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Anvilbrother

Riots over a shoting turn into free jordans and 40's

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jakee

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He didn't just go to long-term prison for stealing a 159 dollar jacket. YOUR STATEMENT, LIKE MANY IS MISLEADING IN THAT YOU DO IMPLY HE WENT TO JAIL FOR JUST ONE OFFENCE.



I'm not implying that. Going to jail for life for stealing four jackets is just as great an injustice as going to jail for life for stealing one.



I was replying to Skydekker
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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jakee

So, in a fair, free country how many convictions for shoplifting jackets should lead to death in prison?

(Because you know, the rest of the developed world manages to run along just fine on a fraction of your incarceration rate. The only reason for you to lock up so many people is because you like doing it.)



You'd probably have to define for me, the phrase 'run along just fine'... I'm sure there are victims in the rest of the developed world who actually don't believe that their little corner of the universe is
'running along just fine'...
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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Probably his prior convictions. They love to beat up on me and Louisiana on this habitual offender law but the fact is over 20 states have this law, and California is known as the one that is most strict on what is allowed to count as a strike.

Here is a case straight from California which shows this law isn't about keeping the black man down or private prison it's about stopping career criminals and takes in the totality of their history.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ewing_v._California#Plurality_decision

Quote

Three-strikes laws, O'Connor observed, represented a new trend in criminal sentencing. "These laws respond[] to widespread public concerns about crime by targeting the class of offenders who pose the greatest threat to public safety: career criminals." Such laws were a "deliberate policy choice" on the part of legislatures to isolate those who have "repeatedly engaged in serious or violent criminal behavior" from the rest of society in order to protect public safety. For O'Connor, the desire to punish repeat criminals more harshly was "no pretext" for the legitimate policy choice that the three-strikes law implemented. Such laws serve the valid penological goals of incapacitation and deterrence. Although California's three-strikes law may have generated some controversy, "we do not sit as a superlegislature to second-guess" the policy choices made by particular states. "It is enough that the State of California has a reasonable basis for believing that dramatically enhanced sentences for habitual felons advances the goals of its criminal justice system in any substantial way."

Ewing's crime was not simply that of stealing three golf clubs—it was stealing three golf clubs after being convicted of two violent or serious felonies. "In weighing the gravity of Ewing's offense, we must place on the scales not only his current felony, but also his long history of felony recidivism. Any other approach would fail to accord proper deference to the policy judgments that find expression in the legislature's choice of sanctions." Ewing's sentence might be long, but it "reflects a rational judgment, entitled to deference, that offenders who have committed serious or violent felonies and who continue to commit felonies must be incapacitated." For this reason, O'Connor reasoned that Ewing's 25-years-to-life sentence did not violate the Eighth Amendment.



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DanG

Another valid question is why shoplifting is a felony. The guy took a $159 jacket. Why should that be considered a felony?



If he, in his own words, "Just needed a jacket." why steal an expensive one? Surely they had a sale rack.

Or go to a thrift shop and (gasp) buy one for pocket change.
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

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skypuppy

***So, in a fair, free country how many convictions for shoplifting jackets should lead to death in prison?

(Because you know, the rest of the developed world manages to run along just fine on a fraction of your incarceration rate. The only reason for you to lock up so many people is because you like doing it.)



You'd probably have to define for me, the phrase 'run along just fine'... I'm sure there are victims in the rest of the developed world who actually don't believe that their little corner of the universe is
'running along just fine'...

I am relatively well established in the Canadian Retail world. Shoplifting is a big cost. I can't say I know anybody who would advocate death in prison for shoplifting.

We are running along just fine in Canada on that front.

Sentences like this are beyond retarded and about half a step above the North Korean system.

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DanG

Another valid question is why shoplifting is a felony. The guy took a $159 jacket. Why should that be considered a felony?

It seems that in Missouri if you have been convicted of two theft-related offenses within the previous 10 years then any new theft is considered a felony, regardless of the value of the stolen goods (link). This is the kind of thing that results in people being sentenced to life for stealing a slice of pizza.

Another issue is that many states have not updated their felony statutes for many years, so minimum dollar amounts that seemed serious 50 years ago are still the threshold today. In Missouri the threshold is $500, but there is a long list of specific items (animals/livestock, firearms, US flags, etc) that automatically are treated as felonies regardless of value. It's a lot more likely that any thief will face a felony charge today than they would have for stealing the exact same item 20 or 30 years ago, just because of inflation.

Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

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Such laws were a "deliberate policy choice" on the part of legislatures to isolate those who have "repeatedly engaged in serious or violent criminal behavior" from the rest of society in order to protect public safety.



I guess I don't think burgulary is a serious or violent offense, especially when the goods being burgled are of low value.

- Dan G

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If he, in his own words, "Just needed a jacket." why steal an expensive one? Surely they had a sale rack.

Or go to a thrift shop and (gasp) buy one for pocket change.



You are absolutely right. His choice to steal a $159 jacket instead of a $60 one justifies sending him to prison for life.:S

Just keep in mind that the individual taxpayers will now be paying for his incarceration for decades.

- Dan G

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Bolas

***Another valid question is why shoplifting is a felony. The guy took a $159 jacket. Why should that be considered a felony?



If he, in his own words, "Just needed a jacket." why steal an expensive one? Surely they had a sale rack.

Or go to a thrift shop and (gasp) buy one for pocket change.

They'll say anything to try and rationalize their actions. That jacket would have been sold on the street for probably $50 if he'd gotten away with it.
There will be no addressing the customers as "Bitches", "Morons" or "Retards"!

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Bolas

***Another valid question is why shoplifting is a felony. The guy took a $159 jacket. Why should that be considered a felony?



If he, in his own words, "Just needed a jacket." why steal an expensive one? Surely they had a sale rack.

Or go to a thrift shop and (gasp) buy one for pocket change.

In the other case in that article, it seems Washington had carefully thought out his theft, planning on stealing two shirts from the sale rack with a combined value less than the minimum for a felony. But he screwed up and took two shirts with a higher price. His miscalculation put him over the limit.

To my mind, the fact he planned his theft out so carefully (even though he screwed it up) means he is a habitual thief anyways...

It wouldn't bother me if the legislatures revisited some of these laws and reduced the sentences a bit -- however, I have no problem with the practice of a 3 or 4 strike law imposing long sentences for habitual criminals.

As for Don's statement about stealing a slice of pizza, that's a tough one. I might be willing to go lightly or dismiss cases which involved stealing in order to live. That would depend on individual circumstances. If they're stealing in order to have food because they spent their money on drugs or something else, though, then probably not.
If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

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DanG

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If he, in his own words, "Just needed a jacket." why steal an expensive one? Surely they had a sale rack.

Or go to a thrift shop and (gasp) buy one for pocket change.



You are absolutely right. His choice to steal a $159 jacket instead of a $60 one justifies sending him to prison for life.:S

Just keep in mind that the individual taxpayers will now be paying for his incarceration for decades.


Let him back out on the streets. What do you think he'll do? Stay on the straight and narrow and out of trouble? Given his history, I think not.
There will be no addressing the customers as "Bitches", "Morons" or "Retards"!

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"It's like, hey, this guy's had five chances and he still goes out and commits a crime,"



Hell, if I was convicted of one felony, I'd make damn sure I didn't even commit a misdemeanor after that.

Habitual offenders aren't going to change, they may even escalate their crimes.
Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

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I guess I don't think burgulary is a serious or violent offense, especially when the goods being burgled are of low value.



I disagree. Kicking in the back door of someones house while they are in bed sleeping to steal an xbox and a flat screen is not something to dismiss.

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normiss

Well said sir.
:)



You just agreed to a misrepresentation of the story. He wasn't put in jail for life because he stole a jacket. His criminal history prior AND his final theft of the jacket triggered a constitutionally reviewed and approved law to take action.

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GeorgiaDon

***Another valid question is why shoplifting is a felony. The guy took a $159 jacket. Why should that be considered a felony?

It seems that in Missouri if you have been convicted of two theft-related offenses within the previous 10 years then any new theft is considered a felony, regardless of the value of the stolen goods (link). This is the kind of thing that results in people being sentenced to life for stealing a slice of pizza.

Another issue is that many states have not updated their felony statutes for many years, so minimum dollar amounts that seemed serious 50 years ago are still the threshold today. In Missouri the threshold is $500, but there is a long list of specific items (animals/livestock, firearms, US flags, etc) that automatically are treated as felonies regardless of value. It's a lot more likely that any thief will face a felony charge today than they would have for stealing the exact same item 20 or 30 years ago, just because of inflation.

Don

AND with the private prison culture that LEO, courts, sheriffs etc enjoy bilking the public taxes to protect "the people" it is far more probable that stiff sentencing goes a long ways towards keeping the revenue flowing.

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Did you know that for sentences under one year you stay in the public jail? It's called 11/29. None of your private prison bullshit applies to his first and possible second crime. NEXT it was only after this guys final violation did he get a sentence enough that led him to a PRISON. Louisiana operates 10 prisons only TWO are private prisons, and he is in ANGOLA a STATE OWNED AND OPERATED PRISON.

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Boy howdy!
Local Polk County Sheriff here in central Florida is a very vocal defender of "the system", he points out how many are employed by "the system" on a regular basis, even using it to defend his anti-marijuana legalization stance.
Repeatedly.
With a large side of bullshit information as well.

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Anvilbrother

Did you know that for sentences under one year you stay in the public jail? It's called 11/29. None of your private prison bullshit applies to his first and possible second crime. NEXT it was only after this guys final violation did he get a sentence enough that led him to a PRISON. Louisiana operates 10 prisons only TWO are private prisons, and he is in ANGOLA a STATE OWNED AND OPERATED PRISON.



Perhaps you need updated information???

http://www.propublica.org/article/by-the-numbers-the-u.s.s-growing-for-profit-detention-industry

And.. Shall we revisit this one???

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2012/05/louisiana_is_the_worlds_prison.html

The hidden engine behind the state's well-oiled prison machine is cold, hard cash. A majority of Louisiana inmates are housed in for-profit facilities, which must be supplied with a constant influx of human beings or a $182 million industry will go bankrupt.

Several homegrown private prison companies command a slice of the market. But in a uniquely Louisiana twist, most prison entrepreneurs are rural sheriffs, who hold tremendous sway in remote parishes like Madison, Avoyelles, East Carroll and Concordia. A good portion of Louisiana law enforcement is financed with dollars legally skimmed off the top of prison operations.

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Amazon

***Did you know that for sentences under one year you stay in the public jail? It's called 11/29. None of your private prison bullshit applies to his first and possible second crime. NEXT it was only after this guys final violation did he get a sentence enough that led him to a PRISON. Louisiana operates 10 prisons only TWO are private prisons, and he is in ANGOLA a STATE OWNED AND OPERATED PRISON.



Perhaps you need updated information???

http://www.propublica.org/article/by-the-numbers-the-u.s.s-growing-for-profit-detention-industry

And.. Shall we revisit this one???

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2012/05/louisiana_is_the_worlds_prison.html

The hidden engine behind the state's well-oiled prison machine is cold, hard cash. A majority of Louisiana inmates are housed in for-profit facilities, which must be supplied with a constant influx of human beings or a $182 million industry will go bankrupt.

Several homegrown private prison companies command a slice of the market. But in a uniquely Louisiana twist, most prison entrepreneurs are rural sheriffs, who hold tremendous sway in remote parishes like Madison, Avoyelles, East Carroll and Concordia. A good portion of Louisiana law enforcement is financed with dollars legally skimmed off the top of prison operations.

NONE of that disproves what I said now does is, here is the information you DESPERATELY need.

I said 8/10 are publicly owned and operated here they are.
Allen Correctional Center (private)
Avoyelles Correctional Center
B. B. Rayburn Correctional Center
C. Paul Phelps Correctional Center
David Wade Correctional Center
Dixon Correctional Institute
Elayn Hunt Correctional Center
Louisiana Correctional Institute for Women
Louisiana State Penitentiary, also known as Angola Prison
Winn Correctional Center (Private)



I also stated that Timothy Jackson was sent to angola
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/13/us-prisoners-sentences-life-non-violent-crimes
Quote

A few months later Jackson was convicted of shoplifting and sent to Angola prison in Louisiana.



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Anvilbrother

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I guess I don't think burgulary is a serious or violent offense, especially when the goods being burgled are of low value.



I disagree. Kicking in the back door of someones house while they are in bed sleeping to steal an xbox and a flat screen is not something to dismiss.

I've not seen any post suggesting such a crime is "something to dismiss". Can you point that one out to me?

I really do not understand why many people (some here apparently) can only grasp two alternatives: life without parole or "dismiss". There really is a wide range of possibilities in between. I have no problem with ratcheting up the punishment for "slow learners", but life without parole for a repeat petty offender offers them no opportunity to learn from their mistakes, and is horrendously expensive for society.

"Three strikes" laws and similar "get tough on crime" approaches are certainly politically expedient, but they are laughably simple minded, based on a ridiculous premise, are generally corrosive to society, and usually stem from a mindset that actually contributes to the root causes of crime. They are simple minded because they assume that criminals are adept at planning for the future and make decisions based on long-term interests. They also assume that repeat criminals have a wealth of alternative opportunities that they carefully consider and then reject. They are all stick and no carrot.

They are corrosive and counterproductive because they divert huge amounts of money into the prison system and away from factors that could actually help reduce crime, such as good schools and support for infrastructure to encourage businesses and job creation. It's perverse IMO, that many politicians (and the voters who support them) object to spending money on education, after-school programs to give kids something to do (instead of hanging out and getting into trouble), public transit to help people get to work, etc, but have no limit to the amount of money they are willing to commit to jailing people. Also our habit of criminalizing every transgression (except those generally enjoyed by people with money) has created a whole subculture where kids grow up without a decent male role model because they are all in jail or on probation.

Those same politicians have killed almost all funding for education or job training for inmates, as part of their fervor for "punishment". Often, as well, they make it almost impossible for inmates to actually get a job and support themselves once they are released. Here in Georgia, for example, felons are barred for life from receiving any state license related to employment. The list of occupations for which you must have some sort of a state license is very comprehensive; as a convicted felon you cannot ever be a barber or beautician, any sort of a contractor, a teacher or a doctor or a lawyer, and on and on. If you are lucky you may find a menial job at minimum wage, but even there employers are reluctant to hire anyone with a record, in part because they fear lawsuits and in part because they risk being barred from bidding on government contracts.

Legislators would do well to consider the factors that tend to lead to successful non-criminal lives, and at least try to stop interfering in those factor. I would include:

Kids raised in households with two parents (gender does not matter), or strong support available for single parents.

Affordable access to excellent education at all levels, with a wide variety of career training available. Everyone needs something beyond high school these days, but that does not have to mean only university, there will always be a demand for mechanics, plumbers, electricians etc so good community colleges should be available to every community.

Public investment in infrastructure to attract and keep good employers. This does not mean tax handouts to attract business. However all businesses want to see a decent pool of educated potential employees, good schools and services (so they can attract and keep quality employees), efficient (and safe) transit to ensure employees can get to and from work, and so on.

All these things take thought, hard work, and a willingness to make investments in the long-term needs of the community. However they can work and pay off in the long run. On the other hand, simplistic knee-jerk "all stick, no carrot" prison-oriented approaches have a consistent track record of failure.

Don
_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

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The sentiment here is to downplay the actions of the criminals and make the crimes they commit seem like nothing. Most of what you posted was an excuse and does not place the blame on the actual person doing the crime. This isn't one strike life in prison. This is a modern times judicial reviewed constitutional legally medthod of stopping career criminals who have demonstrated they are incapable of not leading a life of crime. Over 20 states including blue states participate in this from California to Washington. I have no sympathy for the criminals. Don't do the crimes if you cant do the time.

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skypuppy

***

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He didn't just go to long-term prison for stealing a 159 dollar jacket. YOUR STATEMENT, LIKE MANY IS MISLEADING IN THAT YOU DO IMPLY HE WENT TO JAIL FOR JUST ONE OFFENCE.



I'm not implying that. Going to jail for life for stealing four jackets is just as great an injustice as going to jail for life for stealing one.



I was replying to Skydekker

And I'm saying implying or not implying it was one jacket changes nothing. The situation is just as fucked up either way.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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