Swooping Same As Low Pulls

[GreenLight 5]

Ya know back in the day, we had a little extra fun for those who dared. We called it Low Pull Contests. The idea of course was to see who could pull the lowest and still live. Because of the amount of people who went in and killed themselves participating in this foolish game, the practice was banned.

Being as how no one is perfect every time, and the fact that wind conditions change in split seconds, and also the idea that crap happens, I see no reason to continue accepting the practice of swooping and hookturns as "part of the norm". I believe that these practices are just too dangerous and not only for the person performing it, but for people on the ground as well.

We had a hook turner who collided with a jumper standing in the LZ a couple of weeks ago. The lines of the hookturner's parachute hooked the person on the ground in the face and ripped his face clean off. It took 300 stitches to get this guy's face back on.

We had another guy miss the swoop pond by a foot or two last week. He bounced into the pond after impact. He broke both femurs clean in half. The bones were sticking out through his jumpsuit. It was a real mess. He may lose his legs over it because of the infection he is now getting from the pond.

Does this all sound like fun to you guys? Even better, does it sound intelligent? I know you all think it will never happen to you. We all thought the same thing with low pulls. I know that hook turns and swooping will never be banned or outlawed. But I do think it's about time that the DZOs take a little responsibility for their actions and start making some rules about these non skydiving extra carricular activities. I also believe that hook turns and swooping whould be done in their OWN AREA away from all the other jumpers. After all, I participate in the sport too. I don't want to be taken out by some 300 jump wonder who thinks he's ready for swooping.

Just my opinion and I know that most of you are going to come back with something to the effect of, We know what we're doing!"... Well you are only skin and bones as far as the dirt is concerned. And guess what.... The dirt always wins.

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[Guest]

mind if i ask...but what is a "hook turn"? Is it just a high performance turn close to the ground?

thanks

[FlyinseivLP2 0]

You accept the risk to skydive, some people would say you are stupid for that. There are others that accept a bit more risk when they decide they want to swoop. Why should this should someone else decide what amount of risk we are willing to take? If this starts to happen to much someone will be telling you that you can't skydive. I understand that there should be rules as to where one can swoop, for others safety, but people should be left to decide for themselves what is to dangerous for them.
And what are the non skydiving extra cirricular activities you speak of?

[Thanatos340 1]

Why not ban Skydiving too.. People keep getting hurt or killed doing that too.

[Remster 24]

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Why not ban Skydiving too.. People keep getting hurt or killed doing that too.

Thats avoiding the issue. Low Pulls have effectively been banned. So is jumping a home made rig with no testing. So is jumping through clouds.

I think the sport has accepted swooping. Its an official competition event in many countries.

Its still adding a big risk factor to an already risky sport. The main problem comes with the added risk for others. There have been a few fataliies in the last couple of years of peopel getting killed by others due to a mid air collision during a swoop. Seems like there are a few injuries to peopl on the ground too.

I think its very fair to discuss how to balance swooping and the other aspects of skydiving.

Remster

[GreenLight 5]

As I figured, except for the student with 12 jumps, all are being defensive about their choice to perform hook turns. The student wants to define a hook turn. He knows what a hook turn is so I won't bother with that one. He can't wait to start doing them.

To the others, please remember that I am only comparing the inteligence of hookturning to the inteligence of low pulls. Just because you can get away with it many times doesn't mean you will get away with it forever. And from what I can see, there are many many more incidents involving hookturns than there ever were with low pulls. I figure it's just because we valued our lives more then.

You want to kill yourself fine. Bring your own emergency services with you or make sure you have insurance so the rest of us don't have to cover your hospital bills through higer taxes. And do it far away from the regular landing areas so that we can keep our faces intact.

There is no such thing as a safe hook turn. Just like there was never any such thing as a safe low pull.

EDIT:
Remster got his in while I was replying.. Good reply... It should be discussed. That's why I posted.

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[kallend 1,649]

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Why not ban Skydiving too.. People keep getting hurt or killed doing that too.

Swooping is OK and entertaining to watch, but is best restricted to an area set aside for that purpose, well away from spectators, structures and the standard landing pattern. Perris and Chicago have such areas, but no restrictions on swooping elsewhere, so far as I know. Swooping over spectators, cars, etc. should be reason for grounding IMO.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I don't want to be taken out by some 300 jump wonder who thinks he's ready for swooping.

I'm happy to see you view all swoopers as 'X' jump wonders.

I've said it before and I will say it again. There is a time and a place to go big on a swoop and a regular load (let's say something like an Otter or King Air load) it is not the time to be going big. Education is still on going, and some people do not listen. But why do you insist on grouping the entire swooping community into one category of 'X' jump wonders wanting to take you out?

Lately I've noticed a real animosity on the hop n' pop loads between myself (a swooper) and a bunch of old timers (accuracy guys). Not once has there been anything remotely close to a close call under canopy as I am very much aware of the benefits of horizontal and vertical separation and I don't want to be in the same part of the sky when they are doing their sashays down low to the ground. But that doesn't stop these guys from criticizing me and making their cat calls (like telling the pilot to only take the airplane up to 2k because only pussies need more altitude). I thought we were all siblings in this sport. But it's clear that some people have preconceived notions that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Maybe it's time to realize that not everyone is interested in living their lives the same way that you live yours. I promise you that I will stay out of your way (I will abort my swoop if you're below me), but there sure doesn't seem to be much interest in extending that courteousy my way.

PS: If you think I'm just another one of those young punks, think again. I am a member of POPS and have plenty of life experience. I'm not interested in messing myself up, but I'm also not interested in living my life as a zombie. Let me do my thing, I promise that I will try to do it as safely as I possibly know how to, and I will let you do your thing.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[GreenMachine 0]

Larry, first thing I want to do is agree with you about something. Every canopy pilot has a responsibility to NOT become a hazard to other jumpers in the air or spectators on the ground. I have seen a few mishaps where swoopers came in too hot, their lines snag a flag or something, and next thing you know somebody is on the way to the hospital. This is completely unacceptable! I think anyone who does that should have to pay for the person's injuries and be grounded for a month.

On the other hand, you are a skydiver with over 1600 jumps so you must understand the concept of accepted risk and perceived benefit.

Yes, there are some marginal increase in risk for a variety of skydiving disciplines. Freeflying has some risks that RW does not. Fully elliptical canopies have greater chance of malfunction. Swooping increases injuries from landing. And so...

Last thing we want is for the thoughts of the majority to control the actions of the minority. If we did that then of us would ever get to jump at all.

Oh, and your comment "bring your own emergency services, have insurance, and don't raise my taxes" was lame!!

If American really worked like that then fast food and vending machines in public schools would be illegal because of the obesity epidemic. I honestly think having to routinely check 12 year olds in school for type two diabetes is costing me more tax money than the occasional uninsured swooper who biffs.

Lastly, just so you know, I am not what anyone would call a big swooper. I have almost as many jumps as you and yesterday after work I did 4 jumps conservatively flying my Sabre2-150.

Rigger, Skydiver, BASE Jumper, Retired TM

[DSE 3]

Swooping is to skydiving what the Indy 500 is to driving.
You don't see Indy 500 cars on city streets, and you don't see Ford Escorts on the Indy 500 track.
Like many folks, having seen hook turns and swoops that have gone bad, I can't agree that they are like low pulls and perhaps should be banned, but they should be kept away from the general landing areas and spectator areas.
I'd think swoopers would agree with this, since unexpected traffic or obstacles shouldn't be a concern in proscribed high performance landing areas.

[Dolph 0]

Your question is legitimate enough, although your comparison of swooping to low pulls is off the mark.

I think you're right insofar as stating that swooping adds a good deal of danger to any skydive.

I think you're wrong when you equate it to an intentional low pull. Swooping requires patience to learn and for the swooper to build a set of skills. These skills and the experience that comes from many swoops helps the swooper to stay alive. Of course one could argue that the push to always "go bigger" negates this safety margin.

An intentional low pull requires little skill - a newly certified skydiver has what is needed to pull it off. Stable deployment, good PC throw. The rest is mostly luck.

The question at hand is a matter of risk tolerance - or perhaps it is better called risk acceptance. You feel that swooping is as irresponsible and dangerous as pulling low and that 'innocents' are endangered by it. As a result, you want it to go the way of low pulls - i.e. banned for being an unsafe, unwise activity within an already dangerous sport. Fair enough.

I see it more as an added calculated risk to a jump - similar to jumping at very busy dropzones with lots of traffic, freeflying, jumping in big formations, flying small HP canopies. In other words, risks we elect to take or not to take.

Somewhere there's a line that divides what is acceptable and what is not. It's easy to go way too far to either side. I don't know where that line lies, so I've just given you my perspective on things.

Whuffos often say the same thing about our sport. Substitute "hookturning" with "skydiving" and you get an argument I've heard before.

[GreenLight 5]

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Try not to worry about the things you have no control over
"Less bitching, more jumping"

That is precisely my concern. I have no control over someone elses decisions. Thus anyone with an A license can come along and take me out. And so as not to leave the experienced people out of the loop, anyone with a D license and 5000 jumps can take me out also.

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[GreenLight 5]

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I don't want to be in the same part of the sky when they are doing their sashays down low to the ground.

Flying slow and not doing sharp turns below 200 feet has not killed anyone that I know of yet. (someone will argue this Im sure) On the other hand, too many collisions have occured from people hooking and swooping.

Again I say please do it somewhere other than the main landing area.

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Swoopers need to know when and where they can swoop. But it's a two way street. Non-swoopers also need to stay away from the swooping lanes and everyone needs to be aware of horizontal and vertical separation. But that message doesn't seem to be getting across to these accuracy buddies of yours. Case in point, yesterday I'm first out of the Cessna hop n' pop load. I take a 5 second delay and pitch (then I need about 20 seconds or so to deal with my RDS before I can get flying and ensure I'm first down). While I'm doing this I see this "so called" experienced old timer exiting the aircraft about 2 seconds after I've jumped and he hums it down below me. Whatever happened to separation? I would think that an experienced skydiver would know that 2 seconds between groups is not safe. On the competitive swooping circuit you get a donut if you cut in front of the guy exiting the aircraft before you and it's not uncommon for us to give each other 15 seconds or more between exits. So why are you guys not giving the people in front of your proper separation? Of course if I try and talk to the old timer about separation, he just starts telling me about the old days and how only pussies need extra altitude and separation.

It's a two way street my friend. Swoopers need to respect non-swoopers and visa-versa.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[GreenLight 5]

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I would think that an experienced skydiver would know that 2 seconds between groups is not safe.

I agree 100%...And it's the whole reason for this board in my opinion. So that we can get to talking about problems such as this. Fi were you I would have gone over to that jumper and had a little talk about safety and exit timing.

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[Ron 7]

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As I figured, except for the student with 12 jumps, all are being defensive about their choice to perform hook turns. The student wants to define a hook turn. He knows what a hook turn is so I won't bother with that one. He can't wait to start doing them.

You know that? Don't be stupid. He might really not have a clue, he does only have 12 freaking jumps.

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To the others, please remember that I am only comparing the inteligence of hookturning to the inteligence of low pulls.

Well, you can't really compare the two. You can try, but you will not get much good info. The simple answer is that both are dangerous unless you have experience and the correct equipment.

But in truth they really can't be compared well.

I would agree that there should be an area for swoopers to swoop. And I also agree that swoopers do not always have the right to swoop even then. I will even raise you that people need more training to be allowed to swoop, and dangerous situations should be grounding offenses.

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There is no such thing as a safe hook turn

This I disagree with....But if you want to go that route, there is no such thing as a safe skydive either.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[GreenLight 5]

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there is no such thing as a safe skydive either.

Agreed... But please don't put more obsticles in the air around me than needed. I'm getting old... I want to continue the aging process.

I really think all we need to do is seperate the two disciplines as far as landing characteristics and practices go. We have a seperate student landing area. Why not a seperate hookturn and swooping area. In the main landing area the rules should be followed and deviations from the rules should result in warnings and groundings. And in the "High Performance Area" I'm sure they will also have rules. Simple as that.

What would you guys think of that? In my opinion it would acutally give you more freedoms and less worries...

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[PhreeZone 15]

If you want less obsticles, jumping a Cessna limits the canopies to 4 others max.

Perris has a really small grass landing area. Its not cheap to keep it green and grassy all year round. A second High Proformance landing area would need to be just as large and well maintained. There is a cost that will be associated with building and maintiaining it. If you are willing to absorb the costs in your tickets talk to Meloni and the rest of the management at Perris about this. It might be an item that they are willing to look into if more people bring it to their direct attention instead of just talking about it on a message board that they might not read.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[dharma1976 0]

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mind if i ask...but what is a "hook turn"? Is it just a high performance turn close to the ground?

thanks

technically speeking a hook turn is a turn low to the ground that hurts you or someone else

other wise it is a high performance landing

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[dharma1976 0]

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Try not to worry about the things you have no control over
"Less bitching, more jumping"

That is precisely my concern. I have no control over someone elses decisions. Thus anyone with an A license can come along and take me out. And so as not to leave the experienced people out of the loop, anyone with a D license and 5000 jumps can take me out also.

hmmmm sounds like you are spooked man...the truth is even if you ban swooping from the main landing area someone can still kill you there or otherwise....

I think the trick is to maybe self police more and really try to keep those X jump wonders in the real know and keep teaching them not to do stupid shit and try to teach them how to do it instead of how to fuck someone up...otherwise if we talk about banning things you just make other problems...

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[dharma1976 0]

dude you r nice section of landing area is smaller than the ranch swooppond...

no wonder...

I always wondered at thyat after having been at Perris..

especially with that hardpack desert cocoa shit you call surounding area...

can you just say ouch...

so yeah everyone tries to land on the grass which is tiny...

of course you are goign to have issues.

how about maybe getting a little more grass up in that joint eh...

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[GreenLight 5]

You bet I'm spooked... I spoke about LZ collisions a while back and got nothing but flack about it. Now it's happened and the idea of looking at a guy with a SKULL for a face, as did my good friend the badspot guy, scares me to no end. And yes I realise that we should not drop our guard just because we have landed...

Phree Zone brings up a good point. And I plan on just that. It's quieter drop zones and smaller planes for me. I like traveling anyways. And Cessnas have a certain romantic flavor that you don't get out of a crowded Otter.

In the meantime this does nothing to help make the main landing areas safer for everyone.

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[GreenLight 5]

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how about maybe getting a little more grass up in that joint eh...

I have a feeling that Wind Tunnels and Jet Airplanes are higher on the priority list than a nice safe LARGER landing area...

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[GreenLight 5]

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It might be an item that they are willing to look into if more people bring it to their direct attention instead of just talking about it on a message board that they might not read.

Oh they read this stuff. I know they do. There are all kind of people out there reading this stuff and someon lets them know when they or their DZ is being talked about.

Hi Benny.. Hi Pat... I know I'm going to hear about this now.

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[rasmack 0]

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Flying slow and not doing sharp turns below 200 feet has not killed anyone that I know of yet...

On the other hand not knowing how to correctly execute a low turn has killed people. We should try to learn all the flight characteristics of our canopies. The knowledge gained might save our bacon some day.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...