davjohns 1 #26 June 1, 2012 QuoteQuoteThe context is the current legal system. You do not get to argue that anything should be changed. Capital punishment is an option. LWOP is an option. Both carry the attendant perils that they have in reality. Execution perils: The convicted could subsequently be exonerated by other evidence. Mandatory appeals are costly. There is a moral implication for society. There is a potential burden on the person who has to throw the switch. Etc. LWOP perils: They can commit crimes while in prison. They can escape. They can be pardoned, paroled, sentence commuted, etc. and commit more attrocities. There is a cost to keeping them contained. Etc. YOU get to decide what the relative chances are that the perils of the sentence will come to pass. The jury has found the evidence credible and convincing. The accused are convicted of all the crimes beyond a reasonable doubt. What is your sentence? I don't get all the extraneous talk. Execution: Immediately upon exiting the court room. Emotionally, I could agree with that. Intellectually, I think there is great value to a bit of cooling off and re-looking the evidence to make sure we are doing what we must before we throw the switch. It is a grave undertaking to take a life. It should not be done in haste or with emotion.I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davjohns 1 #27 June 1, 2012 Quote being in a country where death penalty is not a solution, I do still think that these people shouldn't be able to be prosecuted. I hope you mean executed.I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #28 June 1, 2012 I wonder if lawyers and judges sit around talking about how bad we jumpers fuck up skydiving. Oh snap. There I go assuming there are skydivers here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #29 June 1, 2012 Quote Quote being in a country where death penalty is not a solution, I do still think that these people shouldn't be able to be prosecuted. I hope you mean executed. I mean, sometimes a Judge Dredd could come in handy and save the taxpayer's money.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davjohns 1 #30 June 1, 2012 Normiss: That was funny as hell! Piisfish: Got it now. Sorry I missed it the first time. I understand the sentiment, but I still believe in a system and standards no matter how heinous the crime. Slippery slope and all that...I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #31 June 1, 2012 I am a rather peaceful person, but in the end, it also hurts my butt to see my taxes wasted for scumbags who end up living in jail in a better condition than myself...scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 58 #32 June 1, 2012 A bit of a slide here but, in light of John Edwards acquittal, why are prosecutors doing such a poor job? Trying to come back into focus, it appears the money and therefore the talent is in defense. A defense attorney explained to me that the purpose of a good defense is to eliminate the possibility of a conviction being overturned on appeal. Again, it seems the money is in the defense and the appeals, not in the prosecution. Disregard, it is too far off topic.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,255 #33 June 1, 2012 QuoteI'm not angry at all. You made clear that you are against the death penalty because you can never be sure enough of the facts. There is no way to limit the death penalty to cases where you are sure enough. Cases where DNA evidence has been incontrovertable turn out to be lab mistakes. Eyewitnesses who saw everything who've remembered the wrong face. Confessions persuaded from the mentally unbalanced. Police departments who've simply invented entire cases. We know from hindsight that absolute, 100%, nailed on, no doubt convictions have turned out to be wrong. QuoteI asked about this specific case. Are you sure enough of this case? From what I've been told, yes. But so what?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Southern_Man 0 #34 June 1, 2012 QuoteA bit of a slide here but, in light of John Edwards acquittal, why are prosecutors doing such a poor job? Trying to come back into focus, it appears the money and therefore the talent is in defense. I think there have been a number of very high profile federal cases recently which have proven that the often quoted statistics of the very high percentage of convictions that federal prosecutors get are built on a foundation of sand. People with the resources to higher the best defense attorneys are able to beat the government prosecution. The problem is that most defendants are simply not able to hire adequate cousel and expend the kind of resources the prosecution can."What if there were no hypothetical questions?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davjohns 1 #35 June 2, 2012 I've done a fair amount of federal criminal defense. What I saw was that high conviction rates were due to cherry picking. A buddy of mine was a state bureau of investigation detective at the time and he had the same perspective. The feds have two kinds of cases; slam dunks and political. During the Bush administration, they prosecuted lots of felon in possession of a firearm cases. The bulk of them were guys who had entered a guilty plea in state court in exchange for probation. Then, the feds stepped in an prosecuted for the exact same crime, but with an admission of guilt in hand. Slam dunk. Alternately, they would keep sending investigators back to the drawing board until the case was airtight. Until it was airtight, they would not seek an indictment. The other kind of case is the one they lose. They prosecute someone for political reasons despite a weak case. Those are the ones where a good defense lawyer can make a difference. Meanwhile, make no mistake, the US Attorney's Office does not hire dummies. They are good. They also have the odds stacked in their favor much of the time. But when they don't, they are vulnerable.I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 126 #36 June 2, 2012 If you execute an innocent person, then you become what you are trying to 'filter' out of society, and therefore deserve the same punishment. Given that we HAVE executed innocent people, then the system is fallible. Fallible systems should not be used for such 'final conclusions' that have no chance or way to be 'corrected' in the future. I am shocked and dismayed by ROND's comment to execute immediately - such a Christian - I would expect no less. and BTW I used to be a strong upporter of capital punishment - but I was young and naive and I also believed that no innocent person has ever been executed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #37 June 2, 2012 Quote I am a rather peaceful person, but in the end, it also hurts my butt to see my taxes wasted for scumbags who end up living in jail in a better condition than myself... Holy carp, 'Fish...I live in a 10x10 closet and it's still better than jail. Don't tell me you are worse off than I am! You poor, poor man. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #38 June 2, 2012 Quote LWOP perils: They can commit crimes while in prison. They can escape. They can be pardoned, paroled, sentence commuted, etc. and commit more attrocities. There is a cost to keeping them contained. Etc. I guess LWOP doesn't really mean life without parole if they can afterwards be paroled? Or, did you include that in the list in error? Yes, I understand that the other items on the list can happen subsequent to a LWOP sentence.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #39 June 2, 2012 Given your criteria and parameters, no, I do not support state-sponsored execution.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RonD1120 58 #40 June 2, 2012 Quote I am shocked and dismayed by ROND's comment to execute immediately - such a Christian - I would expect no less. Caught one! I have to throw'm back tho, not a keeper.Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davjohns 1 #41 June 2, 2012 In my research, I came upon multiple cases where people were sentences to LWOP and later released. Even Manson comes up for parole now and he was given the death sentence.I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #42 June 2, 2012 Which in itself is rather surprising. Manson never got his hands dirty. I've often wondered if he would have been convicted in today's environment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davjohns 1 #43 June 3, 2012 Same here.I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #44 June 3, 2012 >In my research, I came upon multiple cases where people were sentences to LWOP >and later released. Agreed. And there have been many, many cases of people on death row who have been pardoned or otherwise spared; at least 140 since 1971. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davjohns 1 #45 June 3, 2012 If you had read, you would have seen I was responding to a specific question.I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet.. But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #46 June 3, 2012 QuoteWhich in itself is rather surprising. Manson never got his hands dirty. I've often wondered if he would have been convicted in today's environment. Funny you should mention that. I've thought of that too recently. I have to assume that he would have been. It was a very high-profile case in that a well-known actress was involved. Even today, especially so today IMO, the case would have been more heavily covered by the media and any other result would have been nearly impossible to attend. I can imagine that it's hard for the legal world to be aware of and NOT respond to public opinion in these types of cases. It appears to me that the law gets set aside in favor of public opinion in all too many cases.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sacex250 0 #47 June 3, 2012 QuoteWhat I saw was that high conviction rates were due to cherry picking. High conviction rates are universally due to plea bargaining.It's all been said before, no sense repeating it here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #48 June 3, 2012 QuoteIn my research, I came upon multiple cases where people were sentences to LWOP and later released. Even Manson comes up for parole now and he was given the death sentence. True and understood. Fortunately for him, California people came to their senses and eliminated the DP before he was fried. Correct me if I am wrong...his sentence was changed to life with provision for parole. Now don't get me wrong. It would be abhorrent to have one of your OP bozos released and re-commit a similar atrocity. Yes. I agree. You are asking for a vote on the lessor of two very evil options. I simply choose to let the bozo go rather than take a chance on executing an innocent. - There's no solution for the executed innocent. - There are solutions available for the released bozo. One is that his new victim cuts him down at the knees. That is one reason why I support ownership of weapons but that's a topic for zillions of other threads As far as your criteria and parameters. It's a cut and dry case you present. If only ALL cases were so cut and dry, then you might have a more solid foundation for the DP opinion and you would probably swing more to that side of the poll. My personal opinion is that regardless of how cut and dry it is, I do not want my goobermint, no matter how screwed up it might be, executing its citizens. The danger of executing the innocent in real life is there and it's a biggie...but not the totality of my feelings.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
