my afp1= bad experience

[Mark24688m 0]

hi. my name is mark. currently before today, i had 3 tandem jumps. today, i went out and did my first afp jump. i was a little nervous before hand, but overall i was alright. my exit was unstable, i was kicking and flipping. after about 10 seconds i was slightly stable, with some spinning. my main problem was i wasnt arching enough, and i didnt have my legs out. at 5500 i waved off, and at the point i pulled i was in a very unstable position. i wasnt arched, and my legs were god knows where. my canopy came out, and i looked up. i did the 4 "s" check, which is when i realized there was a problem. my two end cells were collapesed, and almost all of the front lines on the canopy had an extreme amount of slack, and they werent taunt like the back. the left few lines were also tangled. i didnt panic. i immediatly flared, held it, and repeated. nothing. same problem. tried a few more times. nothing. so i turned left, and it worked fine, i turned right, good, i flared, good. i made the decision not to cut away, because the canopy was definetly landable. now, on to my second problem. because of the fact that i was dropped really far away, and the upper winds were very strong, i realized there was no way i was going to make it to the lz. at about 4000 feet, i realized i was way to far away to make it. i looked around for a good place to land, but nothing. i kept heading straight at the airport the entire time to get as close as possible, but there was no way in hell i was going to make it. at 1000 feet i picked out an extremely small place to land. a patch of grass no larger than 100ft x 100ft. in front of it was power lines. on the right side, a small building surrounded by barbed wire fence. behind it, a plane hanger and runway, and in front of it trees. i stalled just over it and waited unitl about 500ft, when i made a quick right turn, went straight to abut 300 feet over the hanger, then pulled a U turn and went at the grass i was aiming for. i landed safetly right in the middle, about 1/2 mile from the lz, surrounded by death objects. i had a radio, one way, so my instucter could talk to me, but there were 5 separate afp jumps in the load we were in, ALL ON THE SAME RADIO CHANNEL. i was hearing "turn left, turn left" so i started to, when i realized they were talking to somebody else. the only thing my instructer said to me the entire time was, "please dont hit those power lines" the reason i know we were dropped far and the upper winds were stong, was the guy who jumped right after me landed about 2000 feet from me also on the wrong side of the runway. throughout the whole thing, i never paniced, and im really proud of the fact that i was able to steer correctly and avoid the trees, roads, buildings, power lines, and fences. im suprised at how good i preformed. now for you guys, i have a question. what exactly caused the malfuctions i had? was it the fact that i was unstable at deployment? my instructer said he was going to check the rig for snapped lines, but i had to leave and i never heard the results.

[chaoskitty 0]

Wow.. what you have there is what we call a "No shit there I was.. " story. Glad you kept your cool and got yourself on the ground safely! Good job!

As far as asking us what happened to your canopy...? You might get a lot of speculative feedback. I wouldn't even bother with talking to anyone but the dz's instructors about it. We dont know the gear, dont know how old it is, how it performs normally, how bad or good your body position was... it could have been one thing, or a combination of things. Talk to your instructor about it.

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[Mark24688m 0]

my instructer said from what he saw it was fine, but thats looking up at a parachute thats 3000 feet in the air and a mile away. plus, it wasnt a major malfucntion. even if you guys cant tell me exactly what happend, because im pretty sure nobody can really tell me, id appreciate it if you could please list the things that could have caused it, so i can run them through my head and try to figrue it out myslef.

[rwieder 0]

What type of canopy? Wing Load? Container?

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[karenmeal 0]

Did the canopy fly straight when it was in full flight? (ie. no input from you.. toggles all the way up.)

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[Mark24688m 0]

to tell you the truth im not even sure the brand of anything, it was all the rental crap they just gave to me. i didnt even have a choice and they didnt tell me. however, i do know the canopy size was way to big for me. i remember the guy saying how they rent like 180-210 for students, but i only way 135-140. so my guess is the canopy was probably too big. im not expierienced at this so i dont know if that could be another reason it didnt deploy correctly.

edit: i was trying to keep mysled facing the airport the entire time, so i had the toggles in my hands, but i kept them all the way to to get as much speed as possible to try and make it back. from what i recall, it was flying relatily straight. probalby because the malfuction was "symetrical" if that makes any sense. it was the same problem on both sides. to tell you the truth, it looked like all the cells on the entire front the canopy werent open all the way.

[chaoskitty 0]

Body position is an unlikely cause of end cell closure. Pack job is a more likely cause. Age/make of the canopy is an even more likely cause. Its not a terribly uncommon thing to have happen. Normally a few quick flares will fix it. Stab the brakes and let them up to get some air in the cells. Just dont collapse the canopy.
But you said that flaring didn't clear the end cell closure, so my best guess would be that you were jumping an F111 canopy thats probably close to the end of it's days. But I could be wrong. Try a different student rig on your next jump if possible.

[Mark24688m 0]

it wasnt just the fact that i had end cell closure. the majority of the font lines were just hanging there, completely loose and tangled, not doing anything. i dont know how the hell it actually turned. i cant belive all this crap had to happen to me on my first solo jump. so many probelms. dropped me too far away, stong upper winds, canopy malfunction. if they dropped me anywhere near the lz i would have been alright, just the fact that i had NOWHERE to land. i picked this tiny spot, and i did my best to actually land there. it was unbelievable. im still shocked i actaull did it.

[jtval 0]

I doubt the canopy was too big for you.
Students get big gear because it helps them not die. had you been under a 170 you may not have been so lucky. I would imagine you were under something very large.

from your original post it sounds like closed end cells. flaring should have fixed it.

the problem is, if you dont know the info. we can't help you figure it out.

it could be all kinds of things that added to your problem. once the canopy id open the body postion at deployment is no longer an issue.

were you sitting in the harness properly?
did your leg straps loosen?
when you flared, how long did you how it?
if you had end cell closure, the turns should have been tough.

was the pilot chute wrapped over the nose?


Congrats on landing safely and kudos for wanting to know Wtf Happened. let us know what your instructor says

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[Mark24688m 0]

no the pilot chute was one thing that was actually in the right place. i just dont understand how i had end cell closure, and all my front lines were loosed and tangled up. somthing had to be packed bad or i just deploed it horribly.

[jtval 0]

how were the lines hanging?

You say youre not sure they were broken so I would imagine that they were loose because the end cells were not inflated.


just to clarify the size of your canopy thing.

Even if though you weight 135 clothed and 160 with gear on it would not be wise to put you under something less than a 190-ish because they fly more docile. its like trying to compare the handling of a bus and a sport car. the turns are fasterthe descent is faster, that foward movement is faster etc...

even though wingloading may seem overabundant its more about the safety and slow movement of the canopy.


My cousin is 4' 11" and weighs like 100 pounds. they had her on a 220 If I remember correctly. the thing was huge. but she was safe

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[karenmeal 0]

Personally, I've never heard of a malfunction that would fit the scenario that you are describing.

I think that it is very possible that you simply had end-cell closure (which should have been remedied by a couple of flares). I suppose it could be possible that all of the front lines could have some sort of symetrical tension knots.. but not likely.

I remember what my first AFF jump was like, it is almost scary to think back on the level of awareness that I had on those early jumps. When you're scared, and pumped full of adrenaline reality can become distorted. I wouldn't be surprised if that is what happened in this case.

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[Frenchy68 0]

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at about 4000 feet, i realized i was way to far away to make it

If indeed you had no chance of making it back to the LZ while still at 4,000ft, I would have a major issue with the spots given to FJC students... You mentioned there were more students on your load, and they must have jumped after you since you were hearing directions being given to them while you were close to final. Did they all land out? Or were you the only one?

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[livendive 8]

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Personally, I've never heard of a malfunction that would fit the scenario that you are describing.

I think that it is very possible that you simply had end-cell closure (which should have been remedied by a couple of flares). I suppose it could be possible that all of the front lines could have some sort of symetrical tension knots.. but not likely.

I suppose this ranks as a "ditto", but a bit more specifically. There's no way you landed with all the front lines slack and are here to ask us about it. If you had landed with all the front lines slack, this would be the appropriate forum for the rest of us to discuss it.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Erroll 49]

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i did the 4 "s" check, which is when i realized there was a problem. my two end cells were collapesed, and almost all of the front lines on the canopy had an extreme amount of slack.

Do you recall if the slider had come all the way down at this point?

[topper 0]

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it wasnt just the fact that i had end cell closure. the majority of the front lines were just hanging there, completely loose and tangled, not doing anything

This may sound stupid, but you were flying forwards? Was there a strong wind? Just sounds like maybe packed with a stepthrough and the front was actually the back, and you were looking at the steering lines and the cascades?

As previously said, I would doubt a canopy with "loose" A lines is steerable and landable.

Chris

[dragon2 0]

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it wasnt just the fact that i had end cell closure. the majority of the front lines were just hanging there, completely loose and tangled, not doing anything

This may sound stupid, but you were flying forwards? Was there a strong wind? Just sounds like maybe packed with a stepthrough and the front was actually the back, and you were looking at the steering lines and the cascades?

As previously said, I would doubt a canopy with "loose" A lines is steerable and landable.

Chris

Please go look at a canopy on the ground and try this yourself. The only way for a canopy to end up front to back is if you attached it that way. A step through will give you a twist in the risers, usually no problem on a larger canopy.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[topper 0]

DOH Good point, my bad - it's friday.

So could it be attached backwards?

[pirana 0]

Sounds impossible. I don't see how a canopy could even fly with "extreme" slack across all the front lines, but with enough tension on the steering lines to be actually flown in the direction of choice.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Mark24688m 0]

everybody in the plane exited right near the airport. then, me and my instructor moved towards the door and prepared to jump. last safety check, all that crap. then the pilot told us to hold on because he had to make a turn because we were as far out as he could go, and literally as soon as he finished the turn we were out the door withing 5 seconds. the last afp student that jumped right after me also didnt make it to the lz. he also landed off coarse and on the wrong side of the runwayt. the respones im getting throughout this thread are similar to what my instuctor said after we landed and talked about it. "impossible" "unlikely". these responses are more or less frustrating me, because i am telling you exactly what happened. im not "making anything up" and im not stretching the truth. im telling you guys EXACTLY what happened because i want to figure out what the cause could be so next time im prepared. it would do me absolutly no good to make any of this up.

edit: i forgot to mention that the slider WAS down properly, although it was making a hell of a lot of noise, which i dont know if thats normal because i dont ever remember that happening during tandem. i can tell you guys, what ever exactly happened was more than just a collapsed end cell. me and my instructor had one on my t2, so this time when it happened i already knew what it looked like. i cant exactly be sure what was wrong with my front lines, because i didnt have all the time in the world to firgure it out. i was more worried about the fact that i wasnt going to make it to the lz and all that was under me were woods and roads w/ power lines. could someone explain to me what it looks like when a line snaps, so that i can claify if thats what i saw on mine?

edit 2: i also forgot to mention that the wind was blowing south, and i was dropped north-north-west of the lz, so i pretty much had the wind at my back, but also slightly to the side.

[Orange1 0]

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to tell you the truth im not even sure the brand of anything, it was all the rental crap they just gave to me. i didnt even have a choice and they didnt tell me. however, i do know the canopy size was way to big for me. i remember the guy saying how they rent like 180-210 for students, but i only way 135-140. so my guess is the canopy was probably too big. im not expierienced at this so i dont know if that could be another reason it didnt deploy correctly.

Question - you say you don't know the canopy make or size...here as students we always have to log make and size of both main and reserve for each jump (as students, and then on downsizing progression basically till we get our own gear), is it not the same there?

Not very experienced but re your last point .. I weigh 120lb and have deployed both 280s and 230s with no problem, I can't see that "too big" would be a factor in the deployment issues (though it would have made it harder to fight strong winds to get back)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[karenmeal 0]

If you had broken lines you would see broken lines blowing in the wind.. or atleast it would be blatantly obvious on the ground. If all or most of the lines on the nose were broken you could not have properly steered and flared the canopy.

As far as your concerns about the canopy being too big for you, I think that the canopy size sounds very appropriate. Students need to jump very large canopies to protect themselves from themselves.

Did you speak with your instructor about you making the decision at 4,000 feet to land out? I think that you need to talk with him/her about this because the decision altitude for landing out isn't usually that high.


It sounds like you have some major trust issues with your instructor and/or the place you are jumping at.

You either need to try to trust their judgement and not second guess everything they tell you or go someplace else where you will have more confidence in your instructor's knowledge.

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[NewGuy2005 51]

I'm new, so I don't know what I'm talking about.

The slider noise is normal on student gear and lots of other gear as well. Not all gear will make the noise, however.

There's no telling what happened, but it sounds like you did a gerat job with the situation you were given.

[Mark24688m 0]

once again, i really didnt have a lot of time to inspect anything because i was really worried about the fact that i wasnt going to make it to the lz and i was over a forest. around 4000-3500ft i knew i had no chance of making it back, which really gives me the idea that whatever the problem with my canopy was, it was definetly more than just a simple end cell closure. i was moving super slow even with the toggles all the way up.

[AFFI 0]

Bad experience?

Doesn’t sound like a bad experience to me at all; you didn’t panic and landed safely when the chips were down which sounds like a good experience.

Congrats.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…