A foreign view of America

[kelpdiver 2]

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Forget the strawman. I alluded to facts as they've pertained to my country. Now I'll specify those facts: more than a dozen mass shootings in the 18 years prior to our GC measures. Zero in the 16 years since. ZERO. Gun crime in Australia went down. Your results may vary, but quit with the bullshit of "laws won't do anything".... They can, they do, they have.

Mass shootings are statistical anomalies. Never mind difficulty in defining the term. So we can't take the fact that OZ has 1/15th the population of America and then smugly point out that we didn't have 170 mass shootings in 18 years. Of the (rounded) 10000 shooting deaths in the US in a typical year, 30 or 40 are in this category, or 0.4%. You don't make policy for outliers.

The Guardian correctly notes the hysteria that Boston generated. But the writer has no idea what the objections to the gun legislation are, and did trot out the usual 30k lie using suicides. His failure to understand that most gun violence is criminal v criminal is why he can't understand why public bombings stir more emotion. They're new, unusual, but random and unpredictable. People fear them the way they fear Jaws.

[Andy9o8 0]

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People fear them the way they fear Jaws.

OMG, what did the Jaws ever do to you?

[kelpdiver 2]

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People fear them the way they fear Jaws.

OMG, what did the Jaws ever do to you?

nothing - I swim with them frequently. But I am not "People."

[Andy9o8 0]

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People fear them the way they fear Jaws.

OMG, what did the Jaws ever do to you?

nothing - I swim with them frequently. But I am not "People."

My genius is wasted on you.

[CornishChris 5]

Out of interest you cite 10,000 'deaths' and then 30,000 including suicides. Did the suicides not die?

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[Andy9o8 0]

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Out of interest you cite 10,000 'deaths' and then 30,000 including suicides. Did the suicides not die?

I think the competing arguments are:

> The suicides still would have died, just via other means. Look at Japan, etc...

> But having a gun available makes it easy to kill yourself quickly, painlessly and at a moment's impulse, so that probably adds to the overall number of completed suicides.

[normiss 622]

Not in the way he wants to use their deaths, no.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Out of interest you cite 10,000 'deaths' and then 30,000 including suicides. Did the suicides not die?

I think the competing arguments are:

> The suicides still would have died, just via other means. Look at Japan, etc...

> But having a gun available makes it easy to kill yourself quickly, painlessly and at a moment's impulse, so that probably adds to the overall number of completed suicides.

suicide attempts by guns are one of the most effective methods - no question about that. Suicide attempts by poisoning usually fail to result in death. Though this may call into question how serious the attempt was.

In any event, the point being that using a gun to kill yourself is a choice. Perhaps a mentally adled one, but no one else did it to you. And jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge is more effective than shooting, and remains readily available.

Chris - when someone says 30k without qualifying, it's an intentional lie of omission, done in part to make guns worse than cars.

[Skyrad 0]

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But Londoners, who endured IRA terror for years, might be forgiven for thinking that America over-reacted just a tad to the goings-on in Boston. They're right – and then some. What we saw was a collective freak-out like few that we've seen previously in the United States. It was yet another depressing reminder that more than 11 years after 9/11 Americans still allow themselves to be easily and willingly cowed by the "threat" of terrorism.

Says it all really.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[mr2mk1g 10]

I always set suicides aside when looking at stats. They're intentional, however you look at them. Sure, There's the argument that the suicide was a easier as a result of the availability of the gun but bollocks, it was the intended result. Take away the guns and they still want to kill themselves. It's a separate issue.

But even then you're still still left with gun crime stats that are simply mental by comparison with most of the rest of the developed world. That's ok by me - it's your country, run it how you like. But we're free to think you're a bunch of nutters as a consequence of those choices.

Cast it as you like but much of the rest of the world think Americans are a bunch of coocoo's. Purely a result of the laws on subjects like this.

Oh and the Boston thing: it's simply been seen as a contrast between the classic brit response of "keep calm and carry on" and what's now more commonly being associated with the US as "panic now and freak out".

[kelpdiver 2]

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But even then you're still still left with gun crime stats that are simply mental by comparison with most of the rest of the developed world. That's ok by me - it's your country, run it how you like. But we're free to think you're a bunch of nutters as a consequence of those choices.

no doubt. But if you map out the trend line, it becomes clear that it has little to do with the recent surge in sales or our ever changing laws, and instead something more fundamental.

[billvon 2,404]

Good post. Yep, some of the most insightful questions about the US have come from foreigners. Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees, living here in the US.

[Stumpy 256]

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Good post. Yep, some of the most insightful questions about the US have come from foreigners. Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees, living here in the US.

And sometimes people refuse to see anything at all. ref post #3 on this thread.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Good post. Yep, some of the most insightful questions about the US have come from foreigners. Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees, living here in the US.

And sometimes people refuse to see anything at all. ref post #3 on this thread.

Another one who can't comprehend the issue.

[Stumpy 256]

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Good post. Yep, some of the most insightful questions about the US have come from foreigners. Sometimes we can't see the forest for the trees, living here in the US.

And sometimes people refuse to see anything at all. ref post #3 on this thread.

Another one who can't comprehend the issue.

And yet you continue to make my point for me

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[billvon 2,404]

>Another one who can't comprehend the issue.

You're sorta proving his point there.

[skypuppy 1]

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Out of interest you cite 10,000 'deaths' and then 30,000 including suicides. Did the suicides not die?

They also include about 700-800 'justified' homicides by police or civilians IIRC... That might be higher.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>Another one who can't comprehend the issue.

You're sorta proving his point there.

Nope, he's already proven mine. Anyone who thinks passing laws will make criminals more likely to obey them is living on another Planet. Or in this case, another country.

[CornishChris 5]

I was discussing this with a friend on the way to the DZ this morning with a friend. Apparently (anecdotal) suicide rates are among the highest in farmers in the UK. Having a gun to hand, as many farmers do with shotguns in the UK or handguns in the US, gives both an easy and a quick solution to suicidal tendencies.

Think of it this way, your girl leaves you, you get drunk on whisky then think about ending it all. If you have a solution right there it is a lot easier to take an action on one sudden low than to have to plan ahead. This may be a bogus argument but it makes some sense to me. If you wake up then next day then the thoughts may have eased if you didn't have a way to take action straight away. of course some people will still find a way but a gun sure makes it easier.

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[Skyrad 0]

Or a kitchen full of knives or a bathroom cuboard with sleeping pills in it or a barn with a hook and rope. I'm not convinced by that prticular argument. Espceially as farmers don't have a monopoly on shotguns and firearms of which there are 2.8 million legally held in the UK.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[kallend 1,635]

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>Another one who can't comprehend the issue.

You're sorta proving his point there.

Nope, he's already proven mine. Anyone who thinks passing laws will make criminals more likely to obey them is living on another Planet. Or in this case, another country.

OK, so no laws are necessary because criminals ignore them anyway.

Drunk drivers, child molesters, bank robbers, kidnappers, rapists, etc. etc. etc. will love your perfect, lawless society.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skypuppy 1]

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>Another one who can't comprehend the issue.

You're sorta proving his point there.

Nope, he's already proven mine. Anyone who thinks passing laws will make criminals more likely to obey them is living on another Planet. Or in this case, another country.

OK, so no laws are necessary because criminals ignore them anyway.

Drunk drivers, child molesters, bank robbers, kidnappers, rapists, etc. etc. etc. will love your perfect, lawless society.

How you extrapolate that from what he said is a mystery. The fact is those are laws. People that break them get caught and punished after they break them. It's the same with gun laws. Stricter gun laws will not prevent the crime - the perpetrators will still only be caught after they break them, and then punished.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[wmw999 2,126]

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Stricter gun laws will not prevent the crime - the perpetrators will still only be caught after they break them, and then punished

Just as changes in liquor laws have no effect on liquor consumption. And we do prosecute kids who try to get liquor to the max -- the prisons are filled with them, aren't they?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[billvon 2,404]

>Anyone who thinks passing laws will make criminals more likely to obey them is
>living on another Planet. Or in this case, another country.

And anyone who thinks that having a different opinion means they "can't comprehend an issue" - is, unfortunately, a typical arrogant American.

[champu 1]

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How you extrapolate that from what he said is a mystery. The fact is those are laws. People that break them get caught and punished after they break them. It's the same with gun laws. Stricter gun laws will not prevent the crime - the perpetrators will still only be caught after they break them, and then punished.

I would like to temper that sentiment slightly because there are a couple of different types of firearms laws people are talking about, and only most of them fall into this category of "one more thing to charge the bad guy with when you've arrested him for murder" not all of them. And, for the record, this whole post isn't addressed solely at you. By definition, only law-abiding citizens abide by laws, yes. This means you have two options to affect change using laws...

1) Look for behaviors of currently law abiding citizens that don't cause, but may contribute in some secondary or tertiary way to, crime, and then see if you can come up with something that might help. A couple areas to look into might be people who don't make a reasonable effort to secure their firearms from theft. Another would be people who sell/transfer their weapon to someone outside their family without the recipient having gone through a background check (as frequently or infrequently as this happens.) Even after you identify these things, however, there are good and bad ways to try and address them. Demanding people prove once a year that they lock their guns up via warrantless search or forcing people to sell through dealers for arbitrary fees and aggregating information about sales are two such things that have been shot down recently for good reason.

Also something people throw into this category a lot, which is highly frustrating is, "simply having a lot of guns." The proposed law here is, "heap on the bureaucracy and cross your fingers." which is a bullshit way to run government. People in this camp remind me of the politicians in states which try to circumvent and erode Roe vs Wade. It's disgusting.

2) Go full-Draco. Make the penalty for violation of the law easier to convict on and worse than any other crime the person would commit, thus attempting to make a law-abiding citizen out of someone. Example? Mandatory death penalty for straw purchases.