Remember when they protected and served???

[Amazon 7]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/in-iraq-i-raided-insurgents-in-virginia-the-police-raided-me/ar-AAdtsd2?ocid=mailsignout

Yeah those days are gone....




When I later visited the Fairfax County police station to gather details about what went wrong, I met the shift commander, Lt. Erik Rhoads. I asked why his officers hadn’t contacted management before they raided the apartment. Why did they classify the incident as a forced entry, when the information they had suggested something innocuous? Why not evaluate the situation before escalating it?

Rhoads defended the procedure, calling the officers’ actions “on point.” It’s not standard to conduct investigations beforehand because that delays the apprehension of suspects, he told me.

I noted that the officers could have sought information from the apartment complex’s security guard that would have resolved the matter without violence. But he played down the importance of such information: “It doesn’t matter whatsoever what was said or not said at the security booth.”

This is where Rhoads is wrong. We’ve seen this troubling approach to law enforcement nationwide, in militarized police responses to nonviolent protesters and in fatal police shootings of unarmed citizens. The culture that encourages police officers to engage their weapons before gathering information promotes the mind-set that nothing, including citizen safety, is more important than officers’ personal security. That approach has caused public trust in law enforcement to deteriorate.

[Amazon 7]

Iago

***http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/in-iraq-i-raided-insurgents-in-virginia-the-police-raided-me/ar-AAdtsd2?ocid=mailsignout

Yeah those days are gone....




When I later visited the Fairfax County police station to gather details about what went wrong, I met the shift commander, Lt. Erik Rhoads. I asked why his officers hadn’t contacted management before they raided the apartment. Why did they classify the incident as a forced entry, when the information they had suggested something innocuous? Why not evaluate the situation before escalating it?

Rhoads defended the procedure, calling the officers’ actions “on point.” It’s not standard to conduct investigations beforehand because that delays the apprehension of suspects, he told me.

I noted that the officers could have sought information from the apartment complex’s security guard that would have resolved the matter without violence. But he played down the importance of such information: “It doesn’t matter whatsoever what was said or not said at the security booth.”

This is where Rhoads is wrong. We’ve seen this troubling approach to law enforcement nationwide, in militarized police responses to nonviolent protesters and in fatal police shootings of unarmed citizens. The culture that encourages police officers to engage their weapons before gathering information promotes the mind-set that nothing, including citizen safety, is more important than officers’ personal security. That approach has caused public trust in law enforcement to deteriorate.

Pretty simple. That's how they are being trained in today's police force.

When you are trained like a combat arms soldier, you will act like a combat arms soldier.

If you are not willing to put a potential suspect's life above your own, change careers.


Too bad,.......so sad when an innocent citizen gets whacked in their own home..... mmmmmkkkkkk gocha... the blue gang feared for their lives..... and the spiral down continues.

[Amazon 7]

Iago

*********http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/in-iraq-i-raided-insurgents-in-virginia-the-police-raided-me/ar-AAdtsd2?ocid=mailsignout

Yeah those days are gone....




When I later visited the Fairfax County police station to gather details about what went wrong, I met the shift commander, Lt. Erik Rhoads. I asked why his officers hadn’t contacted management before they raided the apartment. Why did they classify the incident as a forced entry, when the information they had suggested something innocuous? Why not evaluate the situation before escalating it?

Rhoads defended the procedure, calling the officers’ actions “on point.” It’s not standard to conduct investigations beforehand because that delays the apprehension of suspects, he told me.

I noted that the officers could have sought information from the apartment complex’s security guard that would have resolved the matter without violence. But he played down the importance of such information: “It doesn’t matter whatsoever what was said or not said at the security booth.”

This is where Rhoads is wrong. We’ve seen this troubling approach to law enforcement nationwide, in militarized police responses to nonviolent protesters and in fatal police shootings of unarmed citizens. The culture that encourages police officers to engage their weapons before gathering information promotes the mind-set that nothing, including citizen safety, is more important than officers’ personal security. That approach has caused public trust in law enforcement to deteriorate.

Pretty simple. That's how they are being trained in today's police force.

When you are trained like a combat arms soldier, you will act like a combat arms soldier.

If you are not willing to put a potential suspect's life above your own, change careers.


Too bad,.......so sad when an innocent citizen gets whacked in their own home..... mmmmmkkkkkk gocha... the blue gang feared for their lives..... and the spiral down continues.

Good thing for the author his was similarly trained and quickly realized what was happening.

A regular person would have twitched and possibly jumped up in surprise and been thoroughly ventilated. The police would then investigate themselves and find no misconduct or wrongdoing int he incident. This will be thoroughly backed up by whatever story the officers decide to make up and write down in the official report.

Well I suppose in some peoples thought processes.... that is ok.

[tkhayes 140]

Quote

When you are trained like a combat arms soldier, you will act like a combat arms soldier.

i have always agreed with this philosophy.

While admirable, the goal of keeping our police 'safe' by arming them to the teeth and teaching them combat techniques, the 'need' to be in control, and the use of overwhelming force in every situation has consequences for the average citizen.

If you ask a plumber for a solution, you will get a plumbers solution.

Likewise with the police. so many 911 calls get escalated into deadly confrontations that simply did not need to be. That is not the fault of the officer on the scene necessarily, more of a systemic fault at the very core of how we define police work and train them to respond.

shooting family pets. killing people for being drunk, high, or just having a mental moment. piling 5 officers on top of someone for 'not co-operating'. this list goes on. All of these things come directly from the training they receive and the legislation that has been passed supporting these behaviors.

[Amazon 7]

tkhayes

Quote

When you are trained like a combat arms soldier, you will act like a combat arms soldier.

i have always agreed with this philosophy.

While admirable, the goal of keeping our police 'safe' by arming them to the teeth and teaching them combat techniques, the 'need' to be in control, and the use of overwhelming force in every situation has consequences for the average citizen.

If you ask a plumber for a solution, you will get a plumbers solution.

Likewise with the police. so many 911 calls get escalated into deadly confrontations that simply did not need to be. That is not the fault of the officer on the scene necessarily, more of a systemic fault at the very core of how we define police work and train them to respond.

shooting family pets. killing people for being drunk, high, or just having a mental moment. piling 5 officers on top of someone for 'not co-operating'. this list goes on. All of these things come directly from the training they receive and the legislation that has been passed supporting these behaviors.

The Gestapo must be laughing with glee from whatever hell they fell into.

Yes I went there...Fascist Stateism...... I do not see a lot of difference anymore....A Jackbooted thug by any other name

[JerryBaumchen 1,066]

Hi tk,

Quote

If you ask a plumber for a solution, you will get a plumbers solution.

IMO an excellent post. And this is why, for the about the last 10 yrs, I have been an advocate for a non-police person as the top dog in any LEO outfit.

The FBI is usually headed up by a non-career FBI person.

This is the first start to changing the culture.

Jerry Baumchen

[tkhayes 140]

There is a lot of good ideas behind that. leadership does not necessarily need to have experience in the field, but the ability to see the vision and mission statement.

I remember an article a long long time ago talking about Norway (I think Norway) and the government agency that was in charge of the oil industry at govt levels. handling taxes, environmental and regulatory issues etc.

The person in charge was a guy with a PhD in philosophy....not an oil industry crony. had absolutely zero experience in the oil industry.

[Amazon 7]

Iago

******

Quote

When you are trained like a combat arms soldier, you will act like a combat arms soldier.

i have always agreed with this philosophy.

While admirable, the goal of keeping our police 'safe' by arming them to the teeth and teaching them combat techniques, the 'need' to be in control, and the use of overwhelming force in every situation has consequences for the average citizen.

If you ask a plumber for a solution, you will get a plumbers solution.

Likewise with the police. so many 911 calls get escalated into deadly confrontations that simply did not need to be. That is not the fault of the officer on the scene necessarily, more of a systemic fault at the very core of how we define police work and train them to respond.

shooting family pets. killing people for being drunk, high, or just having a mental moment. piling 5 officers on top of someone for 'not co-operating'. this list goes on. All of these things come directly from the training they receive and the legislation that has been passed supporting these behaviors.

The Gestapo must be laughing with glee from whatever hell they fell into.

Yes I went there...Fascist Stateism...... I do not see a lot of difference anymore....A Jackbooted thug by any other name

Consider this-

Would you recognize a police state if you were living in one?

Pretty damn sure the USA in many places is already there.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me

Add in a few groups like today.... I think you might get it...


Eventually they

[SkyDekker 1,145]

Iago

***Hi tk,

Quote

If you ask a plumber for a solution, you will get a plumbers solution.

IMO an excellent post. And this is why, for the about the last 10 yrs, I have been an advocate for a non-police person as the top dog in any LEO outfit.

The FBI is usually headed up by a non-career FBI person.

This is the first start to changing the culture.

Jerry Baumchen

That's correct.

And the military takes orders from a civilian leadership for some very good reasons as well.

Yes though the "defence" industry tends to be rather well represented in that civilian leadership.

[Anvilbrother 0]

JerryBaumchen

Hi tk,

Quote

If you ask a plumber for a solution, you will get a plumbers solution.

IMO an excellent post. And this is why, for the about the last 10 yrs, I have been an advocate for a non-police person as the top dog in any LEO outfit.

The FBI is usually headed up by a non-career FBI person.

This is the first start to changing the culture.

Jerry Baumchen

The leader of a large org like the FBI might function well with an outsider at the top because they are just a giant manager. They have experts below them who know what needs to be done, and just get the tools from them.

In most departments in the US this would fail horribly. Putting someone with only a business degree in charge of 6 captains, and 30 deputies would not work. At that size of a department there are no "industry experts" to manage. Most of all the decisions on everything are directed from the top which would be a person with no knowledge of criminology. Only the day to day things are done by the line personnel who get their orders from the top.

LSU FETI ran into that issue when they hired an outside guy whose expertise was "Molecular Population Genetics; Systematics; Evolution of Marine Invertebrates; Population Biology; Systematics" to run a Fire Fighting academy and Certification program. It was a complete joke, and he no longer works at FETI

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[tkhayes 140]

Quote

In most departments in the US this would fail horribly

I disagree. I can see where that opinion could be derived, but I think the more accurate conclusion would be

"In most departments in the US this would fail horribly in the current environment that we have...."

[JerryBaumchen 1,066]

Hi Anvil,

Quote

In most departments in the US this would fail horribly.

IMO that is the attitude of a quitter.

As I was raising my children, I told them that I never want to hear, "I can't do it, dad."

People suceed because they have a can-do attitude.

YMMV

Jerry Baumchen

[Anvilbrother 0]

It does not have anything to do with quitting or can do attitudes.

It is about hiring someone who has no clue what they are doing running an operation by telling people who kind of know what they are doing what to do. In a very large department you have the leadership that can take mission statements or goals from the top and implement them.

In small departments which make up most of all the US the person making the mission statement and goals is the same person that has to be the one to tell the guys on the street how to do it. How is someone with a degree in accounting going to tell someone on the street how to deal with rising crime in certain zip code?

Take my job as an example. I am a firefighter our department has a total of 27 employees. Most of the employees are under the age of 25 and 5 years of work experience.

Poof Jerry and TK you are now the Chief of my department.

Right now is your PIA rating year, what do you need to do this year, and what do you need to have prepared for the next year in order to get a class 3 rating in our department? The only other person who knows anything about this situation in the department is out on sick leave with cancer.

If you do not get every point you can your citizens insurance rates will go up angering your voters and your next millage and property tax renewal will not pass causing you to lose income and lay off firefighters. What do you do as an outsider put in charge at the top?

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[billvon 2,434]

>It is about hiring someone who has no clue what they are doing running an
>operation by telling people who kind of know what they are doing what to do.

Often not true. The best president/senator/congressperson is not always the career politician, and the best CEO is not always the former CEO who presided over the failures of four companies.

[Anvilbrother 0]

billvon

>It is about hiring someone who has no clue what they are doing running an
>operation by telling people who kind of know what they are doing what to do.

Often not true. The best president/senator/congressperson is not always the career politician, and the best CEO is not always the former CEO who presided over the failures of four companies.

Yes IFFFFF you are talking about a big business/department where there are people under you who KNOW what to do, and all you do is direct the vision, and they drive while you provide the resources, and handle the business end.

NONE of that exists in small departments which is what we are talking about. You are everything you have basically no structure under you to fall back on.

Day 1 you are hired, and you are the incident commander(chief assignment) at a structure fire while all your captains and firefighters are either interior, giving an all clear, on deck, in recycle, in rehab, and level 1. Do you know what any of this means? Do you know what RECEO stands for? Are you familiar with Blue card command system? What is the procedure for a mayday? What are the work/rest periods? Do you know how to fill out the tactical worksheets? What do you get with a second alarm? What are your tactical priorities? When do you go defensive on this structure? etc, etc

This is what the TOP head Chief does in 8 of the 10 departments in my parish. Baton Rouge and St.George has enough people to have Asst/District Chiefs that can do this while you learn, the rest respond to every major incident to be command.

This is incident work, is that accountant going to be able to handle the above incident, and the day to day work like that rating I posted a few posts up?

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[tkhayes 140]

now you are just cherry picking selective scenarios in an attempt to cover for the very broad statement that you made earlier.

It CAN and it HAS been done very successfully on many fronts many times.

Notice I did not make any blanket statements that it ALWAYS WORKS in EVERY CASE.

but you said it would likely fail horribly.

There are hundreds if not thousands of scenarios where the leaders of organizations, governmental, small, large, regional, business, civilian and or military have not been specifically experienced in the field that they oversee. And done it successfully with good outcomes.

[JerryBaumchen 1,066]

Hi Anvil,

Quote

you are the incident commander(chief assignment) at a structure fire

Is that what I was talking about? I recommend that you brush up your reading skills.

I used to be in the Portland Fire Bureau. 1964, 902 people took the test, I came out #1. In the Fall of '64 I went to a 4 alarm fire, the largest the city had ever had. No Fire Chief showed up; he stayed in his office doing what leaders do.

Jerry Baumchen

[Anvilbrother 0]

Quote

now you are just cherry picking selective scenarios in an attempt to cover for the very broad statement that you made earlier.

No this rating incident actually happened and is a factual thing with an actual cancer incident. We had a rating year a few terms back and the Asst. Chief was out with testicular cancer. The Chief had to handle the rating all on his own. Had the chief been a new outside hire what would they have done? Gotten a 10 on their rating probably

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[Anvilbrother 0]

Well we are talking about outside persons with no knowledge of the profession stepping into the role as "TOP DOG" I am in agreement that this will work for large departments, but not small as the leader needs to be intimately familiar with the job because the are basically the lone survivor. Your example of

Quote

I used to be in the Portland Fire Bureau. 1964, 902 people took the test, I came out #1. In the Fall of '64 I went to a 4 alarm fire, the largest the city had ever had. No Fire Chief showed up; he stayed in his office doing what leaders do.

Proves my point the TOP Chief did not need to show up because the department was large enough to have other Assistant/Deputy/Battalion Chiefs that 100% went to the scene of a 4 alarm fire I GUARANTEE you.

I am talking about small departments
"About half (49%) of all agencies employed fewer
than 10 full-time officers."
BJS LE census.

With 10 officers on the force TOTAL the TOP DOG will be in the office, and on the road making decisions that a person with an accountants degree will not be able to do. I do not see why you or TK do not grasp this.

You simply do not have the time for that person to get certified in everything, learn the law enforcement side, the running of the department side, and the political side before it all implodes.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[billvon 2,434]

>Day 1 you are hired, and you are the incident commander(chief assignment) at a
>structure fire while all your captains and firefighters are either interior, giving an all
>clear, on deck, in recycle, in rehab, and level 1. Do you know what any of this means?
>Do you know what RECEO stands for? Are you familiar with Blue card command system?
>What is the procedure for a mayday? What are the work/rest periods? Do you know
>how to fill out the tactical worksheets? What do you get with a second alarm? What
>are your tactical priorities? When do you go defensive on this structure? etc, etc

I could do exactly the same thing to you a fire department in a different country and you would be completely clueless as to what's going on.

However, it would be a good bet that you could learn the differences. So can other people.

[tkhayes 140]

I never suggested that your scenario never happened. I said you were cherry picking specific scenarios to support a broad statement.

[normiss 622]

"In most departments in the US this IS would failing horribly"

FIFY

[Amazon 7]

I think this good ole boy has it pretty dialed in...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QwLicEQL0A#t=29

[RMK 3]

Here's an article with several videos of the police "helping" people:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/police-brutality-reports_55b65b79e4b0074ba5a53417

"Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes"

[Kadde 0]

RMK

Here's an article with several videos of the police "helping" people:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/police-brutality-reports_55b65b79e4b0074ba5a53417

According to earlier comments this is just a case of us not knowing how police work has to be done. We couldnt possibly imagine how threatened all of these officers (many times several vs one) must have felt by allready cuffed "suspects".