Take OUT the Families of Terrorists?

[Phil1111 913]

Trump has suggested that "taking out" the families of terrorists would control the problem.

Europe | Memo From Moscow NY Times
Russia Shows What Happens When Terrorists’ Families Are Targeted
By ANDREW E. KRAMERMARCH 29, 2016

"MOSCOW — Donald J. Trump, the leading Republican presidential candidate, was widely condemned when he called for the United States to “take out the families” of terrorists.

His approach — even after he clarified that he was not talking about killing the relatives — was dismissed by many as immoral and unlawful. Yet, it is the very tactic that Russia has pursued for decades.

It is the signature, though officially unacknowledged, policy behind Moscow’s counterinsurgency and counterterrorism strategies, and Russia’s actions in smashing a Muslim separatist rebellion in the Caucasus provide a laboratory for testing Mr. Trump’s ideas.

The family ties that bind in terrorist groups came into focus last week after the police in Brussels disclosed that two of the three suicide bombers in the attacks there were brothers, Ibrahim and Khalid el-Bakraoui. All told, analysts estimate that a third of the participants in terrorist acts are related to another attacker.

In the conflict that began in Chechnya and has since metastasized into a loosely organized Islamic rebellion throughout the Caucasus region, Russian security services routinely arrest, torture and kill relatives, rights groups say.

The Russian approach, enough to make supporters of waterboarding wince, has by some accounts been grimly effective. Abductions of family members unwound the rebel leadership in Chechnya, for example.

And siblings have a bloody track record here, as elsewhere.

In 2004, Chechen sisters blew themselves up in an airplane and a subway station a week apart. In 2011, the police say, a teenager and his older sister from Ingushetia, another troubled region, helped build a bomb that their brother exploded in the unguarded arrivals hall of Domodedovo Airport in Moscow, killing himself and 36 other people.

In the Russian view, the family is the thread that needs to be pulled to unravel the terrorist group.

“He should understand his relatives will be treated as accomplices,” Kirill V. Kabanov, a member of President Vladimir V. Putin’s human rights council, said of a potential suicide attacker.

“When a person leaves to become a terrorist, he can kill hundreds of innocents,” he said. “Those are the morals we are talking about. We should understand, the relatives must fight this first. If the relative, before the fact, reported it, he is not guilty. If he did not, he is guilty.”

By law, Russian security services have no authority to specifically target relatives. But the intelligence forces seldom let a detail like the lack of a legal basis interfere with their activities.

In Chechnya and neighboring Dagestan, they routinely burn or demolish the houses of people suspected of being insurgents or terrorists. Most strikingly, whole extended families are rounded up in high-profile cases, and are often held until the militant either gives up or is killed.

Maryam Akmedova, from Kabardino-Balkaria region in the North Caucasus, has seen it firsthand. Distressing though it was, she says she understood when Russian prosecutors accused her eldest son of participating in a terrorist attack, as he had never denied his involvement.

But her woes hardly stopped there.

Soon enough, security agents were questioning her younger son, though there was no evidence linking him to the attack his brother was accused of in the city of Nalchik in 2005. Eventually, the younger brother was shot and killed in 2013 by Russian security forces during an attempted arrest under murky circumstances.

“He had no involvement with anything,” Ms. Akmedova said in a telephone interview. “They killed him because his brother was in prison.”

The most sweeping application of the tactic came during the pacification of Chechnya, after Mr. Putin engineered the recapture of the separatist territory early in his tenure.

Relatives were used as “hooks” to lure in militants. If the militant did not switch sides, the family member disappeared. Chechnya had about 3,000 to 5,000 unresolved disappearances from 2000 to 2005 or so. The policy, executed by the Chechen leader, Ramzan A. Kadyrov, the scion of a prominent Chechen family that itself switched sides, broke the organized resistance.

The Russian security services have also manipulated relatives for various ends, such as to inadvertently pass poisoned food to suspected militants on the run.

The practice, not surprisingly, has spawned dozens of cases in the European Court of Human Rights and widespread criticism of tactics that, while seemingly effective in the short term, have deeply alienated extended families whose members bear grudges to this day.

“There is systematic abuse of the family members of insurgents,” Ekaterina Sokirianskaia, an analyst at the International Crisis Group, and an expert on the Caucasus, said in a telephone interview.

“There can be short-term results, but I wouldn’t call it success,” she said. “You can prevent some episodes of violence at the moment, but you are radicalizing whole communities.”

“When innocent Muslims are targeted for the expediency of security services, this legitimizes the jihadist cause,” she said.

Ms. Akmedova explained how the sense of injustice and outrage develops. After her younger son was killed in 2013, she said, the police came by and told her and her son’s widow that the grandchildren, despite being in kindergarten and elementary school, would be put on watch lists.

“The children go to kindergarten,” Ms. Akmedova, 63, a retired drugstore clerk, said. “They are no different from any other children.”

In perhaps the highest-profile operation, Russian security services detained in 2004 several dozen members of the extended family of the Chechen rebel defense minister, Magomed Khambiyev, including the wives of his brothers. Aslanbek Khambiyev, a 19-year-old cousin with no known ties, other than familial, was abducted from a university, beaten semiconscious and shoved from a car in the rebel leader’s home village.

“Yes, they detained my relatives,” Magomed Khambiyev told the Kommersant newspaper after he surrendered to save their lives. “But they were guilty. Do you understand? Because they were my relatives.”

“If I’m a bandit, then they’re bandits, too,” he explained."
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/30/world/europe/russia-chechnya-caucasus-terrorists-families.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=second-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

[ibx 2]

I really don't know what to think of this. It goes against everything a democracy stands for. On the other hand, a mass murderer was able to hide for 4 months at home in Brussels. There must be some middle ground.

[winsor 187]

There was an apocryphal tale in the media when Americans were being kidnapped in Beirut during the '80s.

Apparently Hezbollah felt that they had achieved great success against major powers by kidnapping key people, and made off with a senior Soviet diplomat.

The next morning a high ranking Hezbollah player was found in a doorway with his genitalia stuffed in his mouth.

The diplomat was summarily released.

The Russians have the advantage in that they don't pretend to be 'the nice guys.' They're the Russians, and they really couldn't care less if they are loved. If you fuck with them, they will kill you and anyone who looks like you - any questions?


BSBD,

Winsor

[SkyDekker 1,130]

winsor

There was an apocryphal tale in the media when Americans were being kidnapped in Beirut during the '80s.

Apparently Hezbollah felt that they had achieved great success against major powers by kidnapping key people, and made off with a senior Soviet diplomat.

The next morning a high ranking Hezbollah player was found in a doorway with his genitalia stuffed in his mouth.

The diplomat was summarily released.

The Russians have the advantage in that they don't pretend to be 'the nice guys.' They're the Russians, and they really couldn't care less if they are loved. If you fuck with them, they will kill you and anyone who looks like you - any questions?


BSBD,

Winsor

Right and this is a good thing?

[winsor 187]

SkyDekker

***There was an apocryphal tale in the media when Americans were being kidnapped in Beirut during the '80s.

Apparently Hezbollah felt that they had achieved great success against major powers by kidnapping key people, and made off with a senior Soviet diplomat.

The next morning a high ranking Hezbollah player was found in a doorway with his genitalia stuffed in his mouth.

The diplomat was summarily released.

The Russians have the advantage in that they don't pretend to be 'the nice guys.' They're the Russians, and they really couldn't care less if they are loved. If you fuck with them, they will kill you and anyone who looks like you - any questions?


BSBD,

Winsor

Right and this is a good thing?

Nope, it's a Russian thing.

The Soviet Union was interesting, but I do not recall ever thinking "gee, what a wonderful place! I sure would like to live here..."

For the record, I am not a big fan of our policy of bringing Truth, Justice and the American Way to other countries, whether they like it or not. I do not think that the solution to going to other people's countries and acting like American assholes is to go there and act like Russian assholes. The Russians have that role covered, anyway.


BSBD,

Winsor

[SkyDekker 1,130]

Thanks for the clarification and I agree.

[rehmwa 2]

Phil1111

Trump has suggested that "taking out" the families of terrorists would control the problem.

clearly they mean 'take them out to dinner' and establish a rapport with them so they see we all are pretty much the same

what else could it mean? going after someone's family (as an example, as leverage, as hostage) might make a nice feeling short term meme that Facebook fans could exploit for likes from those that agree and disagree alike, but it's really counterproductive and will create more terrorists that now are angry on a personal level in addition to the already fanatically religious level.

short term gratification that actually results in long term serious issues seems to be the standard ploy of politicians everywhere - Makes one wonder about the attention span of today's voters.....next thing you know, some politician will try to offer a ton of free stuff that the economy can't handle just to get into office, or offer to build a wall, or blame an inanimate object as a dumbed down substitute for cultural/family degradation....or something else silly

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[normiss 622]

Trump suggests a lot of things, some not so much, oh wait, yes.
WTF???

[SkyDekker 1,130]

The fact this guy is a front runner is a disgrace.

[JerryBaumchen 1,050]

Hi Sky,

Quote

The fact this guy is a front runner is a disgrace.

I'm putting that in for Understatement of the Week; and we are only at Wed.



Jerry Baumchen

[funjumper101 15]

Trump has been extremely effective at showing the true character of what the modern Republican party is all about.

In great detail, the true colors have been revealed.

He clearly loves the USA. Exposing the Republicans true values, he succeeded in running off those candidates that might fool the general public like Shrub did. All that are left are unelectable in a General election, including Trump himself. Trump know that the only hope for the USA is to get the federal government back in the hands of the adult party that always has to fix the disasters wrought by the Republican operatives.

The USA's general population can't survive another Republican administration.
The last two Republican administrations fucked thing up so badly the effects will be felt for generations, especially in the mid-east. ISIS is a direct result of the invasion/occupation of Iraq. Shrub wouldn't have ginned up an excuse to go into Iraq if Saddam hadn't threatened to kill Poppy. The destruction of the world economy wasn't part of the plan, just collateral damage.

Thank you Donald. A real patriot, even though is he a low life maggot in real life.

[turtlespeed 212]

funjumper101

Trump has been extremely effective at showing the true character of what the modern Republican party is all about.

In great detail, the true colors have been revealed.

He clearly loves the USA. Exposing the Republicans true values, he succeeded in running off those candidates that might fool the general public like Shrub did. All that are left are unelectable in a General election, including Trump himself. Trump know that the only hope for the USA is to get the federal government back in the hands of the adult party that always has to fix the disasters wrought by the Republican operatives.

The USA's general population can't survive another Republican administration.
The last two Republican administrations fucked thing up so badly the effects will be felt for generations, especially in the mid-east. ISIS is a direct result of the invasion/occupation of Iraq. Shrub wouldn't have ginned up an excuse to go into Iraq if Saddam hadn't threatened to kill Poppy. The destruction of the world economy wasn't part of the plan, just collateral damage.

Thank you Donald. A real patriot, even though is he a low life maggot in real life.

How does a shrub do anything but grow and/or die? Or did you have a specific person in mind? Who is Shrub?

Why do people use such juvenile words?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[funjumper101 15]

Shrub = small tree , aka, Bush.

Shrub, when referring to dubya, is an intentional perjorative.

Considering that he and his administration is directly responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths, millions of displaced people, and has yet to be arrested for his war crimes, calling him Shrub is mild, compared to what he deserves.

I hope that the next Administration has the courage to arrest him and Darth Cheney and send them off to the Hague for trial. Those bastards need to go on trial, along with the CIA operatives and the contractors that violated the Geneva conventions by torturing prisoners.

Why is the rule of law so trivial to Conservatives? In theory, that is one of their key values.

[turtlespeed 212]

funjumper101

Shrub = small tree , aka, Bush.

Shrub, when referring to dubya, is an intentional perjorative.

Considering that he and his administration is directly responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths, millions of displaced people, and has yet to be arrested for his war crimes, calling him Shrub is mild, compared to what he deserves.

I hope that the next Administration has the courage to arrest him and Darth Cheney and send them off to the Hague for trial. Those bastards need to go on trial, along with the CIA operatives and the contractors that violated the Geneva conventions by torturing prisoners.

Why is the rule of law so trivial to Conservatives? In theory, that is one of their key values.

Just can't help shooting off childish bullshit can you?
It's a shame what the younger generation has let themselves become.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[SkyDekker 1,130]

turtlespeed

***Shrub = small tree , aka, Bush.

Shrub, when referring to dubya, is an intentional perjorative.

Considering that he and his administration is directly responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths, millions of displaced people, and has yet to be arrested for his war crimes, calling him Shrub is mild, compared to what he deserves.

I hope that the next Administration has the courage to arrest him and Darth Cheney and send them off to the Hague for trial. Those bastards need to go on trial, along with the CIA operatives and the contractors that violated the Geneva conventions by torturing prisoners.

Why is the rule of law so trivial to Conservatives? In theory, that is one of their key values.

Just can't help shooting off childish bullshit can you?
It's a shame what the younger generation has let themselves become.

True, Trump has been setting such a great example and with millions thinking he is the best candidate to be President of the United States of America, he is quite the role model.

[turtlespeed 212]

SkyDekker

******Shrub = small tree , aka, Bush.

Shrub, when referring to dubya, is an intentional perjorative.

Considering that he and his administration is directly responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths, millions of displaced people, and has yet to be arrested for his war crimes, calling him Shrub is mild, compared to what he deserves.

I hope that the next Administration has the courage to arrest him and Darth Cheney and send them off to the Hague for trial. Those bastards need to go on trial, along with the CIA operatives and the contractors that violated the Geneva conventions by torturing prisoners.

Why is the rule of law so trivial to Conservatives? In theory, that is one of their key values.

Just can't help shooting off childish bullshit can you?
It's a shame what the younger generation has let themselves become.

True, Trump has been setting such a great example and with millions thinking he is the best candidate to be President of the United States of America, he is quite the role model.

Yeah.. He's the best of the worst.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[nolhtairt 0]

turtlespeed

*********Shrub = small tree , aka, Bush.

Shrub, when referring to dubya, is an intentional perjorative.

Considering that he and his administration is directly responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths, millions of displaced people, and has yet to be arrested for his war crimes, calling him Shrub is mild, compared to what he deserves.

I hope that the next Administration has the courage to arrest him and Darth Cheney and send them off to the Hague for trial. Those bastards need to go on trial, along with the CIA operatives and the contractors that violated the Geneva conventions by torturing prisoners.

Why is the rule of law so trivial to Conservatives? In theory, that is one of their key values.

Just can't help shooting off childish bullshit can you?
It's a shame what the younger generation has let themselves become.

True, Trump has been setting such a great example and with millions thinking he is the best candidate to be President of the United States of America, he is quite the role model.

Yeah.. He's the best of the worst.

And he's gone and done it again... Made an exception to his statement about banning Muslims from entering the U.S. by saying he would let "rich Muslims" in.

[turtlespeed 212]

nolhtairt

************Shrub = small tree , aka, Bush.

Shrub, when referring to dubya, is an intentional perjorative.

Considering that he and his administration is directly responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths, millions of displaced people, and has yet to be arrested for his war crimes, calling him Shrub is mild, compared to what he deserves.

I hope that the next Administration has the courage to arrest him and Darth Cheney and send them off to the Hague for trial. Those bastards need to go on trial, along with the CIA operatives and the contractors that violated the Geneva conventions by torturing prisoners.

Why is the rule of law so trivial to Conservatives? In theory, that is one of their key values.

Just can't help shooting off childish bullshit can you?
It's a shame what the younger generation has let themselves become.

True, Trump has been setting such a great example and with millions thinking he is the best candidate to be President of the United States of America, he is quite the role model.

Yeah.. He's the best of the worst.

And he's gone and done it again... Made an exception to his statement about banning Muslims from entering the U.S. by saying he would let "rich Muslims" in.

Next - he'll justify that only poor Muslims make good suicide bombers and pilots that run themselves into buildings.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[kallend 1,635]

turtlespeed

***Shrub = small tree , aka, Bush.

Shrub, when referring to dubya, is an intentional perjorative.

Considering that he and his administration is directly responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths, millions of displaced people, and has yet to be arrested for his war crimes, calling him Shrub is mild, compared to what he deserves.

I hope that the next Administration has the courage to arrest him and Darth Cheney and send them off to the Hague for trial. Those bastards need to go on trial, along with the CIA operatives and the contractors that violated the Geneva conventions by torturing prisoners.

Why is the rule of law so trivial to Conservatives? In theory, that is one of their key values.

Just can't help shooting off childish bullshit can you?


Irony score 100/100

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Phil1111 913]

nolhtairt

************Shrub = small tree , aka, Bush.

Shrub, when referring to dubya, is an intentional perjorative.

Considering that he and his administration is directly responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths, millions of displaced people, and has yet to be arrested for his war crimes, calling him Shrub is mild, compared to what he deserves.

I hope that the next Administration has the courage to arrest him and Darth Cheney and send them off to the Hague for trial. Those bastards need to go on trial, along with the CIA operatives and the contractors that violated the Geneva conventions by torturing prisoners.

Why is the rule of law so trivial to Conservatives? In theory, that is one of their key values.

Just can't help shooting off childish bullshit can you?
It's a shame what the younger generation has let themselves become.

True, Trump has been setting such a great example and with millions thinking he is the best candidate to be President of the United States of America, he is quite the role model.

Yeah.. He's the best of the worst.

And he's gone and done it again... Made an exception to his statement about banning Muslims from entering the U.S. by saying he would let "rich Muslims" in.

" WikiLeaks cables portray Saudi Arabia as a cash machine for terrorists
Hillary Clinton memo highlights Gulf states' failure to block funding for groups like al-Qaida, Taliban and Lashkar-e-Taiba

Saudi Arabia is the world's largest source of funds for Islamist militant groups such as the Afghan Taliban and Lashkar-e-Taiba – but the Saudi government is reluctant to stem the flow of money, according to Hillary Clinton.

"More needs to be done since Saudi Arabia remains a critical financial support base for al-Qaida, the Taliban, LeT and other terrorist groups," says a secret December 2009 paper signed by the US secretary of state. Her memo urged US diplomats to redouble their efforts to stop Gulf money reaching extremists in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

"Donors in Saudi Arabia constitute the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide," she said.

Three other Arab countries are listed as sources of militant money: Qatar, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates.

The cables highlight an often ignored factor in the Pakistani and Afghan conflicts: that the violence is partly bankrolled by rich, conservative donors across the Arabian Sea whose governments do little to stop them.

The problem is particularly acute in Saudi Arabia, where militants soliciting funds slip into the country disguised as holy pilgrims, set up front companies to launder funds and receive money from government-sanctioned charities.

One cable details how the Pakistani militant outfit Lashkar-e-Taiba, which carried out the 2008 Mumbai attacks, used a Saudi-based front company to fund its activities in 2005.

Meanwhile officials with the LeT's charity wing, Jamaat-ud-Dawa, travelled to Saudi Arabia seeking donations for new schools at vastly inflated costs – then siphoned off the excess money to fund militant operations.

Militants seeking donations often come during the hajj pilgrimage – "a major security loophole since pilgrims often travel with large amounts of cash and the Saudis cannot refuse them entry into Saudi Arabia". Even a small donation can go far: LeT operates on a budget of just $5.25m (£3.25m) a year, according to American estimates.

Saudi officials are often painted as reluctant partners. Clinton complained of the "ongoing challenge to persuade Saudi officials to treat terrorist funds emanating from Saudi Arabia as a strategic priority".

Washington is critical of the Saudi refusal to ban three charities classified as terrorist entities in the US. "Intelligence suggests that these groups continue to send money overseas and, at times, fund extremism overseas," she said.

There has been some progress. This year US officials reported that al-Qaida's fundraising ability had "deteriorated substantially" since a government crackdown. As a result Bin Laden's group was "in its weakest state since 9/11" in Saudi Arabia.

Any criticisms are generally offered in private. The cables show that when it comes to powerful oil-rich allies US diplomats save their concerns for closed-door talks, in stark contrast to the often pointed criticism meted out to allies in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Instead, officials at the Riyadh embassy worry about protecting Saudi oilfields from al-Qaida attacks.

The other major headache for the US in the Gulf region is the United Arab Emirates. The Afghan Taliban and their militant partners the Haqqani network earn "significant funds" through UAE-based businesses, according to one report. The Taliban extort money from the large Pashtun community in the UAE, which is home to 1 million Pakistanis and 150,000 Afghans. They also fundraise by kidnapping Pashtun businessmen based in Dubai or their relatives.

"Some Afghan businessmen in the UAE have resorted to purchasing tickets on the day of travel to limit the chance of being kidnapped themselves upon arrival in either Afghanistan or Pakistan," the report says.

Last January US intelligence sources said two senior Taliban fundraisers had regularly travelled to the UAE, where the Taliban and Haqqani networks laundered money through local front companies.

One report singled out a Kabul-based "Haqqani facilitator", Haji Khalil Zadran, as a key figure. But, Clinton complained, it was hard to be sure: the UAE's weak financial regulation and porous borders left US investigators with "limited information" on the identity of Taliban and LeT facilitators.

The lack of border controls was "exploited by Taliban couriers and Afghan drug lords camouflaged among traders, businessmen and migrant workers", she said.

In an effort to stem the flow of funds American and UAE officials are increasingly co-operating to catch the "cash couriers" – smugglers who fly giant sums of money into Pakistan and Afghanistan.

In common with its neighbours Kuwait is described as a "source of funds and a key transit point" for al-Qaida and other militant groups. While the government has acted against attacks on its own soil, it is "less inclined to take action against Kuwait-based financiers and facilitators plotting attacks outside of Kuwait".

Kuwait has refused to ban the Revival of Islamic Heritage Society, a charity the US designated a terrorist entity in June 2008 for providing aid to al-Qaida and affiliated groups, including LeT.

There is little information about militant fundraising in the fourth Gulf country singled out, Qatar, other than to say its "overall level of CT co-operation with the US is considered the worst in the region".

The funding quagmire extends to Pakistan itself, where the US cables detail sharp criticism of the government's ambivalence towards funding of militant groups that enjoy covert military support.

The cables show how before the Mumbai attacks in 2008, Pakistani and Chinese diplomats manoeuvred hard to block UN sanctions against Jamaat-ud-Dawa.

But in August 2009, nine months after sanctions were finally imposed, US diplomats wrote: "We continue to see reporting indicating that JUD is still operating in multiple locations in Pakistan and that the group continues to openly raise funds". JUD denies it is the charity wing of LeT.

• This article was amended on 15 December 2010. The original caption referred to the Chatrapathi Sivaji station in Mumbai. This has been corrected."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/05/wikileaks-cables-saudi-terrorist-funding

"5–The Bin Laden Family, $7 billion.
The Saudi Bin Laden Group towers over the Middle East construction business through its Saudi Bin Laden Group. Its Dubai arm is building two new cities in Djibouti and Yemen, along with a bridge to connect them. The company has also started forging ties to China. The company’s founder, Mohammed Bin Laden, left 54 sons and daughters from several marriages. Thirteen of his sons sit on the board of the family’s business—the most prominent being Baker, Hassan, Islam and Yehya. Baker, Mohammed’s second son, is now head of the company."
http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2009/08/31/the-five-richest-saudis/

[SkyDekker 1,130]

Yup, house of Saud is pretty awful, even when the president holds their hand when on leisure walk. Or lets them fly their private jets over the US when all other GA traffic has been grounded.

This has all been known for quite some time and with various presidents in office both R and D.

The house of Saud has the US by the balls, getting distance in between both parties would be very painful.

[funjumper101 15]

turtlespeed

***Shrub = small tree , aka, Bush.

Shrub, when referring to dubya, is an intentional perjorative.

Considering that he and his administration is directly responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths, millions of displaced people, and has yet to be arrested for his war crimes, calling him Shrub is mild, compared to what he deserves.

I hope that the next Administration has the courage to arrest him and Darth Cheney and send them off to the Hague for trial. Those bastards need to go on trial, along with the CIA operatives and the contractors that violated the Geneva conventions by torturing prisoners.

Why is the rule of law so trivial to Conservatives? In theory, that is one of their key values.

Just can't help shooting off childish bullshit can you?
It's a shame what the younger generation has let themselves become.

The stench of turtleshit is strong. The ignorance and inability to correctly interpret available information produces an awful result.

Younger generation? Young people are not capable of reading history books and understanding the content? That is certainly correct for those that are conservative.

I did my first static line jump in 1983. I did NOT vote for Ronnie the senile idiot. I did watch in horror as his administration fucked everything up. All of the Republican administrations have continued the hallowed tradition established by that useless piece of trash.

[riggerrob 558]

OP
Killing family members of terrorists ...... mmmm ...... this might explain why so many South Americans mysteriously disappeared during the "dirty wars" in Argentina, Chile, etc.

We have to wonder if Rusdian tactics differ significantly from the Taliban practice of bombing weddings of their political rivals .... the USAF practice of bombing Taliban weddings ...... etc.??????

Associate with terrorists and die like terrorists .....