Donald Trump Versus Hillary Clinton

[jakee 1,257]

Coreeece

***

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I don't see anyone in this forum advocating the death of all muslims. What I do see however are people expressing concern for border security and how to handle the very real threat of terrorism - but they are dismissed as paranoid and told that they shouldn't be so concerned - that toddlers with guns are more of a threat than terrorism - it's ridiculous.

If that's all you see then you're walking around with a pretty sizeable set of blinders on. You seem to be determined to stick to that narrative no matter what though so I don't think there's any point explaining (again) why the xenophobes are xenophobic.

...but you're missing the moral of the whole story - that if people are gonna scare themselves shitless over some fictive that Trump and his supporters somehow represent a new age Nazi-like regime, then IMO, you pretty much lose the fucking right to call someone else out on their paranoia.

Sure. If those people existed.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,257]

Coreeece

If they can find nothing wrong, they just say, "you have a message of hate!" - and then just stomp off, hoping that the label sticks to the worldview of the poster.

Oh FFS!

You can't accuse people of hypocrisy in one post and then criticize someone for pointing out Ron's 'peace and love' hypocrisy in the next. Ron has no interest in forgiving anyone of any infraction against him or his people and he has no interest in making the slightest compromise for the sake of the 'unity' he keeps bleating on about. I know that, because I asked him. The only way that Ron wants the nation to unite is by everyone else uniting in the realisation that him, Glenn Beck and the Tea Party were right all along.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Coreeece 2]

jakee

******

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I don't see anyone in this forum advocating the death of all muslims. What I do see however are people expressing concern for border security and how to handle the very real threat of terrorism - but they are dismissed as paranoid and told that they shouldn't be so concerned - that toddlers with guns are more of a threat than terrorism - it's ridiculous.

If that's all you see then you're walking around with a pretty sizeable set of blinders on. You seem to be determined to stick to that narrative no matter what though so I don't think there's any point explaining (again) why the xenophobes are xenophobic.

...but you're missing the moral of the whole story - that if people are gonna scare themselves shitless over some fictive that Trump and his supporters somehow represent a new age Nazi-like regime, then IMO, you pretty much lose the fucking right to call someone else out on their paranoia.

Sure. If those people existed.

Pretty sizeable blinders you got there. . .

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[gowlerk 1,915]

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but you lose 90% of the readers when you say we need a disaster, and then you lose 99% when you quote scripture....

There is a good reason for that. When you quote scripture it is nearly meaningless. All it shows is that you know the Bible well enough to find something relevant to your post. We all know that the Bible can be quoted to support any position at all.

Everyone from the sainted to the damned can find something in scripture to back them up. If you want to be taken seriously, you can appeal to emotion, as you well know. Or logic, which at least some will consider.

Cherry pick a verse from the Bible? Well.... we may as well throw snowballs at each other. From our respective cities or enclaves. The Bible is a road map to living life alright. Any kind of life you care to read into it.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[jakee 1,257]

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Pretty sizeable blinders you got there. . .

Nope. You're vastly exaggerating the points of view that have been expressed here to create a false equivalence. You're also still missing the point that being worried about Trump because of the stuff Trump has said he wants to do is not the same as being worried about all muslims because of what Isis have said they want to do.

Don't get me wrong - you're closer on this one than on your attempted defense of Ron, but you're still wide of the mark.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rehmwa 2]

gowlerk

There is a good reason for that. When you quote scripture it is nearly meaningless.

It may or may not be meaningful, problem for me is when the quoting starts, my ears just shut off

For me it's threefold:

1 - I'm agnostic, so quoting scripture does about as much for me as when some douche says "nuff said" or some other platitude. Only if the actual words of the scripture apply in a clever way would it matter - but I'm guilty of just ignoring it because it is just quoting something - see 2 below

2 - resorting to quoting something also weakens another's argument with me. quoting music lyrics (arrggh), scriptures, etc etc etc - indicates (to me) that the person doesn't understand their positions strongly enough to use their own words and they are a follower, rather than a thinker. YMMV (I know there is disagreement here for some - no issue, this is how I see it)

3 - Typically when someone is quoting scripture, it only reinforces their argument with people that already agree with them. So I end up just assuming that they aren't interested in debate and discussion, rather they are just interested in self-reinforcement. Of course, this is likely true of most discussion gambits, not just scripture, lots of just regurgitating what one thinks their friends will nod seriously at.....

I might be unfair in these assessments, but it's the way I take it.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[GTAVercetti 0]

rehmwa

***There is a good reason for that. When you quote scripture it is nearly meaningless.

It may or may not be meaningful, problem for me is when the quoting starts, my ears just shut off

For me it's threefold:

1 - I'm agnostic, so quoting scripture does about as much for me as when some douche says "nuff said" or some other platitude. Only if the actual words of the scripture apply in a clever way would it matter - but I'm guilty of just ignoring it because it is just quoting something - see 2 below

2 - resorting to quoting something also weakens another's argument with me. quoting music lyrics (arrggh), scriptures, etc etc etc - indicates (to me) that the person doesn't understand their positions strongly enough to use their own words and they are a follower, rather than a thinker. YMMV (I know there is disagreement here for some - no issue, this is how I see it)

3 - Typically when someone is quoting scripture, it only reinforces their argument with people that already agree with them. So I end up just assuming that they aren't interested in debate and discussion, rather they are just interested in self-reinforcement. Of course, this is likely true of most discussion gambits, not just scripture, lots of just regurgitating what one thinks their friends will nod seriously at.....

I might be unfair in these assessments, but it's the way I take it.

Years later, still one of my favorite posters.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[TriGirl 277]

normiss

I'm confused more and more every day on how anybody on the planet would want a douche nozzle like this in ANY office.

I've heard two different political operatives on two different shows (one on Bill Maher, the other on NPR) say that they don't think Trump really will do what he says. They both offered "interpretations" of his more outlandish proclamations. For example, when he says he wants to build a wall on our Southern border, the first said she didn't think he meant a physical wall, all the way across. She thought it would be more like a barrier, with capabilities to have "eyes on" the whole border at any time.

I can't remember exactly the example the other gave, but I was definitely shaking my head during my drive to work as I heard a second political operative specifically say, "well, I don't believe he'd actually do that."

What are these supposed professionals going to say when he gets elected, and does exactly what he said he would do, and now they as his staffers have to answer for their complicity or support in getting him elected?

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[gowlerk 1,915]

So much of what he says he will do is very obviously not possible. Which brings up the two biggest problems I see with a Trump Presidency. First he is the biggest fattest liar among all the big fat liars. And second, if he can't do what he says, just what WILL he try to do? A complete black box. I've got no real idea at all.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[kallend 1,635]

SethInMI

***
TDS found a line in a Michael Douglas movie that Cruz apparently plagiarized: http://www.cc.com/full-episodes/kuy9wr/the-daily-show-with-trevor-noah-march-23--2016---lindsey-graham-season-21-ep-21083

oh that was rich.

The Lindsey Graham interview was great too!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[christelsabine 1]

gowlerk

So much of what he says he will do is very obviously not possible. Which brings up the two biggest problems I see with a Trump Presidency. First he is the biggest fattest liar among all the big fat liars. And second, if he can't do what he says, just what WILL he try to do? A complete black box. I've got no real idea at all.

Well, just a wild guess: He surely will not try anything, he will have some more lies handy, including scapegoat/s. His followers will cheer him, what else?

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[wolfriverjoe 1,346]

RonD1120

...Those days are gone. Socialism is killing the American spirit. People feel the desperation. Obamacare, Islamic terrorism and social unrest are threatening us. No one is providing protective leadership.

Trump appeals to our emotions and it does not matter what he says. He acts tough and that is all that is recognized...

Ron's got it pretty close.

The "desperation" however, is manufactured.

The Rs have fed into the fears and hatred of the blue collar conservatives for the past 7 years (well, for a lot longer than that, but really hard the last 7 years).

They didn't come right out and say it, but they made sure any possible increase in legal immigration or legalizing those here illegally failed miserably ("amnesty" anyone?).

They fed people the "death panel" lie about Obamacare (like the insurance companies didn't already make those kind of decisions).

They feel squeezed out as the good blue collar jobs go overseas. They feel forced to accept things they used to be able to make "invisible" (minorities, gays, that sort of thing). They still have a better standard of living than somewhere well above 90% of the rest of the world, but that doesn't matter. They are afraid they will lose what they have.

So along comes Trump. He starts off as a typical "Not Professional Politician" and does about as well as they usually do.

But he's a damned good salesman (not businessman, salesman) and he realizes exactly what that type of person wants to hear.

So he says "Mexicans are Rapists", "No more Muslim Immigrants", "Build a Wall & Make Mexico Pay for It", and the most ridiculous, "Make America Great Again" (making America great is ridiculous, it's just that he says this and nothing else about what will be changed or how).

And the scared and indignant sheep buy it. Hook, line and sinker.

They think "he's one of us", when he isn't. They make up shit about him, shit like "Trump is 100% behind the 2nd Amendment" when he's on record in favor of the AWB.

This sort of "hero worship" is dangerous.

Demagogues like this are dangerous.

He feeds on the adulation, then tells them more of what they want to hear, without any real substance. And the cycle builds.

Assuming he gets elected (and that's admittedly a stretch), what would happen if he "suggested" that armed citizens form "posses" and start rounding up illegal immigrants? (they could all wear khaki shirts. A red armband with a white circle with a large black "T" would be a nice accessory).

DanG said that Trump scared him, not his supporters.

Both scare me rather badly. Because I know what has happened historically when this sort of thing gets going.

I'm a white male. Unless Trump starts going after Gingers, I'm safe. At least from the direct threat. But the fallout and chaos and aftermath of what might happen will be rather messy. Nobody will be fully safe from that...

Except maybe people like Ron, safe in his retreat. Ironic, isn't it?

And someone asked why Trump was scarier than Muslim terrorists. After all, the "MTs" had killed thousands.

Well, yeah. 3k in one very successful attack. Other than that, how many in the US in, say, the last 25 years? Less than 100.
How many skydivers went in in the same time frame? (guessing around 600).
How many traffic fatalities? Try around 750k (about three quarters of a million)

Terrorism isn't really on my list of stuff I'm worried about. I'm far more concerned about some idiot taking me out when I'm on my motorcycle.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Coreeece 2]

jakee

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Pretty sizeable blinders you got there. . .

Nope. You're vastly exaggerating the points of view that have been expressed here

My patience must've grown a bit too thin for all the godwinian weasel words that had been expressed in here recently.

If the viewpoint in question was initially articulated as accurately as you explained in post #283 describing Trump as a populist using every demagogic trick from the national socialist playbook, then we probably wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[Coreeece 2]

wolfriverjoe

And someone asked why Trump was scarier than Muslim terrorists. After all, the "MTs" had killed thousands.

Well, yeah. 3k in one very successful attack. Other than that, how many in the US in, say, the last 25 years? Less than 100.
How many skydivers went in in the same time frame? (guessing around 600).
How many traffic fatalities? Try around 750k (about three quarters of a million)

Terrorism isn't really on my list of stuff I'm worried about. I'm far more concerned about some idiot taking me out when I'm on my motorcycle.

Your apathy does not negate the real fear that others may have regarding the issue, nor the action needed to relieve it.

Skydiving and traffic fatalities are risks we are willing to accept. They are accidents - and the yearly averages are rather predictable.

Terrorism is deliberate, not an accident. It is unpredictable and can affect any number of people, at any time, anywhere in the world without discrimination. It's a fucking cancer - and we're not willing to accept it.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[gowlerk 1,915]

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Terrorism is deliberate, not an accident.

It is. What is the goal of the terrorists? The real danger is that we help them achieve it. Like GWB and the neo-cons did.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Croc 0]

kallend

***Belgium is hurting today because of Hillary's decision to support the Iraq war.

That is a bit of a stretch. The CinC who LIED to Congress about the intel and who ordered the invasion was GWB. The Secretary of State who lied to the UN was Colin Powell.

There is no reason to believe Colin Powell lied to anyone. He stated what he thought was the truth. He resigned when he realized he had been duped.

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

[kallend 1,635]

Croc

******Belgium is hurting today because of Hillary's decision to support the Iraq war.

That is a bit of a stretch. The CinC who LIED to Congress about the intel and who ordered the invasion was GWB. The Secretary of State who lied to the UN was Colin Powell.

There is no reason to believe Colin Powell lied to anyone. He stated what he thought was the truth. He resigned when he realized he had been duped.

Only a stupid person would be duped by that stuff, and Powell isn't stupid. The cabinet had been told by the CIA that the "intel" was unreliable but used it anyway.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Coreeece 2]

gowlerk

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Terrorism is deliberate, not an accident.

It is. What is the goal of the terrorists? The real danger is that we help them achieve it. Like GWB and the neo-cons did.

A long while back, billvon suggested better defense.

"A stronger military here at home. Better borders. Better security on rails and in port. Better satellite surveillance."

Today, words like "borders" and "surveillance" are enough to label one as paranoid and/or xenaphobic. . .

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[gowlerk 1,915]

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Better borders. Better security on rails and in port. Better satellite surveillance."

Speaking as someone who makes his living hauling freight across your northern border I can assure you the better security is in place. Far better than before 9/11.

The current talk about borders is not about terrorism though. It's about immigration. I don't think any of the terrorists arrested within the US sneaked into the country. They were either born in the USA, or they came knocking on the front door for admittance.

But the terrorists have succeeded at least partly in the USA. They have caused many to act like they are terrified. And they have provoked a reaction that drives a wedge between east and west.

The western world in general, and America in particular could have played their cards much smarter. What started as a band of criminals has managed to get the west to escalate the scene into a "war". A war with no borders and no state actors. So far.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Coreeece 2]

gowlerk

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Better borders. Better security on rails and in port. Better satellite surveillance."

Speaking as someone who makes his living hauling freight across your northern border I can assure you the better security is in place. Far better than before 9/11.

Ya, back in college we could bounce back n' forth freely across the bridge/tunnel as drunk as we wanted - not anymore - the terrorist have won!

gowlerk

The current talk about borders is not about terrorism though. It's about immigration. I don't think any of the terrorists arrested within the US sneaked into the country.

Back in 2011 the Obama admin practically halted all middle eastern immigration after Iraqi operatives snuck in through the refugee program. Cries of paranoia and xenophobia only ensued when conservative Christians called for a similar suspension in 2015.

gowlerk

But the terrorists have succeeded at least partly in the USA. They have caused many to act like they are terrified.

Ya, because bombing shit and flying planes into buildings is fucking terrifying.

gowlerk

The western world in general, and America in particular could have played their cards much smarter

Sure, but people forget that 911 happened before the fall of Saddam and the destabilization of the middle-east - it could've very well persisted any witch way.

Ultimately it was the fault of the Obama/Hillary admin for pulling out and creating the vacuum. She's already proved herself to be incompetent and powerless.

Vote for that? - Never. She had her chance to change the world and fucking blew it.

Now it's time for Bushmills mode:
Hey You!

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[jakee 1,257]

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Sure, but people forget that 911 happened before the fall of Saddam and the destabilization of the middle-east - it could've very well persisted any witch way.

Al Qaeda wasn't in Iraq, and had pretty much bugger all to do with Saddam. Al Qaeda was largely in Afghanistan (and Peshawar). The war in Afghanistan crippled Al Qaeda, could (and should) have had a huge positive effect on the people living there, liberating them from a psychotic regime similar to Isis occupied areas today and didn't seem to be generating much anti-western sentiment.

Except we fucked it every which way by going into Iraq. The theft of troops and resources from Afghanistan was criminal. It turned what should have been a period of consolidation, rebuilding and strengthening a new Afghan government into a 15 year civil war we had no way of winning - and if you care about lives lost to Islamic terrorism you better believe it cost a lot of lives.

And BTW, 'before the destabilization'? You mean, before the current destabilization. Israel, Suez, the Shah, the Mujaheddin, Iranian embargoes, Iraqi embargoes, Gulf 1... the west has been fucking and fucking and fucking with that part of the world beyond the scope of living memory and have we ever done anything that's made it better? No, because we're selfish bastards and we're doing it all for our own benefit. That's the prism we get viewed through by pretty much the entire middle eastern population when we get involved there.

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Ultimately it was the fault of the Obama/Hillary admin for pulling out and creating the vacuum. She's already proved herself to be incompetent and powerless.

A) GWBs timeline. It was his 'masterplan'.

B) If we still had 2008 troop levels in Iraq right now would you be praising Obama and Clinton for their strength and effectiveness? Pull the other one.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Coreeece 2]

jakee

A) GWBs timeline. It was his 'masterplan'.

Ya, well he wasn't the fucking president at the time, was he?

jakee

B) If we still had 2008 troop levels in Iraq right now would you be praising Obama and Clinton for their strength and effectiveness?.

Probably not - we'd be more interested in who Trump was gonna fire next.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[jakee 1,257]

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Ya, well he wasn't the fucking president at the time, was he?

He dealt the hand, and he left two shitty options behind.

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Probably not

So be honest. Leaving Iraq isn't why you don't like Hillary, you'd have bitched about a decision to stay just as much... because you don't like Hillary anyway.

(And seriously, are those the only two things you want to take away from that whole post?)

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Coreeece 2]

jakee

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Ya, well he wasn't the fucking president at the time, was he?

He dealt the hand, and he left two shitty options behind.

Ya, Obama and Hillary

jakee

***Probably not

So be honest. Leaving Iraq isn't why you don't like Hillary, you'd have bitched about a decision to stay just as much... because you don't like Hillary anyway.

Back when life was good, we didn't really care about politics. . . fuck, life was good under Clinton. But now we know better than to vote Hillary based on sexism and 90s nostalgia. . .

When shit starts sucking - we take notice.

Never was there an answer....not without listening, without seeing - Gilmour

[jakee 1,257]

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Ya, Obama and Hillary

QED

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Back when life was good, we didn't really care about politics. . . fuck, life was good under Clinton.

You woudn't have said that at the time. Rose tint is probably the most powerful psychological force known to man.

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When shit starts sucking - we take notice.

Shit doesn't suck. Life is good now.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?