Gun for home defense

[billvon 2,400]

>Only if you're willing to be dishonest about it, Bill. Suicides have little place in the conversation . . . .

If you want to keep your kids from dying (which is what this story is about) it is very much in the conversation. Suicides make up part of both gun and car fatalities.

>And I've never seen a ZipGuns service that lets me rent a gun for 2 hours

?? I've rented guns several times at a nearby range for an hour or so. Is that illegal where you are?

>Trying to say that cars are more regulated than guns is a losing battle, Bill.

Except for the fact that they are.

Do any states require gun insurance? How about gun registration?

[Anvilbrother 0]

Can you legally get a gun from a gun store if your a felon?
Can you legally get a gun from a gun store if your a mental patient?
Can you legally get a gun from a gun store if you have a restraining order?
Can you legally get a gun from a gun store if you are addicted to drugs?
Can you legally get a gun from a gun store if you have charges pending?
Can you legally get a gun from a gun store if it's not for you personally?

The answer to all that is no

Replace gun with car and the answer would be yes to all those questions. Looks like guns are more regulated then.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[lawrocket 3]

billvon

>Only if you're willing to be dishonest about it, Bill. Suicides have little place in the conversation . . . .

If you want to keep your kids from dying (which is what this story is about) it is very much in the conversation. Suicides make up part of both gun and car fatalities.

I remember right after found out about it, being ever so grateful that Robin Williams didn't use a gun.


[Quote]>Trying to say that cars are more regulated than guns is a losing battle, Bill.

Except for the fact that they are.

Do any states require gun insurance? How about gun registration?

There is no Constitutional right to own, operate or possess a car. Regulating vehicles thus doesn't has a Constitutional hurdle to pass. Cars are also more regulated than parenthood. And I'm sure many would agree that even people who can be trusted with a motor vehicle might be a pretty shitty parent.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 2,400]

>Can you legally get a gun from a gun store if your a mental patient?

Yes. You can be under the care of a psychiatrist and purchase a gun. The rest of the issues will prohibit you from buying a gun.

Now:

If you buy a gun from a dealer, do you have to register it?
If you buy a gun from a dealer, do you have to insure it?
If you buy a gun from a dealer, do you need a gun license to use it?
Does your gun need to be inspected regularly by the government if you want to use it?
If you want to buy a new gun does it need to have over a dozen active and passive government mandated safety devices?

Cars are far more regulated than guns.

[kelpdiver 2]

billvon

>Only if you're willing to be dishonest about it, Bill. Suicides have little place in the conversation . . . .

If you want to keep your kids from dying (which is what this story is about) it is very much in the conversation. Suicides make up part of both gun and car fatalities.

Suicides represent 2/3rds of deaths involving guns. Suicides by car are roughly estimate in the 1.5-5% range. Really not comparable. Suicides involving rail can be markedly higher, particularly in nations where guns are not available. Methods are easily substituted, and suicide rates can be markedly higher outside the US. So yes - you're being dishonest here. Knowingly.

Quote

>And I've never seen a ZipGuns service that lets me rent a gun for 2 hours

?? I've rented guns several times at a nearby range for an hour or so. Is that illegal where you are?

At the range. Under supervision. And for the ranges around here, only if you bring another person or bring at least one gun. So you didn't gain a practical suicide or murder weapon.

Zipcar, otoh, lets me select and obtain a car with absolutely no other human element in the transaction. My smart phone does all the work. And then I can drive that car all the way to Mexico, or to do a drive by, or to crash through the Santa Monica promenade. If I don't return it in the time I specified, they'll charge me more, and eventually (days?) they might conclude it was stolen.

Quote

Do any states require gun insurance? How about gun registration?

Form 4473 and the accompanying background check is much more substantial than anything I've filed with the DMV.

[Stumpy 256]

Anvilbrother

Can you legally get a gun from a gun store if your a felon?
Can you legally get a gun from a gun store if your a mental patient?
Can you legally get a gun from a gun store if you have a restraining order?
Can you legally get a gun from a gun store if you are addicted to drugs?
Can you legally get a gun from a gun store if you have charges pending?
Can you legally get a gun from a gun store if it's not for you personally?

The answer to all that is no

Replace gun with car and the answer would be yes to all those questions. Looks like guns are more regulated then.

Nope.
That's nonsense because private sales and gun show sales allow every single one of those conditions to be ignored.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[kelpdiver 2]

billvon

>Can you legally get a gun from a gun store if your a mental patient?

Yes. You can be under the care of a psychiatrist and purchase a gun. The rest of the issues will prohibit you from buying a gun.

Now:

If you buy a gun from a dealer, do you have to register it?
If you buy a gun from a dealer, do you have to insure it?
If you buy a gun from a dealer, do you need a gun license to use it?
Does your gun need to be inspected regularly by the government if you want to use it?
If you want to buy a new gun does it need to have over a dozen active and passive government mandated safety devices?

Cars are far more regulated than guns.

car design, sure. They're far more complicated, and with greater collateral damage when done wrong. But most of what you raise isn't applicable. Cars get smog checked every 2 or 4 years because of air quality concerns. Few states actually inspect anything else on the car, the parts that lead to accidents.

There's no (justifiable) need for the insurance angle.
There has been substantial attempts to regulate gun design, although primarily with a punitive intent (cost) rather than the make them safer.

As for car purchase process and ownership, not remotely close.

[kelpdiver 2]

Stumpy

Nope.
That's nonsense because private sales and gun show sales allow every single one of those conditions to be ignored.

How many times do we have to repeat that gun show sales follow identical laws of non gun show sales before it will sink in?

[Anvilbrother 0]

Quote

Can you legally get a gun from a gun store

And you cant read for shit.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[Anvilbrother 0]

Quote

How many times do we have to repeat that gun show sales follow identical laws of non gun show sales before it will sink in?

Exactly, and for the private sale thing, that isnt legal in all states, some require an actual transfer at a FFL with paperwork.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[billvon 2,400]

> So yes - you're being dishonest here. Knowingly.

I'm being dishonest because I am using totals instead of cherry picking the numbers I use?

>At the range. Under supervision.

No supervision. "Keep it as long as you like, we close at six, range is over there. If someone else wants it I'll send them in. You have shells?"

>And for the ranges around here, only if you bring another person or bring at
>least one gun. So you didn't gain a practical suicide or murder weapon.

Didn't you just complain to high heaven that I dared to use suicide in a gun regulation discussion?

In any case it would have been quite easy to use it as a suicide or murder weapon. Not just true for a rented weapon; ANYONE at a range can kill themselves quite easily, whether the gun is rented and whether you come with anyone else or not. It would also be pretty easy to kill a few people at a range if you so desired.

==========
American Sniper' author Chris Kyle fatally shot at Texas gun range
Sunday Feb 3, 2013 12:52 PM

By Gil Aegerter and Alastair Jamieson, NBC News

A former Navy SEAL who wrote "American Sniper," a best-selling book about his lethal career as a marksman in Iraq, was shot to death with another man at a gun range near Stephenville, Texas, on Saturday.

Chris Kyle, 38, and the other man were found dead at the shooting range of Rough Creek Lodge on Saturday afternoon, Texas Highway Patrol spokesman Lonny Haschel told KXAS.

The gunman, identified as Eddie Ray Routh of Lancaster, Texas, was arrested after a brief pursuit, Trooper Haschel said. The other victim was named as Chad Littlefield, aged 35.
==========

[Stumpy 256]

kelpdiver

***
Nope.
That's nonsense because private sales and gun show sales allow every single one of those conditions to be ignored.

How many times do we have to repeat that gun show sales follow identical laws of non gun show sales before it will sink in?

With no regulation, recourse, or means of actually holding anyone accountable. (Caveat - for most states)
Face it - if you are going to come up with crap analogies, you will get owned.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[kelpdiver 2]

Stumpy

***
How many times do we have to repeat that gun show sales follow identical laws of non gun show sales before it will sink in?

With no regulation, recourse, or means of actually holding anyone accountable. (Caveat - for most states)
Face it - if you are going to come up with crap analogies, you will get owned.

If you want to believe false information, there's not much I can do for you. But if you want to repost lies, we're going to call you on it.

There is no gun show loophole.
There is a private sales 'loophole,' if you insist on calling it that.

In any event, it's been well established that gun shows are not remotely the dominant supplier of weapons for criminal activity.

[billvon 2,400]

>There is no gun show loophole.
>There is a private sales 'loophole,' if you insist on calling it that.

Yes. And private people can sell guns at gun shows.

Hence, if you want a gun without a background check, you can go to a gun show, find a private seller, and buy a gun without a background check. That provides an easy avenue for criminals to obtain guns without a background check at gun shows.

Could this happen on a streetcorner? Yes, it could. But if you compare the number of private citizens selling guns on streetcorners, vs. the number of private citizens (and FFL's acting as private citizens) selling guns at gun shows, the reason it's called "the gun show loophole" becomes clear.

Some states have made this illegal, so clearly some people agree it's an issue. However I don't think it is nearly a big an issue as it is made out to be, since a very, very small percentage (less than 2%) of illegal gun sales happen through this channel.

[Croc 0]

Gun shows in the US must follow all the rules for gun sales.

Tell us, when was the last time you bought a gun at a US gun show?

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

[kelpdiver 2]

billvon

> So yes - you're being dishonest here. Knowingly.

I'm being dishonest because I am using totals instead of cherry picking the numbers I use?

Yes. And you know why. Do you attribute hanging deaths to rope? Or poisoning deaths to sleeping pills? Some find guns or the Golden Gate Bridge more problematic on the notion that suicide can be an impulsive act and these methods are more effective, but when I see no difference in suicide rates between gun loving America (is 34th, half the rate of Japan) and numerous other nations, I discount that.

And on that smaller point, 30k != 35k.

Quote

>At the range. Under supervision.

No supervision. "Keep it as long as you like, we close at six, range is over there. If someone else wants it I'll send them in. You have shells?"

How is that not supervision? Can you walk out of the range with the gun and them not knowing? My range pays close enough attention to complain over the mic if you hit the target mount or shoot the head instead of the torso on the paper target.

That isn't remotely like walking out of my house to the corner and getting into a car that my smart phone opens for me. If I show up at the range with bloodshot eyes, or stinking drunk, do you think they're giving me a weapon, or even letting me use my own? They also take my ID, ask when I last shot there, review the range rules. Every time.

Quote

>And for the ranges around here, only if you bring another person or bring at
>least one gun. So you didn't gain a practical suicide or murder weapon.

Didn't you just complain to high heaven that I dared to use suicide in a gun regulation discussion?

I'm struggling to see how this gun rental is relevant. If you need to have a gun to rent a gun, it hasn't change the potential threats of violence, has it? Which again, has no bearing to ZipCar and other widely available options for obtaining a car with no safeguards in place. If you have a credit card and a non suspended license, you're in business.

Quote

In any case it would have been quite easy to use it as a suicide or murder weapon. Not just true for a rented weapon; ANYONE at a range can kill themselves quite easily, whether the gun is rented and whether you come with anyone else or not. It would also be pretty easy to kill a few people at a range if you so desired.

Yes, you could, though you shouldn't expect to survive, no more than the people who directly confront LEOs (suicide by cop). But now you're debating on the fringe where event frequency is low, rather than talk about the 10-11k criminal shootings, or the ~20k deaths due to drunk driving, or the 30k some overall deaths by negligent driving. And yet, we still let anyone buy a car with no barriers other than having cash.

[kelpdiver 2]

billvon

Hence, if you want a gun without a background check, you can go to a gun show, find a private seller, and buy a gun without a background check.

You and I cannot. We live in California.

If Stumpy had said, 'in 33 states, private sales and gun show sales allow every single one of those conditions to be ignored,' I'd have no answer. It's true. All I can do is quibble on the significance of this gap, and note that in California and many of the other more populous states, this gap doesn't exist.

But he said private sales AND gun shows. And doubled down when challenged on the falsehood.

[hackish 8]

I'm always amused by the culture of gun ownership in the USA. Many people have told me that they own a firearm for home protection yet I have yet to meet someone who had to use a firearm for said purpose.

While I don't discount that bad things do happen to good people history hasn't shown the high percentage of gun ownership to be effective in the prevention of crime.

Effective use of a short gun requires a good deal of currency. Most times I've asked, gun owners reported going to the range to practice about every year. Put it in skydiver terms, get off student status and have an AAD fire with a PDR99 in your rig. Chances of survival?

My home protection consists of my dog and the local PD. Not that too many of us up in Canada lock ourselves inside the house at night anyway. Just sayin...

-Michael

[billvon 2,400]

> Do you attribute hanging deaths to rope?

If I were compiling a list of items people used for killing? Definitely. And I'd include rope used for hanging both oneself and others, and rope used for strangling people. In fact I am pretty sure someone here did just that, with the usual admonition at the end "so why don't you ban rope?"

It would sure be dumb to say "well, if a rope is used for a noose to hang yourself I'll exclude it, but not when it was used to hang someone else." That would be cherrypicking.

>How is that not supervision?

Because I can kill both myself or someone else - something you claim would not be possible under supervision. So in fact one could "obtain a practical murder or suicide weapon" quite easily.

>Yes, you could, though you shouldn't expect to survive

Agreed - although clearly it's quite possible, even if the person you are trying to kill is an expert with a weapon. (And just as clearly, "expecting to survive a suicide" is not really a factor.)

> And yet, we still let anyone buy a car with no barriers other than having cash.

Uh - no. You can't buy a car from a dealer without a license, proof of some form of insurance coverage, and without getting it registered.

[kallend 1,625]

Anvilbrother

Here is a whole website dedicated to it going right.
http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen.aspx

OOOh, three in two weeks. WOW!

MEANWHILE some 33 citizens are murdered with guns EVERY DAY in the USA, and some 25 are killed in accidental shootings in a typical two week period.

Seems that the cost/benefit ratio is not in favor of firearms ownership for self defense.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,625]

lawrocket

***
Doesn't always work out the way you'd like:

www.weartv.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.fl/22fb922a-www.weartv.com.shtml

Indeed. You should always call police. Then it will work out the way you'd like.

Sure would have in this case.

The successful defenses listed by NRA-ILA are about 1/10 of the accidental shootings and an even smaller fraction of the firearms murders.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,625]

Anvilbrother

Can you legally get a gun from a gun store if your a felon?
Can you legally get a gun from a gun store if your a mental patient?
Can you legally get a gun from a gun store if you have a restraining order?
Can you legally get a gun from a gun store if you are addicted to drugs?
Can you legally get a gun from a gun store if you have charges pending?
Can you legally get a gun from a gun store if it's not for you personally?

The answer to all that is no

Replace gun with car and the answer would be yes to all those questions. Looks like guns are more regulated then.

Can you easily buy a gun without any form of background check even if disqualified?

The answer to that is YES. Trivially easily.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,625]

Croc

Gun shows in the US must follow all the rules for gun sales.

Tell us, when was the last time you bought a gun at a US gun show?

33 states allow private sales at gun shows without a background check.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Anvilbrother 0]

These words are pure bullshit.

Quote

Can you easily buy a gun without any form of background check even if disqualified?

The answer to that is YES. Trivially easily.

If it so fucking easy I will paypal you $1000 if you can go buy a gun off the street in the next 12 hours. I will pm you my paypal address and you can send me a money request once you provide proof. Hell we can do this like a rig deal lets agree on a middle man that way i cant turn you in, and you get the money.

Put your money where your mouth is!

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[kallend 1,625]

Anvilbrother

These words are pure bullshit.

Quote

Can you easily buy a gun without any form of background check even if disqualified?

The answer to that is YES. Trivially easily.

If it so fucking easy I will paypal you $1000 if you can go buy a gun off the street in the next 12 hours. I will pm you my paypal address and you can send me a money request once you provide proof. Hell we can do this like a rig deal lets agree on a middle man that way i cant turn you in, and you get the money.

Put your money where your mouth is!

You do know that I live on the south side of Chicago, right?

Besides, where did I say "off the street"? YOU made that up.

All I need do is go to a gun show 25 miles away in Indiana, one of 33 states that does not restrict private sales at gun shows in any manner whatsoever.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.