is that in America civilians are assumed to be armed by the police until proven otherwise and so of course this makes the police more likely to shoot in either real or perceived self defense.

It is very hard to find the numbers for people killed by the police in the US as records don't seem to exist. I found the number for the UK. It was 54. Since 1920. They are all named on Wikipedia.

For the US it's harder, as I mentioned, to find a number. Wiki suggests that since 2000 it is 3,462 but the numbers seem strange as for 2000-2008 there was an average of 14 a year and then it ramped up enormously to over 300 per annum (avg). If wiki is to be believed then in the whole of the 20th century there were 91 killings by police. If these numbers are correct then there is a really startling issue that needs to be addressed and I have no idea how to even start. BTW - these numbers are low when compared to other stats I found. The Guardian has the count for 2015 at 1146, rather than the 391 on Wiki.

Flipping the coin the number of police killed in the line of duty (including accidents) in the UK since 2000 is 25 according to Wikipedia. Compare this to 2,282 in the US ( source).

This shows there obviously is a substantially greater threat to the lives of police in America than in the UK and this is largely down to guns. The police are afraid that suspects have them and so are more likely to shoot/kill the suspect. Suspects are more likely to be armed and shoot police so this fear is justified but obviously doesn't account for times like last week when someone is killed who is unarmed (one stat I found had about 25% of those killed being unarmed).

We look on in horror at the endless mass shootings in the US and its seeming inability to do anything about it, but that is just the tip of the blood soaked iceberg.

An armed society is a polite society, my arse!

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[Bolas 5]

SivaGanesha

***Maybe these are different, but have yet to see any incident where the police just shot a person in full compliance.

In the case of Alton Sterling the police had him completely pinned to the ground --the police had complete control of the situation --and they still shot him. This doesn't justify the actions of the two non peaceful people tonight in Dallas. But there is a reason why people are angry at cops and I don't think the cops are sensitive enough to that.

Just watched the videos but would not say they had complete control plus he was armed. Will need to wait until investigation is complete.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Boomerdog 0]

Quote

It sounds like two individuals are to blame. You have to put the blame on the guilty, not the innocent.

Agreed, but the press and perhaps someone here will find some angle to blame "those misogynistic christian conservatives" into the larger narrative. And let's not forget the NRA.

[RonD1120 58]

It is beginning, the SHTF is coming upon us. I believe I have mentioned this in the past.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[rushmc 18]

SivaGanesha

*** No excuse, no reason can even begin to explain this act of terrorism. This is not an act of protest.

The police in this country have to stop murdering young black men. Period.

While what happened in Dallas tonight was wrong, the police in this country should be first and foremost apologizing for their role in murdering young black men and only secondarily focusing on their own losses.

It saddens me to see the level of ignorance you post here

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln