Would you tip off the FBI?

[quade 3]

I'm watching CNN right now and there is a discussion going on about how Russia supposedly tipped off the FBI a couple of years ago about the potential that the older brother had visited and they suspected he was becoming a radicalized individual. Whether this is true or not, I do not know.

But it got me to thinking about several people I know who have said things on social media and in a couple of instances I know for an absolute fact they are skilled enough to perform acts such as those performed over the last week. In fact, I have no doubt in my mind they are capable of doing a much, much better job. My guess is every skydiver who has been around for very long knows people like this.

On this forum we've frequently talked about friends and families of radical terrorists and loonies not coming forward before events get out of hand.

So . . . what is the tipping point? When do you make the call to the FBI about a friend you think might actually be going over the edge? OR . . . because he's a buddy . . . do you just cut him slack and hope he never does?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

So . . . what is the tipping point?

When somebody who has military experience, lots and lots of guns, and a pathological obsession with discussing gun politics with extreme stridency acts out his anger at being expelled from an online forum by creating repeatedly sock puppets, spoofing the names of real people, some of whom are now deceased, and using them to issue veiled threats. I'd say: yeah, that person has tipped.

[quade 3]

I have somebody far more dangerous in mind, not active on this web site.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Andy9o8 0]

What web site?

[quade 3]

Quote

What web site?

Facebook. You probably don't know him.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[champu 1]

Quote

So . . . what is the tipping point? When do you make the call to the FBI about a friend you think might actually be going over the edge?

In my opinion the tipping point is pretty far out on the limb (e.g. I stumble upon specific evidence of a plan, materials associated with making a device, etc.) I really couldn't tell you what someone would have to say/write to get me to notify the FBI if all they did was say/write something. Hopefully people would at least feel out a mutual acquaintance or two regarding their hunch before contacting authorities in that case.

That said, something this recent incident got me thinking about are the FBI sting operations where they go after someone they think might be dangerous and see if they can get them to park and try to detonate a fake VBIED. Given the alleged tip-off, this might have been a missed opportunity for such an operation.

[skypuppy 1]

Quote

I have somebody far more dangerous in mind, not active on this web site.

you think the gov't doesn't monitor facebook already?

The point is, in most of the recent crazy incidents, gov'ts DID know about the persons involved. They didn't bother looking farther. Maybe in the Lanza case the mother could have been more strident, we don't know yet. But cops had been involved with Loughner and Holmes, and fbi had been involved with this russian...

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[normiss 622]

More so when repeated sock puppetry and account copying is considered felonious behavior in one's home (posting location) state.
Might suck to lose your access to weapons....if you're a 'gun nut' anyway.

[quade 3]

Wow. Did this thread ever get derailed or what?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Skyrad 0]

Quote

Quote

So . . . what is the tipping point?

When somebody who has military experience, lots and lots of guns, and a pathological obsession with discussing gun politics with extreme stridency acts out his anger at being expelled from an online forum by creating repeatedly sock puppets, spoofing the names of real people, some of whom are now deceased, and using them to issue veiled threats. I'd say: yeah, that person has tipped.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[wolfriverjoe 1,351]

Quote

Wow. Did this thread ever get derailed or what?

Not really. It's a concrete example of what you are asking, an example that most of us are at least somewhat familiar with.
"Someone" is a known gun enthusiast. He is known to carry at least on an occasional basis, from what he himself posted in the past.
He has since become at least somewhat irrational. At least moderately obsessed. If I was one of the moderators involved in his banning, and lived reasonably close to him, I'd be concerned. I would give serious thought to informing the authorities.

For more of what you are really talking about:
If I knew someone who had the knowledge and skills to construct a decent bomb (I do know a few people that fall into that category) and I saw that person become obsessed/irrational/, then I would very carefully think over the idea of contacting the authorities. I would balance my friendship with the potential for innocent lives being destroyed.

I wouldn't want to call the cops on someone who is just venting frustration, but I wouldn't want to live with the guilt of not saying something when I had good reason to believe bad things were going to happen.

And realistically, my first step would be to contact a local cop (shift supervisor/sergeant) that's a friend and describe the situation in as much detail as possible without revealing identities.

Sort of "I've got a friend who's acting pretty weird. He's said "x" and "y" and done "z". What do you think I should do?"

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[ryoder 1,396]

Quote

Quote

What web site?

Facebook. You probably don't know him.

This guy?

https://www.facebook.com/Dragonmans

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Skyrad 0]

If you're concerned take your concerns to the professionals, if he is a danger then you might prevent a tragedy, if he isn't then no harm no foul.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Approaching the question from the other side, at what point do you have a legal obligation to say something? If someone you know tells you to "stay away from the finish line at the marathon", or "whatever you do don't go to school on such-and-such a day", do you have a legal obligation to say something, and can you be charged with anything if you don't and an attack does occur?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

Approaching the question from the other side, at what point do you have a legal obligation to say something? If someone you know tells you to "stay away from the finish line at the marathon", or "whatever you do don't go to school on such-and-such a day",

#1. do you have a legal obligation to say something, and
#2. can you be charged with anything if you don't and an attack does occur? Don

In the US: Probably not (to both questions).
If there are any state or local laws to that effect (I don't know of any), I don't see how they'd be upheld as constitutional if challenged, especially in federal court.

[sfzombie 3]

i believe that as long as you keep your mouth shut about this, nobody would offer to prosecute you, even if the laws exist, as they would not know about it.

this is the one rule that anyone doing anything even slightly illegal usually ignores: tell noone. almost 90% of investigations get solve due to someone talking.

http://kitswv.com

[BIGUN 1,069]

Quote

I'm watching CNN right now and there is a discussion going on about how Russia supposedly tipped off the FBI a couple of years ago about the potential that the older brother had visited and they suspected he was becoming a radicalized individual. Whether this is true or not, I do not know.

But it got me to thinking about several people I know who have said things on social media and in a couple of instances I know for an absolute fact they are skilled enough to perform acts such as those performed over the last week. In fact, I have no doubt in my mind they are capable of doing a much, much better job. My guess is every skydiver who has been around for very long knows people like this.

On this forum we've frequently talked about friends and families of radical terrorists and loonies not coming forward before events get out of hand.

So . . . what is the tipping point? When do you make the call to the FBI about a friend you think might actually be going over the edge? OR . . . because he's a buddy . . . do you just cut him slack and hope he never does?

Quade, the tipping point is when they move from expressing their first amendment rights to making an overt statement about committing a criminal act.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[skypuppy 1]

Quote

i believe that as long as you keep your mouth shut about this, nobody would offer to prosecute you, even if the laws exist, as they would not know about it.

this is the one rule that anyone doing anything even slightly illegal usually ignores: tell noone. almost 90% of investigations get solve due to someone talking.

maybe if it's verbal, but if it's email or facebook, etc. they'll find your name when they go through his computer...

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[quade 3]

Interesting.

Quote

How Toronto's Muslim Community Uncovered the Would-Be Train Bombers
A plot to blow up a rail line between Canada and the U.S. was thwarted on Monday, and Canadian police have arrested two suspects, Chiheb Esseghaier, of Montreal, and Raed Jaser, of Toronto.

But the most surprising part of the story might be how the suspects were discovered: They were turned in, reports say, by leaders of their own community.

Full story:
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/04/how-torontos-muslim-community-uncovered-the-would-be-train-bombers/275239/

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Andy9o8 0]

Seems to me, Mr. Heft, by allowing himself to be identified by name, has made himself a potential target of violence by those who might consider him to be a traitor. I hope in the long run I'm wrong.

[aphid 0]

Here's a differing point of view. Full disclosure: this newspaper (Toronto Sun) stands as our print version of your Fox News.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/tarek-fatah/jihadi-terrorism-boston_b_3138046.html

[quade 3]

This just in...

http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/news/news/state-regional-govt-politics/bradshaw-gets-1-million-for-violence-prevention-un/nXbs4/

I'm conflicted by this.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

If you're concerned take your concerns to the professionals, if he is a danger then you might prevent a tragedy, if he isn't then no harm no foul.

You may find out different about the 'no foul' decision......just sayin'.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Hey! It's a good thing, right? Got somebody you don't like? One phone call. Make his life miserable. Never mind his family, job, etc. Go get 'em!

My beta version of Kallend's Near-Future Seeing Machine tells me that the bulk of the calls, by far, will be of that sort....with the attendant screwings of the poor chumps...er, victims.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[ryoder 1,396]

Quote

Hey! It's a good thing, right? Got somebody you don't like? One phone call. Make his life miserable. Never mind his family, job, etc. Go get 'em!

My first thought as well;
Sick minds think alike.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.