quade 3
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jcd11235 0
lawrocketHere the admin isn't looking to ask questions. This admin is spying on journalists to get to the leaks. And bringing charges against the journalists.
What charges have been brought against the reporter?
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DanGQuoteGoing after journalists and pursuing criminal charges against them for publishing leaks?
What were the criminal charges pursued in the present case?
I didn't say "pressing criminal charges." I wrote "pursuing criminal charges."
You know? Search warrants. Listing a journalist as a "conspirator" with prospective ten years in prison? Did you read the warrant declaration? I did. I believe charges can still be brought against him.
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quade 3
But how else could you write the warrant?
Doesn't it have to include the possibility that the guy is an honest to goodness really working for a foreign government agency type spy?
And if not . . . how would you word it.
Doesn't it have to include the possibility that the guy is an honest to goodness really working for a foreign government agency type spy?
And if not . . . how would you word it.
quade -
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[Reply]Why not just go full Godwin and invoke Hitler?
You just did. And no, I won't make that comparison. Nixon? Yeah. It's looking Nixonian.
I personally don't think the President was involved in the IRS thing. But, as I've frequently said on here, shit rolls uphill. He's got the bully pulpit. He's out there as the Prez. It happened under his watch.
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[Reply]But how else could you write the warrant?
Oh, don't know. Maybe issue a subpoena and give the journalist a chance to object. Maybe be an investigator and say, "hey. Mind if I ask you some questions about this guy?"
You know, the old fashioned way? The way it used to be done.
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quade 3
I see. So if the local dog catcher stops you while walking down the street because he thinks some shih tzu owners haven't paid their license fees . . . Obama is Nixon.
I guess that makes sense.
I guess that makes sense.
quade -
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jcd11235 0
jcd11235***Here the admin isn't looking to ask questions. This admin is spying on journalists to get to the leaks. And bringing charges against the journalists.
What charges have been brought against the reporter?
The silence is deafening.
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quade 3
lawrocket[Reply]But how else could you write the warrant?
Oh, don't know. Maybe issue a subpoena and give the journalist a chance to object. Maybe be an investigator and say, "hey. Mind if I ask you some questions about this guy?"
You know, the old fashioned way? The way it used to be done.
And if the guy is really a spy . . . haven't you just tipped your hand and allowed him to escape?
quade -
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quade 3
jcd11235******Here the admin isn't looking to ask questions. This admin is spying on journalists to get to the leaks. And bringing charges against the journalists.
What charges have been brought against the reporter?
The silence is deafening.
That's weird, because all I'm hearing is the sound of a dead horse being beaten.
quade -
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Kennedy 0
quadeBut how else could you write the warrant?
Doesn't it have to include the possibility that the guy is an honest to goodness really working for a foreign government agency type spy?
And if not . . . how would you word it.
You don't need to be the suspect in order to be the target of a search warrant. Lets say I'm a fed. I have PC to believe that Bill is planning to blow up a building. I have PC to believe he hid the explosives in your house. I think you don't even know about it. So even if you're completely innocent of any wrongdoing and not involved at all, I can present PC to a magistrate and get a warrant to search every millimeter of your house.
Same principle applies here. Getting a warrant for email is just as easy. Relate it to the investigation of the leaker. You know, the guy who actually broke the law. You don't have to intimidate every reporter in town just to gather evidence.
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Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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jakee 1,255
QuoteHey, we've also got the most painless executions on the planet, too.
Doubtful. I'm pretty sure a decent long-drop hangman or firing squad beats lethal injection or ol' sparky.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?
jcd11235******Here the admin isn't looking to ask questions. This admin is spying on journalists to get to the leaks. And bringing charges against the journalists.
What charges have been brought against the reporter?
The silence is deafening.
There haven't been charges brought. There was a declaration with charges pursued listing him as a co-conspirator.
I read on some journal that in history there had been three people charged under the Espionage Act but that six have been charged in the present admin. Of course, this may be inaccurate.
And - I thought I had written "pursued" charges. If I wrote "bringing charges" - which it appears I did - bad choice of words. And no, charges haven't been brought. Not yet.
Note: yes, I do have work. So if I take two or three hours to respond, there's a reason.
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champu 1
jcd11235 0
lawrocketThere haven't been charges brought. There was a declaration with charges pursued listing him as a co-conspirator.
I read on some journal that in history there had been three people charged under the Espionage Act but that six have been charged in the present admin. Of course, this may be inaccurate.
And - I thought I had written "pursued" charges. If I wrote "bringing charges" - which it appears I did - bad choice of words. And no, charges haven't been brought. Not yet.
Rosen's (alleged) actions do appear to be a violation of 18 USC § 793. Referring to him as a co-conspirator, for the purpose of the investigation, seems to accurately describe his actions under § 793. That he was a reporter working on a story means he probably won't be prosecuted for a crime, according to the legal reasoning presented in the ACS blog post linked to upthread.
Rosen's status as reporter should make him effectively immune from prosecution for his actions, not from investigation. A balance between national security and freedom of the press has to be found when the two interests are opposed. A thorough investigation helps strike that balance in each individual case.
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kallend 1,623
Gravitymaster******Keep it up and they might remove your posts.
and audit his taxes
Nah, we will have to wait until a Republican gets the Presidency and sics the IRS on liberal groups and alphabet news organizations. Then he will get outraged.
IMHO none of them, liberal, conservative, middle of the road... should be exempt from taxes.
Every $ not paid by a tax exempt organization has to be covered by another taxpayer.
...
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kallend*********Keep it up and they might remove your posts.
and audit his taxes
Nah, we will have to wait until a Republican gets the Presidency and sics the IRS on liberal groups and alphabet news organizations. Then he will get outraged.
IMHO none of them, liberal, conservative, middle of the road... should be exempt from taxes.
Every $ not paid by a tax exempt organization has to be covered by another taxpayer.
Talk about missing the point.
kallend*********Keep it up and they might remove your posts.
and audit his taxes
Nah, we will have to wait until a Republican gets the Presidency and sics the IRS on liberal groups and alphabet news organizations. Then he will get outraged.
IMHO none of them, liberal, conservative, middle of the road... should be exempt from taxes.
Every $ not paid by a tax exempt organization has to be covered by another taxpayer.
Agreed.
Kennedy 0
First, lets put 793d on record, so everyone can see it
Next, let's clear up the difference between conspiracy, aiding and abetting, and soliciting.
Conspiracy is an agreement between two or more people to commit an illegal act, along with an intent to achieve the agreement's goal. That means two people agreeing to commit a crime together. Not what happened here.
Aiding and abetting is to help someone else commit a crime. An aider and abettor is a helper who is present at a crime scene but in a passive role, such as acting as a lookout. That means assisting a person in committing a crime, but in a lesser role. No what happened here.
Solicitation is requesting, encouraging, or inducing another to commit a crime. Bingo.
The reporter solicited illegal action. He did not conspire, and in no way did he aid or abet. For completeness, I'll also point out that the reporter was not an accessory after the fact. If anyone can dispel me of this understanding using legal definitions (not your uncommon "common sense") then I'll happily change my tune. Until then, this is worse than declaring unindicted co-conspirators, which if you'll check the US ADA's guidebook, is both bad policy and frowned upon by the courts.
Does anyone see the word solicitation in 793? I sure don't. Quade, jcd, et al, are you ready to admit you're wrong?
Quote(d) Whoever, lawfully having possession of, access to, control over, or being entrusted with any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it on demand to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it;
Next, let's clear up the difference between conspiracy, aiding and abetting, and soliciting.
Conspiracy is an agreement between two or more people to commit an illegal act, along with an intent to achieve the agreement's goal. That means two people agreeing to commit a crime together. Not what happened here.
Aiding and abetting is to help someone else commit a crime. An aider and abettor is a helper who is present at a crime scene but in a passive role, such as acting as a lookout. That means assisting a person in committing a crime, but in a lesser role. No what happened here.
Solicitation is requesting, encouraging, or inducing another to commit a crime. Bingo.
The reporter solicited illegal action. He did not conspire, and in no way did he aid or abet. For completeness, I'll also point out that the reporter was not an accessory after the fact. If anyone can dispel me of this understanding using legal definitions (not your uncommon "common sense") then I'll happily change my tune. Until then, this is worse than declaring unindicted co-conspirators, which if you'll check the US ADA's guidebook, is both bad policy and frowned upon by the courts.
Does anyone see the word solicitation in 793? I sure don't. Quade, jcd, et al, are you ready to admit you're wrong?
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
Kennedy 0
QuoteIMHO none of them, liberal, conservative, middle of the road... should be exempt from taxes.
Every $ not paid by a tax exempt organization has to be covered by another taxpayer.
I happen to agree with you, but we have to deal with the law as it is, not as we wish it to be. If you want it changed, work to get it changed. Until then, the law needs to be applied as written and equally to all parties.
witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*
>>excerpt from page 20 which is an e-mail they recovered
It's a reporter looking for a scoop. It's what they do. "Hey - here's a story I'm trying to get. Got any info I can use?""
Take a look at haro.com. I've been sourced a few times with it.
I put a quote by the trial judge in the Pentagon Papers case. I'll restate it:
"The security of the Nation is not at the ramparts alone. Security also lies in the value of our free institutions. A cantankerous press, an obstinate press, an ubiquitous press must be suffered by those in authority in order to preserve the even greater values of freedom of expression and the right of the people to know."
I agree with this. Those with access to information have the duty to zip their lips. The reporter? Doing his job.
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It's a reporter looking for a scoop. It's what they do. "Hey - here's a story I'm trying to get. Got any info I can use?""
Take a look at haro.com. I've been sourced a few times with it.
I put a quote by the trial judge in the Pentagon Papers case. I'll restate it:
"The security of the Nation is not at the ramparts alone. Security also lies in the value of our free institutions. A cantankerous press, an obstinate press, an ubiquitous press must be suffered by those in authority in order to preserve the even greater values of freedom of expression and the right of the people to know."
I agree with this. Those with access to information have the duty to zip their lips. The reporter? Doing his job.
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>>>very $ not paid by a tax exempt organization has to be covered by another taxpayer.
Or one can look at it as every dollar not paid to the government it a dollar that shouldn't be spent.
I actually talked to a local tea party guy. The local Tea Party - get this - is set up as a for-profit corporation. They did it to avoid all the stuff with non-profits and play corporate taxes.
They decided it was easier to pay taxes and bitch about it than not pay taxes and deal with the rest of the shit that goes with non-profit.
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Or one can look at it as every dollar not paid to the government it a dollar that shouldn't be spent.
I actually talked to a local tea party guy. The local Tea Party - get this - is set up as a for-profit corporation. They did it to avoid all the stuff with non-profits and play corporate taxes.
They decided it was easier to pay taxes and bitch about it than not pay taxes and deal with the rest of the shit that goes with non-profit.
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champu 1
KennedyQuote...willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it...
Aiding and abetting is to help someone else commit a crime. An aider and abettor is a helper who is present at a crime scene but in a passive role, such as acting as a lookout. That means assisting a person in committing a crime, but in a lesser role. No what happened here.
Just to be clear... I'm asserting the existence of a line. I don't necessarily think the reporter in this case crossed it. I actually don't think there's enough information in the affidavit to say, but there are people that are saying hands down reporters are in the clear and I simply don't think that's the case. The precedent is important to understand regardless of which way the pendulum swings.
So, devil's advocating it up a bit here...
It would depend on the physical access restrictions in place for the system the person was accessing (e.g. no ability to print, disabled media drives, bags subject to search on exit, etc.), but if you planned a phone call with the cleared individual and you could be reasonably expected to know that the information you were going to receive was classified, then being on the other end of the phone while the person reads the information to you could be considered aiding and abetting. My reasoning being you are actively involved in the removal of the information and circumvention of security measures.
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