Former NSA contractor Snowden leaves Hong Kong for Moscow

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

Why do you say that France and Germany are hypocrites, they have declined Snowden's application for asylum. It seems like a bizarre move by Iceland seeing as they are still on the ropes financially I'd have thought that pissing off the USA would not be in their national interest. I think that his current situation shows that Snowden really didn't think this through at all and he is beginning to strike me as one of those guys who is great at IT but pretty much a idiot when it comes to the rest of life.

Calling them hypocrites had nothing to do with Snowden's request for protection. I called them hypocrites for browbeating the US for actions they perform themselves.

French Decry U.S. Surveillance Programs, Are Discovered To Have Their Own Surveillance Program

French minister dresses down U.S. at July 4 fete

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[ryoder 1,384]

Nicaragua & Venezuela have offered asylum: http://news.yahoo.com/nicaragua-venezuela-offer-asylum-snowden-003705832.html

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Andy9o8 0]

ryoder

Nicaragua & Venezuela have offered asylum: http://news.yahoo.com/nicaragua-venezuela-offer-asylum-snowden-003705832.html

And now Bolivia, too.

Of course, the US anticipated this, and has demonstrated that it will do everything it can to intimidate other countries into denying fly-over rights. (Good thing the US doesn't have a reputation for being an international bully.)

As of now, he can access Pacific international airspace via Russia-to-China; then trans-Pacific to Nicaragua; thence Atlantic international airspace to Venezuela.

With this development, there may also be a counter-snowball effect, as other countries might become willing to allow asylum. The US antagonized a lot of Latin American countries (just like the good ole daze!) by orchestrating the Bolivian President's aircraft's involuntary diversion and "temporary non-detention detention" in Austria. Don't be surprised if, say, Argentina and possibly Uruguay join the list.

[ryoder 1,384]

Andy9o8

And now Bolivia, too.

Hmmm...Bolivia didn't work out so well for Butch and Sundance.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Andy9o8 0]

ryoder

***
And now Bolivia, too.

Hmmm...Bolivia didn't work out so well for Butch and Sundance.

Imagine Butch as a student's jumpmaster:
"Whattsa matter kid?"
"We're flying over water. I can't swim."
"BWAHAHAHAA! Hell, the fall will probably kill ya!"

[sfzombie13 307]

actually, he thought it out pretty well, then it looks like he talked to some people and they helped change his mind. at first, he said he was willing to stand by his actions and take the consequences(or some shit), then you hear of him asking for asylum in different places. sounds like he started listening to assange or that dumb ass reporter. now of course this is just an opinion.

and i've been thinking about it a lot lately, and i think that my oath to uphold and defend the constitution would also require me to rat out anybody who was clearly violating it so overtly. it would be like not following an unlawful order.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[Croc 0]

I took that oath 44 years ago; I don't recall it requiring me to rat out anyone for any reason.

Has it changed?

"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

[Andy9o8 0]

Croc

I took that oath 44 years ago; I don't recall it requiring me to rat out anyone for any reason.

Has it changed?

Ah, deft use of the word "require". Change the verb to "allow" and the inquiry is a bit more neutrally-phrased. Anyone who reads the oath can see that its requirements neither specify nor rule out specific means or methods.

Anyhow, No, the oath has not changed. But one way, of many, of preserving and defending the Constitution is by shedding light on those who violate it. When it's done by members or agents of the government, it's a form of official corruption under the cover of the cloak of power, every bit as much as, say, taking or extorting a bribe is official corruption. And just because someone who violates the Constitution does so while wrapped in the cloak of government does not mean that he is thereby immunized from public exposure.

[turtlespeed 212]

Andy9o8

***I took that oath 44 years ago; I don't recall it requiring me to rat out anyone for any reason.

Has it changed?

Ah, deft use of the word "require". Change the verb to "allow" and the inquiry is a bit more neutrally-phrased. Anyone who reads the oath can see that its requirements neither specify nor rule out specific means or methods.

Anyhow, No, the oath has not changed. But one way, of many, of preserving and defending the Constitution is by shedding light on those who violate it. When it's done by members or agents of the government, it's a form of official corruption under the cover of the cloak of power, every bit as much as, say, taking or extorting a bribe is official corruption. And just because someone who violates the Constitution does so while wrapped in the cloak of government does not mean that he is thereby immunized from public exposure.

Ahhhh - so you are saying Snowden took bribes!

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[sfzombie13 307]

the one i took said that i would protect and defend the constitution of the united states of america. if the govt is not abiding by the constitution, then they should be stopped. if the only way to stop them is to publicize it, then so be it. and i am sincerely glad that i don't have to make the decision as to whether or not i have to.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[melch 0]

Quote

if the govt is not abiding by the constitution,

Herein is the problem with Snowden's 'reason' for spilling secrets in the first place. Please find substantial proof that anything the NSA has done anything to violate the Constitutional rights of the American people. That is to say, substantial proof that is not a semantical argument by someone who has a strong but uninformed opinion.

On the other hand feel free to utilize:
Executive Order 12333
US Codes: Title 10, Title 18, Title 32, Title 50
Patriot Act (an abhoration of a law)
Eric Holden's (THE US Attorney) address to Northwestern Law univerity (really scary when he starts talking about Due Process vs Judicial process)

to understand that they have done nothing illegal because as long as they have a Purpose & a Mission they are allowed to collect information. Immoral, perhaps (its debatable), but not illegal. People want to bitch about it all but the first thing they should be doing is lobbying fellow constituents to write their representatives and senators to repeal some of these laws *cough*patriot act*cough*. If you feel that a letter or phone call won't do much and your democratic rights are being ignored then call up an activist group that has the money and power to lobby the correct people.

Snowden, like Manning, was, is, and forever shall be a punk. I'm personally glad he's stuck in an airport (for now) and the fact that he has accepted the help of a man also seeking asylum due to accusations of child porn/molestation tells me all I need to know about his character.

[normiss 622]

Whoa!
Don't be coming in here with facts, honor, and legalities!
This is SC!

[sfzombie13 307]

now, the last time i checked, the 4th amendment prohibited illegal search and seizure. and i have also heard that the govt is not supposed to be allowed to record your telephone calls (if you're a citizen of the us) without a court order. but i may be wrong about this, i have not researched it, nor am i a lawyer. and we all know that just being able to read is not the way the law works.

i wholeheartedly agree that the patriot act should be repealed, however, until that happens, i am behind this guy 100%. manning is an entirely different story. he should have gathered specific evidence of what he considered to be crimes. then if he were not comfortable with his chain of command (and i don't blame him for not being comfortable), then he should have went to a reputable news source and remained anonymous. they can still do that you know.

i am truly sorry that you feel like the govt is following the constitution, or that you may feel that it is ok for them to do this to us. the whole purpose of the oversight and checks and balances designed into the constitution is so that we can prevent shit like this.

i don't assume to have any privacy on a phone call which is basically just a radio, nor do i assume any privacy on something i send over the internet. if i were planning on doing something i shouldn't be, i would scramble my phone calls and encrypt my email. but that doesn't mean i am not outraged at the operation of this unconstitutional practice which cannot be struck down by the courts because it is too secret to have looked at by real oversight.

_________________________________________
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

[normiss 622]

Man....no way in hell would I want to live in Venezuela.

He thought the US gooberment was bad, wait till he gets his new shack, no job, and no money!
Although given the crime there, my bet is he will disappear....

[NorrinRadd 0]

normiss

Man....no way in hell would I want to live in Venezuela.

He thought the US gooberment was bad, wait till he gets his new shack, no job, and no money!
Although given the crime there, my bet is he will disappear....

There are parts of the US that are no better than Venezuela! Shacks, no jobs, no money, high crime...
As for no money... once he settles down somewhere I am sure someone will offer him money for book rights or some such thing.
It takes courage to stand up for what you believe is the right thing. I wish we had someone like that exposing some of Harper's government here in Canada...
Remember, just because the state thinks it is wrong, doesn't make it wrong. And just because the state thinks it is right, doesn't mean it is automatically right.

Why drive myself crazy trying to be normal, when I am already at crazy?

[Kennedy 0]

melch

Quote

if the govt is not abiding by the constitution,

Herein is the problem with Snowden's 'reason' for spilling secrets in the first place. Please find substantial proof that anything the NSA has done anything to violate the Constitutional rights of the American people. That is to say, substantial proof that is not a semantical argument by someone who has a strong but uninformed opinion.

On the other hand feel free to utilize:
Executive Order 12333
US Codes: Title 10, Title 18, Title 32, Title 50
Patriot Act (an abhoration of a law)
Eric Holden's (THE US Attorney) address to Northwestern Law univerity (really scary when he starts talking about Due Process vs Judicial process)

to understand that they have done nothing illegal because as long as they have a Purpose & a Mission they are allowed to collect information. Immoral, perhaps (its debatable), but not illegal. People want to bitch about it all but the first thing they should be doing is lobbying fellow constituents to write their representatives and senators to repeal some of these laws *cough*patriot act*cough*. If you feel that a letter or phone call won't do much and your democratic rights are being ignored then call up an activist group that has the money and power to lobby the correct people.

Snowden, like Manning, was, is, and forever shall be a punk. I'm personally glad he's stuck in an airport (for now) and the fact that he has accepted the help of a man also seeking asylum due to accusations of child porn/molestation tells me all I need to know about his character.

If te president and atty general say its ok, then it's not illegal. That doesn't mean it isn't unconstitutional.

Also, Snowden has apparently accepted the Venezuelan offer. It's on drudge, businessinsider, and other sites.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[lawrocket 3]

[Reply]Please find substantial proof that anything the NSA has done anything to violate the Constitutional rights of the American people

[ryoder 1,384]

Kennedy

Also, Snowden has apparently accepted the Venezuelan offer. It's on drudge, businessinsider, and other sites.

Well, maybe:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/07/09/200382725/is-he-or-isnt-he-much-confusion-over-snowden-venezuela

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Skyrad 0]

Snowden has changed nothing other than his future. What a prick.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[NorrinRadd 0]

Skyrad

Snowden has changed nothing other than his future. What a prick.

It seems to me the real pricks are those who were spying on their own people and violating their privacies. The NSA got caught engaging in some real Soviet style violations of freedom.

Why drive myself crazy trying to be normal, when I am already at crazy?

[normiss 622]

Take it up with the administration that LEGALLY allowed for such actions.

[Andy9o8 0]

Skyrad

Snowden has changed nothing

The student-of-history in me is not so sure about that.

[NorrinRadd 0]

normiss

Take it up with the administration that LEGALLY allowed for such actions.

All the violations the Soviet government did were in accordance with their laws, too.

Why drive myself crazy trying to be normal, when I am already at crazy?

[normiss 622]

I don't think the US is a Communist country.
























yet.

[NorrinRadd 0]

normiss

I don't think the US is a Communist country.

























yet.

And strangely, they use communist style tactics of monitoring and citizen watching.
The term is "authoritarian". And you don't have to be communist to be authoritarian.

Why drive myself crazy trying to be normal, when I am already at crazy?