Yet another mass shooting

[kallend 1,625]

www.washingtonpost.com/national/multiple-fatalities-in-houston-area-shooting/2014/07/09/d3b382b0-07c6-11e4-9ae6-0519a2bd5dfa_story.html

Six dead.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jtiflyer 0]

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-82-shot-14-killed-in-chicago-4th-of-july-weekend-shootings/

not all in one place, but all in the same city with uber strict gun laws.

[kallend 1,625]

jtiflyer

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-82-shot-14-killed-in-chicago-4th-of-july-weekend-shootings/

not all in one place, but all in the same city with uber strict gun laws.

But the day before yesterday he was just another good Texan with a gun.

Tex. Local Gov't Code § 229.001 (2011) would seem to contradict your claim about "uber strict gun laws".

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[normiss 622]

As a society, we really should put forth a little effort to fix our mental health challenges.
We're failing.

[SkyDekker 1,123]

normiss

As a society, we really should put forth a little effort to fix our mental health challenges.
We're failing.

+1

[jclalor 12]

kallend

***http://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-82-shot-14-killed-in-chicago-4th-of-july-weekend-shootings/

not all in one place, but all in the same city with uber strict gun laws.

But the day before yesterday he was just another good Texan with a gun.

Tex. Local Gov't Code § 229.001 (2011) would seem to contradict your claim about "uber strict gun laws".

I'm pretty certain Chicago laws trump Tex. Local Gov't Code 229.001 (2011) every time.

Did you read his link?

[regulator 0]

SkyDekker

***As a society, we really should put forth a little effort to fix our mental health challenges.
We're failing.

+1

I'd like to ask you a question.

How do we as a society begin to make a difference in the mental health area? It seems like if someone is depressed the first thing the dr. Does is issue some psychotropic drug to the patient. While that can't be the only reason for some to lose it, it does play a part. You seem to be rather level headed. How do normal citizens make a difference with such a daunting task at hand?

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Quote

How do we as a society begin to make a difference in the mental health area? It seems like if someone is depressed the first thing the dr. Does is issue some psychotropic drug to the patient. While that can't be the only reason for some to lose it, it does play a part. You seem to be rather level headed. How do normal citizens make a difference with such a daunting task at hand?

I know the question wasn't directed at me, but I'll ignore that part for the moment because it's an interesting question.

I think there are a lot of things that would be nice but are impossible in any biological or legal sense. Brain chemistry is hugely complicated, and there are many many ways that things can get screwed up, and many of those produce similar symptoms. At the moment the approach is to try one drug after another until something is found that works (at least sort of). A problem is that each different drug tinkers with brain chemistry in a different way, so while the right drug may correct the problem the wrong drug (or the right drug in the wrong dose) can create new problems while not treating the original problem. Much better diagnostic techniques would help here, techniques based on biochemistry and neurobiology and not just symptomology. This will require a significant investment in terms of research dollars, at a time when such dollars are being restricted more than any time since the 1950s.

On the legal side, people do not lose their rights because they are mentally ill. Rights can be taken away only if you have committed (and been convicted of) a crime. Unfortunately the great majority of seriously mentally ill people do not recognize that they are ill, and refuse treatment, or don't stick with treatments. Playing into this is the fact that most drugs used to treat serious mental illnesses have severe side effects, which encourages people who don't really believe they are sick to stop taking the drugs. If someone refuses treatment, the only way you can "make" them get treatment is to sign an affidavit that they are an immediate risk to themselves or others. This will get them in for an evaluation, but not guarantee that they will be admitted long term or be forced to take any treatment they don't agree to. What it will guarantee, however, is a life-long stigma that will keep them from exercising certain rights (insert 2nd amendment here) and effectively bar them from many professions. Most family members are extremely reluctant to go this route, except in the most obvious cases of extreme risk of violence, because of the permanent stigma it places on the patient.

Even if the patient agrees to treatment, there is a serious lack of facilities to treat seriously mentally ill people. Also, such treatment is very expensive. However, seriously mentally ill people are generally unable to hold a job, and almost always lack the resources to pay for treatment.

As a result of several of these factors, our jails have become the "treatment facilities" of choice. Once people with mental illness commit a serious crime, they can be incarcerated, and when in jail they can be forced to take medication. Unfortunately jails are not hospitals, they are not equipped to act as mental health treatment centers, they are not funded to do that, and the staff are not trained doctors. So, instead of treating people, we just warehouse them until their sentence is up, then release them, often still with serious problems.

So you ask what can we do? Besides watching for signs of illness in our family, friends, and ourselves, and trying to (gently) intervene before things reach a crisis point, we need (I think) to:
1. Recognize that we all have an interest in effective treatment of mental illness, and insist (including lobbying politicians) that we as a society* invest in research to find good diagnostics and treatments, and provide facilities (hospitals) where those treatments can be given, and
2. Insist that laws be changed to remove the permanent legal stigmas that act to discourage people (and their family/friends) to seek treatment. We do not stigmatize people for life for appendicitis, diabetes, the flu, etc so why do we do that to people with an illness that affects their brain, long after they have been treated?

*I know that some here do not believe in anything like "interests of society", but I think treating mental illness as a commodity, something that should be seen only from a profit perspective, is insane. The problem with depending on the ill to pay full freight for their treatment is that their illness commonly prevents them from keeping a job that would allow them the resources to pay for treatment themselves. The alternative to everybody chipping in is to have people with serious illness running around untreated until they hurt someone, then put them away, which is pretty much what we do now.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Channman 2]

Yes, tragically ISIS is still on a killing spree.

[SkyDekker 1,123]

regulator

******As a society, we really should put forth a little effort to fix our mental health challenges.
We're failing.

+1

I'd like to ask you a question.

How do we as a society begin to make a difference in the mental health area? It seems like if someone is depressed the first thing the dr. Does is issue some psychotropic drug to the patient. While that can't be the only reason for some to lose it, it does play a part. You seem to be rather level headed. How do normal citizens make a difference with such a daunting task at hand?

Unfortunately I don't think there is an easy answer to this question. Further, the current political climate in the US greatly hinders any change.

I have found that North American medicin tends to be focussed more on treatment of symptoms than truly spending time to find and treat a cause. This isn't something just focussed on mental health though.

Yo as a society can make a difference by making (mental) health care much more accesible and affordable. As a soceity we all have to work (this by far isn't a north american issue alone) on taking the stigma away from mental health issues. As an example, people with a clinical depression have an illnes, a disorder, they can't just get better by smiling and laughing more. Telling them to do so certainly isn't helpful. You wouldn't tell a person with a broken leg to just walk and run more...

Lastly, you could look at putting better and/or more restrictions on gun possession for those with (certain) mental health disorders. I know that is an extremely touchy subject, one which also doesn't have an easy solution.

In the end, it is all a trade off. Only society as a whole can decide what is acceptable and what is not.

[kallend 1,625]

jclalor

******http://www.cbsnews.com/news/report-82-shot-14-killed-in-chicago-4th-of-july-weekend-shootings/

not all in one place, but all in the same city with uber strict gun laws.

But the day before yesterday he was just another good Texan with a gun.

Tex. Local Gov't Code § 229.001 (2011) would seem to contradict your claim about "uber strict gun laws".

I'm pretty certain Chicago laws trump Tex. Local Gov't Code 229.001 (2011) every time.

Did you read his link?

Contrary to uninformed opinion in SC, guns in Chicago have been legal since 2010 and concealed carry is also now legal in Illinois. So his post really doesn't make the point he wanted it to make.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,625]

normiss

As a society, we really should put forth a little effort to fix our mental health challenges.
We're failing.

There is no reason to believe that Australia has fewer mentally ill people (per capita) than the USA, yet Oz hasn't had a mass shooting since 1996, when they tightened the gun laws there.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skypuppy 1]

kallend

***As a society, we really should put forth a little effort to fix our mental health challenges.
We're failing.

There is no reason to believe that Australia has fewer mentally ill people (per capita) than the USA, yet Oz hasn't had a mass shooting since 1996, when they tightened the gun laws there.

Childers Palace Fire - In June 2000, drifter and con-artist Robert Long started a fire at the Childers Palace backpackers hostel that killed 15 people.
Monash University shooting - In October 2002, Huan Yun Xiang, a student, shot his classmates and teacher, killing two and injuring five.
Churchill Fire - 10 confirmed deaths due to a deliberately lit fire. The fire was lit on 7th of February 2009.[6]
Quakers Hill Nursing Home Fire - 10 confirmed and as many as 21 people may have died as a result of a deliberately lit fire in a Quakers Hill nursing home. The fire was lit early on 18th of November 2011.[7]

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[lawrocket 3]

regulator

******As a society, we really should put forth a little effort to fix our mental health challenges.
We're failing.

+1

I'd like to ask you a question.

How do we as a society begin to make a difference in the mental health area? It seems like if someone is depressed the first thing the dr. Does is issue some psychotropic drug to the patient. While that can't be the only reason for some to lose it, it does play a part. You seem to be rather level headed. How do normal citizens make a difference with such a daunting task at hand?

The first thing we do is put out there that if a person is depressed, that person will lose rights and privileges. So if you are feeling on edge and think you could use some help, do yourself a favor and don't tell anybody. Not a friend, a counselor, or a shrink. Because if you do, then you're going to have your guns taken. And that private pilot's license or ATP license for your job will be taken. And if you have a security clearance, it'll be lost, as well. And you'll spend the rest of your life being that scary loser who couldn't keep it together after your wife was killed in a car crash.

Meanwhile, there is another case about a guy with a history or violence and more than one restraining order who is pissed at his wife and goes to kill the family of a friend. And some may ask, "Why, had he only received help from a doctor then this would have been prevented."

Sorry. Doctors don't treat bad-to-the-bone evil. This guy had no right to a gun, but had one. Restraining orders didn't mean anything to him. And he had the time to tie up all those people and execute them.

Who here thinks that a hospital was the right place for this guy? If you think that a hospital was NOT the right place and maybe a jail or prison was, then mental health has nothing to do with it.

Ps - ever notice that it's always the white guys that get the "mental health" thing? Any other color and it's a cultural or an evil thing. White guys - they are the ones who needed mental health help.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kelpdiver 2]

kallend

There is no reason to believe that Australia has fewer mentally ill people (per capita) than the USA, yet Oz hasn't had a mass shooting since 1996, when they tightened the gun laws there.

And what is the population of Australia? It's comical how you jump from rate to simple count. And someone already pointed out the substitution made with fires.

[DanG 1]

Quote

The first thing we do is put out there that if a person is depressed, that person will lose rights and privileges. So if you are feeling on edge and think you could use some help, do yourself a favor and don't tell anybody. Not a friend, a counselor, or a shrink. Because if you do, then you're going to have your guns taken. And that private pilot's license or ATP license for your job will be taken. And if you have a security clearance, it'll be lost, as well. And you'll spend the rest of your life being that scary loser who couldn't keep it together after your wife was killed in a car crash.

We already do that. The question was, how do you make things better?

- Dan G

[regulator 0]

lawrocket

*********As a society, we really should put forth a little effort to fix our mental health challenges.
We're failing.

+1

I'd like to ask you a question.

How do we as a society begin to make a difference in the mental health area? It seems like if someone is depressed the first thing the dr. Does is issue some psychotropic drug to the patient. While that can't be the only reason for some to lose it, it does play a part. You seem to be rather level headed. How do normal citizens make a difference with such a daunting task at hand?

The first thing we do is put out there that if a person is depressed, that person will lose rights and privileges. So if you are feeling on edge and think you could use some help, do yourself a favor and don't tell anybody. Not a friend, a counselor, or a shrink. Because if you do, then you're going to have your guns taken. And that private pilot's license or ATP license for your job will be taken. And if you have a security clearance, it'll be lost, as well. And you'll spend the rest of your life being that scary loser who couldn't keep it together after your wife was killed in a car crash.

Meanwhile, there is another case about a guy with a history or violence and more than one restraining order who is pissed at his wife and goes to kill the family of a friend. And some may ask, "Why, had he only received help from a doctor then this would have been prevented."

Sorry. Doctors don't treat bad-to-the-bone evil. This guy had no right to a gun, but had one. Restraining orders didn't mean anything to him. And he had the time to tie up all those people and execute them.

Who here thinks that a hospital was the right place for this guy? If you think that a hospital was NOT the right place and maybe a jail or prison was, then mental health has nothing to do with it.

Ps - ever notice that it's always the white guys that get the "mental health" thing? Any other color and it's a cultural or an evil thing. White guys - they are the ones who needed mental health help.


I agree with what you said. And honestly my wife and myself have had a rough time in the past week. I have been pretty damn low and never thought of killing myself, because that's never been a real solution. But I've been depressed and now that I have my CHL I feel that I can't tell anyone else about my troubles because of any possible repercussions. I find I have to analyze myself and come up with my own solution because of what could happen if I did reach out to the wrong person.

[regulator 0]

kallend

***As a society, we really should put forth a little effort to fix our mental health challenges.
We're failing.

There is no reason to believe that Australia has fewer mentally ill people (per capita) than the USA, yet Oz hasn't had a mass shooting since 1996, when they tightened the gun laws there.

Kallend,

In order for the USA to duplicate the model OZ has there will have to be a door to door gun confiscation by some type of government officials. Are you honestly naive enough to think that won't cause the next american revolution? Tell me how you think going door to door in every house in the entire united states and ATTEMPTING to confiscate between 100 up to 300 MILLION firearms will actually work. I'll tell you right now...it won't.

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

The question was, how do you make things better?

Better is subjective. Obviously, the mentally ill are stigmatized as all being ticking time bombs because plenty of people in power think that not only is it better that way, but we need to do far more to punish the mentally ill, such as strip protections of HIPAA.

IT's just like anything else, Dan. What we've been doing has not only NOT worked but has more likely than not made it worse. We've just had a poster who has said that he is deciding not to seek help because of the consequences. Meanwhile, we have people arguing for more access to mental health and more punishment for those who use it.

I'm actually thinking that it is time to make the mentally ill a protected class.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[DanG 1]

Quote

I'm actually thinking that it is time to make the mentally ill a protected class.

Maybe they should be covered under the ADA.

That's what I think everyone is looking for, ideas on how to improve the situation. Here are the problems as I see them:

1. Mental illness is stigmatized (socially and legally) to the point that people don't want to seek treatment.
2. Many people with mental illness need treatment.
3. People with certain mental illnesses should not have weapons, fly airplanes, drive trucks, etc., but the current system doesn't distinguish different types of illnesses, it just lumps them all together.

Your idea of making mental illness a protected class addresses problem 1. Do you have any ideas on addressing problems 2 and 3?

- Dan G

[kallend 1,625]

kelpdiver

***
There is no reason to believe that Australia has fewer mentally ill people (per capita) than the USA, yet Oz hasn't had a mass shooting since 1996, when they tightened the gun laws there.

And what is the population of Australia? It's comical how you jump from rate to simple count. And someone already pointed out the substitution made with fires.

Umm - do you know the meaning of "per capita"?

Here, I'll help you:

Per capita: A Latin term that translates into "by head," basically meaning "average per person."

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

DanG

Quote

I'm actually thinking that it is time to make the mentally ill a protected class.

Maybe they should be covered under the ADA.

That's what I think everyone is looking for, ideas on how to improve the situation. Here are the problems as I see them:

1. Mental illness is stigmatized (socially and legally) to the point that people don't want to seek treatment.
2. Many people with mental illness need treatment.
3. People with certain mental illnesses should not have weapons, fly airplanes, drive trucks, etc., but the current system doesn't distinguish different types of illnesses, it just lumps them all together.

Your idea of making mental illness a protected class addresses problem 1. Do you have any ideas on addressing problems 2 and 3?

Here's one major problem, as I see it: the law does not in any way reflect the realities of mental illness. Not at all. Look at the insanity defense - based on the old M'Naughten rule that requires that the person not be able to recognize the wrongfulness of the act. This is a holdover court-developed doctrine from England in the 1840s.

The law is based upon an 1840s understanding of mental illness. Fortunately, the Model Penal Code provided an element where insanity could be shown by proving an inability to conform one's conduct to requirements of the law. But the MPC approach is used in less than half the states. Here in California, the irresistable impulse test isn't available. It's the old M'Naughten rule. Some states (like kansas and Idaho) don't even have an insanity defense.

Over the last 30 years there has been a political move away from insanity (John Hinckley, Jr. was a pivotal moment). Insanity is harder to prove and is frequently abandoned.

Add to that the following every day scenario: Joe is a schizophrenic and living alone in an apartment. He experiences an episode where voices convince him he is Jesus and must baptize children to save them. So he takes a car with two kids in it from a gas station when the mom goes inside to pay for gas and drives it to a fountain where he is to baptize them. He is arrested and charged with two counts of kidnapping, a count of carjacking, two more of assault and battery, another for grand theft... You get the picture.

Now he faces 25 years to life in prison. He wants to plead NGRI (not guilty by reason of insanity). But since he knew it was against the law, it won't work. He pleas down and gets 15 years in prison.

Or, a guy who is schizophrenic thinks that another person at a bus stop is calling him a fag. An argument ensues, and the schizophrenic man who has been battling voices calling him a fag snaps and punches the other guy in the face. He's arrested and charged with felony battery, etc. He faces 15 years in prison. Prosecutors offer him a deal - 5 years in prison. His public defender levels with him - he could win an NGRI verdict, but then he'll be confined to a hospital - possibly for life. Guy decides to plea to prison. He's in prison, not getting much treatment. Then he's released after three years and we have another schizophrenic on the street without treatment. Repeat.

This is what policy does. It treats the ill like criminals. Medical problems cannot be cured by prison. Thanks to stigma, this is what is desired. The guy who shot Gabby Giffords - everybody knows the guy is a loon, but most want him in prison. Medicate him until he is sane enough stand trial for capital murder. Then put him in prison and hopefully execute him.

How many of these people are crazy as all hell and everybody knows it. But - people want them in prison. Who thinks that the guy who shot up the Aurora theater was sane? But - they'll want him in prison.

This guy in Texas? I think he's just an evil guy. Same with the kid who killed the people in Isla Vista. The DC Sniper - evil. Oklahoma Bomber - evil. Prison worthy.

Re: "People with certain mental illnesses should not have weapons, fly airplanes, drive trucks, etc., but the current system doesn't distinguish different types of illnesses, it just lumps them all together"

My solution? Quit lumping them together. If a pilot is depressed because her husband just died, it may be not only understandable but also preferable for her to actually get some treatment. As opposed to going untreated and flying passengers, which is what policy today encourages.

Do we want bipolar people flying? Depends. If they are being managed then I have no trouble with it. If a person is getting treated, reports it and is being managed, it seems to me to be far less risky than not being treated.

It means that it takes work. The FAA/NTSB will have to get itself up to speed. As will the lawmakers. Which means it's not going to happen.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rehmwa 2]

kallend

Umm - do you know the meaning of "per capita"?

it is hardly at all related to "per decapita"

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kelpdiver 2]

kallend

******
There is no reason to believe that Australia has fewer mentally ill people (per capita) than the USA, yet Oz hasn't had a mass shooting since 1996, when they tightened the gun laws there.

And what is the population of Australia? It's comical how you jump from rate to simple count. And someone already pointed out the substitution made with fires.

Umm - do you know the meaning of "per capita"?

Here, I'll help you:

Per capita: A Latin term that translates into "by head," basically meaning "average per person."

Correct, so if you multiple the 3 mass killings that skypuppy referenced and applied the 14x per capita multiplier, you'd see Australia had a US equivalent of 42 mass killings since the ban began. That sounds a bit less successful than the 0 you trumpeted out as proof of something. I've had zero deaths or even accidental discharges in my household too! A perfect per capita rate. But if I (or Australia) has a single incident, that rate rockets upto or beyond the US one, making the comparison statistically invalid.

As for your assumption that mental health disorder rates would be consistent between the two, the WHO seems to disagree, citing the US as having a markedly higher rate than the norm (2004). Couple that with our predisposition to solve all problems with pills, and that assumption grows even weaker.