Florida Teen Shot

[skypuppy 1]

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Just so your all clear, I completely respect our judicial system and I respect the "System" It's all we have. It worked, the jury spoke, and GZ was found "Not Guilty" not "Innocent" that wasn't an option to the jury. I'm glad the system worked and I will continue to have faith in it. I respect the juries's decision.

But having said all of that, there's a human side to me that has a soul. I'm a born again (Lutheran) Christian, and I try my level best to "Walk the Walk" It just hurts with the loss of anyone in an "unfortunate incident like this" I have 4 children, 4 grandchildren, that could well have been any one of them, so I do look at this incident with parental eyes. There are no winners here. GZ's life will never be the same, and TM is gone prematurely, his parents lost their son and that part is very sad. For all I know TM may well have had it coming, and played the role of aggressor, I don't know, I wasn't there so I have no real personal first hand knowledge of this incident other than the internet, tabloids and having watched the trail gavel to gavel.

I'm certain that there is a perfectly good reason that the outcome of this incident culminated the way it did. It is my prayer and hope that GZ can pick up the pieces of his life as well as TM's family be afforded the same. This was one of the most well handled cases I've ever seen. The Judge left no doubt who was the alpha character in that court room. If not for her this trail could've turned out quite differently. Justice has been served. It's just sad a 17 year old young man lost his life because of this untimely incident. I'm confident that God has a plan for all involved. It is also my prayer as well. Take care, be safe. Keep all of the parties involved in your thoughts and prayers.
Best-
Richard

Frankly, GZ was 'innocent', and the judge and the prosecutors and the special prosecutor should all be disbarred for ever allowing this to trial, half the D of J and the Holder should be fired for this sham, and Obummer should be impeached for stupidity and sticking his oar in the water when all along the Sandford Police had made the correct decision by not charging Z. Unfortunate? Yes. But Trayvon Martin was the one who precipitated events here. He only has himself (and possibly his parents) to blame.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[skypuppy 1]

jclalor

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******Well hopefully the obligatory civil suit that is sure to follow will succeed.

Why? Because you have mountains of evidence saying GZ is guilty that the jury didn't have?

The burden of liability is much less in civil court, a jury need only find a person more likely than not to have acted negligent. it's also going to be nice to see all usual suspects that claim the system work, applaud the civil verdict.
There is no negligence here. TM tried very hard to hurt or kill GZ. GZ defended himself the only way he could. Prior to being attacked, GZ committed no crimes at all in reference to TM. Again, even if he did 'follow' him, 'following' is not a crime unless it is perhaps 'stalking', on a serial basis, or maybe 'menacing' - but we have no proof whatsoever that there was ever any 'menacing', in fact, GZ was on the phone much of the time...

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[skypuppy 1]

jclalor

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Considering what happened in LA when the cops were acquitted and then the feds charged them again anyway, I guess it really doesn't matter. Obummer and Holder will get their man anyway they can...

"I know this case has elicited strong passions. And in the wake of the verdict, I know those passions may be running even higher. But we are a nation of laws, and a jury has spoken" -President Barack Obama-


Sounds just like the words of a liberal President about to set loose his federal goons to get Zimmerman any way he can.

Well, we always knew this was gonna happen with obummer and holder in charge anyways, didn't we?

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[skypuppy 1]

devildog

*********Well hopefully the obligatory civil suit that is sure to follow will succeed.

Well, I hope NOT.

There's been a trial, he was found not guilty. That should be the end of it.

Don't need a federal "civil rights" suit, a civil suit for damages, or whatever.

Just let it go.

Agee 100%. There is nothing to be gained by continuing to stoke emotions. Let it go.

Sure there is. Race baiters gotta continue to make a name for themselves and make money off inciting hatred.

Gottsta sell those t-shirts, man. Now, before they go stale.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[jclalor 12]

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There is no negligence here. TM tried very hard to hurt or kill GZ. GZ defended himself the only way he could. Prior to being attacked, GZ committed no crimes at all in reference to TM. Again, even if he did 'follow' him, 'following' is not a crime unless it is perhaps 'stalking', on a serial basis, or maybe 'menacing' - but we have no proof whatsoever that there was ever any 'menacing', in fact, GZ was on the phone much of the time...

Who knows what the jury thought? they very well may have thought that he was most likely guilty, but not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and that equals an innocent verdict. In a civil suit, that same conclusion would be a win for the plaintiff. It's nice when the primary witness against you is dead, but it will be a different ballgame in a civil case, ask Orenthal James.

[skypuppy 1]

jclalor

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There is no negligence here. TM tried very hard to hurt or kill GZ. GZ defended himself the only way he could. Prior to being attacked, GZ committed no crimes at all in reference to TM. Again, even if he did 'follow' him, 'following' is not a crime unless it is perhaps 'stalking', on a serial basis, or maybe 'menacing' - but we have no proof whatsoever that there was ever any 'menacing', in fact, GZ was on the phone much of the time...

Who knows what the jury thought? they very well may have thought that he was most likely guilty, but not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and that equals an innocent verdict. In a civil suit, that same conclusion would be a win for the plaintiff. It's nice when the primary witness against you is dead, but it will be a different ballgame in a civil case, ask Orenthal James.

then maybe they should just drop the whole criminal trial process and do everything as 'civil' suits. Streamline the system. Want to kille someone? How much?

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[devildog 0]

jclalor

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There is no negligence here. TM tried very hard to hurt or kill GZ. GZ defended himself the only way he could. Prior to being attacked, GZ committed no crimes at all in reference to TM. Again, even if he did 'follow' him, 'following' is not a crime unless it is perhaps 'stalking', on a serial basis, or maybe 'menacing' - but we have no proof whatsoever that there was ever any 'menacing', in fact, GZ was on the phone much of the time...

Who knows what the jury thought? they very well may have thought that he was most likely guilty, but not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and that equals an innocent verdict. In a civil suit, that same conclusion would be a win for the plaintiff. It's nice when the primary witness against you is dead, but it will be a different ballgame in a civil case, ask Orenthal James.

Or maybe they thought no way in hell GZ was guilty at all. Love you how continually try and spin it.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[kelpdiver 2]

rwieder

Just so your all clear, I completely respect our judicial system and I respect the "System" It's all we have. It worked, the jury spoke, and GZ was found "Not Guilty" not "Innocent" that wasn't an option to the jury. I'm glad the system worked and I will continue to have faith in it. I respect the juries's decision.

No, the system failed. If he had been found guilty, that would have supported the bringing of charges and the imprisonment of Zimmerman prior to trial. But now that we've seen the DA's prosecution, we know what we suspected all along (and the big gun from Harvard argues) - that the evidence did not support a trial at all.

Zimmerman is jobless, has poor prospects, is in grave danger of death, spent months in jail, and is still open to further prosecution for the main event as well as for the petty violations around fundraising and his passport. Hardly 'getting away with it,' or the sort of thing that would leave him wanting to do it all over again.

[davjohns 1]

I've waited a while to get into this discussion. It's been heated.

GZ, with whatever faults he may have, has one quality that I greatly admire. He got involved. He was trying to make things better for his community. It seems to me that may be the crime for which he has been persecuted.

TM is now known to have been a thug, but people continue to make him a saint. I even saw a picture this weekend that someone did up of TM having a white robe placed on his shoulders by a diety. Wow. Tangible evidence indicates he was into street fights, drugs, theft, and gun dealing. He got killed in a streetfight. How this leads to heaven, I really don't know.

Both men had faults. One was trying to do good. The other was making some bad choices. Maybe he would have turned around. Who knows.

We will never know exactly what happened that night, but we know there is not evidence that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that GZ committed a crime.

From my viewpoint,

(1) the media misrepresented facts to make it more sensational (white man kills black child. Here's a picture of the cute 12yo. Etc). They started the storm of racial indignation that they likely wanted. It gave them a year of juicy news. Even last night, I saw where CNN continues to misrepresent facts in their summation of the story. They specifically say that GZ was told by the dispatcher to not follow TM. This was disproven in the trial and is widely available on the internet. But they spin the stories just like everyone else.

(2) POTUS stired the pot. He failed to remain impartial until the facts were known. Not the first time he's done this. He often seems to have opinions without having facts. I consider it one of his few real flaws.

(3) Special interest groups stirred the pot. They make money from these things. They can claim righteous indignation, but they make money from claiming someone's color is the reason they were shot. The jury seemed to think it had to do with him sitting on someone's chest pounding their head in the pavement, but what do they know?

(4) The media kept the heat on. They make money from it. Funny how often money keeps coming up here.

(5) POTUS is now using this for political advantage. Eh. He's a politician. They all do it. Can't really hold that against him.

(6) Special interest groups continue to profit from stirring things up.

GZ is probably a deeply flawed man. I'll stand beside him. I am also deeply flawed. I know many of you are not. Good for you. I am of the opinion that deeply flawed men attempting good is far better than perfect men doing nothing; perfect men doing evil; evil men doing evil; evil men doing nothing, and often; perfect men attempting good.

My father always told me that no good deed goes unpunished. Sometimes, it's just hard to argue with him.

I'm very sorry this young man died. I'm sorry about the anguish this has caused his family. Sometimes, people's choices catch up with them. Sometimes, it happens before they have a chance to learn from their mistakes. It is very sad. It is even sadder to claim the man who was trying to do good was actually doing evil. It indicates we have lost our perspective entirely.

I'm going to blame this one on the media.

Pull out the flamethrowers.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[Greell 0]

A lot of interesting points here. My only real input on this whole ordeal is...I don't really care. Why do you?

It amazes me that cases like this take president over other, larger, problems in the world. It's basically "Keeping up with the kardashians." ...People love drama. They love "sports" and picking a team to root for.

But what irks me most about this whole case is. People come out of the woodwork when the law does its job, and suddenly, they're legal experts with law degrees, and they're keen on explaining exactly how right or wrong everyone else is.

The law has one job. To tally up the facts (As they have them) and make a decision based on LEGALITY. Not on MORALITY.

From the little I cared to learn about this case...it sounds like people condemn the guy for shooting a kid because it was "wrong" or "He provoked it by getting involved"....that's not illegal, suffice to say. It may have been poor judgement, his behavior may have been immoral. But as far as you people are concerned, it wasn't illegal.

Now he is proven innocent, and people on the internet are sharing his address saying things like "Here's his address, you know what to do."...Seriously? You want the law to do its job, and when it does, and not to your liking, you think vigilante justice is the way to go?

If you don't like the way this country operates...there's the big fucking door.

[airtwardo 6]

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I'm sorry about the anguish this has caused his family.

http://jezebel.com/5993941/trayvon-martins-parents-settle-wrongful-death-claim-with-florida-subdivision


http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/12/17/brina-dearest-sybrina-fulton-and-tracy-martin-lie-to-cover-up-the-greatest-danger-to-black-boys-the-absence-of-two-parents/

Wasn't he raised by an aunt?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Darius11 12]

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A lot of interesting points here. My only real input on this whole ordeal is...I don't really care. Why do you?

Halleluiah
Its crazy how they can control what becomes important, how many people have died sense this trail started??? we don;t even know there names.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[OHCHUTE 0]

hey OBAMA: defending yourself with a gun against a criminal with intent to do harm, IS NOT GUN VIOLENCE.

So horrible you take sides after a jury decision using phony reasoning.

[Andy9o8 0]

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So horrible you take sides after a jury decision

He did exactly the opposite of that, as every person who's read the news this morning knows.

Once again, here's OHCHUTE making shit up.

[rushmc 18]

A civil case brought by TM parents is one thing. They have the right to do this. But they also know ALL the stuff the judge did not allow in the criminal case will be allowed in a civil case

As for a civil rights case? The DoJ and the Obama admin will say they are looking in to it. And then drop it quietly in a couple of years. As there is no case what so ever at this level IMO (and most lawyers and judges I have heard talk about this)

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Andy9o8 0]

rushmc

A civil case brought by TM parents is one thing. They have the right to do this. But they also know ALL the stuff the judge did not allow in the criminal case will be allowed in a civil case

Some of it? Yes, probably. All of it? More probably not.
The reason is that, whether in a criminal or a civil context, TM's general "status" (?) as a thug is not relevant, at least not all of it. What is relevant is whether TM was engaging in thuggery (or intended to) at the time GZ came into contact with him. So even in a civil context, and especially with the hyper-scrutiny of this case, you can expect a judge to be very, very scrupulous about dividing the one from the other.

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As for a civil rights case? The DoJ and the Obama admin will say they are looking in to it. And then drop it quietly in a couple of years. As there is no case what so ever at this level IMO (and most lawyers and judges I have heard talk about this)

I find it hard to predict how they'll proceed, or not, so soon. But I would predict that the final decision will be driven 80% by politics and public opinion, and 20% by legal analysis.

[rushmc 18]

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I find it hard to predict how they'll proceed, or not, so soon. But I would predict that the final decision will be driven 80% by politics and public opinion, and 20% by legal analysis.

I agree with all but the percentages
95% and 5% might be closer

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[linebckr83 3]

Andy9o8

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So horrible you take sides after a jury decision

He did exactly the opposite of that, as every person who's read the news this morning knows.

Once again, here's OHCHUTE making shit up.

Calling Treyvon Martin a hero isn't taking a side? Since when does being a thug and assulting a man make you a hero? Oh wait, we can just deny the evidence and assume he was a cute little boy who did no harm and was killed because of his fucking skin color. Ridiculous.

I'm waiting on him to comment on the hundreds of black deaths in chicago on a monthly basis. Crickets? Black on black violence doesn't sell stories. "White" on black violence does.

Btw, Obama is as white as Zimmerman is...half n half.

In the 50's and 60's the black community was on the rise because there were african american "heroes" who tried to make the world a better place. You want to know why many feel like the black community is on a decline now? Calling TM a hero is the reason. This is the type of person young black kids have to look up to apparently. Thugs. It'll just get worse from here. Sad.

"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

[linebckr83 3]

Andy, as a lawyer, how would you respond to another lawyer who says this to you? Keep in mind he is a black lawyer (possibly professor) responding to a facebook status of a law student here in Kansas:

"If you find it hard to believe the jury werent skewed in any direction than you have a long way to go to understand the legal system of which you will soon be a part of. It's really quite sad. You have no knowledge of social science of priming, racial profiling, and the world in which we live (that the legal process reflects). Just keep on living. I can't have this conversation with 20-somethings whose biggest convern is where the next party is and who is bringing the beer. To equate the feelings of those moms who have NEVER had to live in fear of their black sons being a target is ridiculous. I have to tell my son things they never have had to tell their son - just so that he isn't mistakenly shot by a fool who assumes because he is black he is dangerous! You don't know what the hell you are talking about and have sufficiently pissed me off."

I have my opinion of this "lawyer" but I'll keep it to myself as I did when I read his comment.

"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

[DanG 1]

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Calling Treyvon Martin a hero isn't taking a side? Since when does being a thug and assulting a man make you a hero? Oh wait, we can just deny the evidence and assume he was a cute little boy who did no harm and was killed because of his fucking skin color. Ridiculous.

Obama's statement:

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The death of Trayvon Martin was a tragedy. Not just for his family, or for any one community, but for America. I know this case has elicited strong passions. And in the wake of the verdict, I know those passions may be running even higher.

"But we are a nation of laws, and a jury has spoken. I now ask every American to respect the call for calm reflection from two parents who lost their young son.

"And as we do, we should ask ourselves if we're doing all we can to widen the circle of compassion and understanding in our own communities. We should ask ourselves if we're doing all we can to stem the tide of gun violence that claims too many lives across this country on a daily basis.

"We should ask ourselves, as individuals and as a society, how we can prevent future tragedies like this. As citizens, that's a job for all of us. That's the way to honor Trayvon Martin."

Care to make a retraction?

- Dan G

[linebckr83 3]

Yes I do. I need to quit multi-tasking. No idea where the word hero came from.

What I meant to say was:

"Telling us to honor Treyvon Martin isn't taking a side? Since when does being a thug and assulting a man make you deserving of honor? Oh wait, we can just deny the evidence and assume he was a cute little boy who did no harm and was killed because of his fucking skin color. Ridiculous."

This case has shown that a gun was used in self-defense. Wtf does that have to do with gun control? What about all the other violence with guns that are being used to murder not defend? For someone with as much information at his disposal as the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, he should be educated on the trial of which he wants to comment on. He very much is not.

"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

[OHCHUTE 0]

DanG

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Calling Treyvon Martin a hero isn't taking a side? Since when does being a thug and assulting a man make you a hero? Oh wait, we can just deny the evidence and assume he was a cute little boy who did no harm and was killed because of his fucking skin color. Ridiculous.

Obama's statement:

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The death of Trayvon Martin was a tragedy. Not just for his family, or for any one community, but for America. I know this case has elicited strong passions. And in the wake of the verdict, I know those passions may be running even higher.

"But we are a nation of laws, and a jury has spoken. I now ask every American to respect the call for calm reflection from two parents who lost their young son.

"And as we do, we should ask ourselves if we're doing all we can to widen the circle of compassion and understanding in our own communities. We should ask ourselves if we're doing all we can to stem the tide of gun violence that claims too many lives across this country on a daily basis.

"We should ask ourselves, as individuals and as a society, how we can prevent future tragedies like this. As citizens, that's a job for all of us. That's the way to honor Trayvon Martin."

Care to make a retraction?

They attempted to portray Zim as perp. Showing him in prison garb, in irons, and then showed TM as the cute little boy.
What the liberal need experience, is a knife or gun shoved in there gut in DC to fully understand that the majority of black males are not your little darlings. In fact, they are feared more so, here in DC than any Arab teriorist as they're all packing. TM was smashing Zim's head in the pavement. Shooting him was the right thing to do. Arresting Zim was not. He was exercising his Constitutional Second Amendment Rights. Praise the jury for their correct decision.

[normiss 622]

Identities of the jurors made public:

[wayneflorida 0]

normiss

Identities of the jurors made public:

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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Since when does being a thug and assulting a man make you deserving of honor? ...

This case has shown that a gun was used in self-defense.

This case was about reasonable doubt. The prosecution's theory was that Zimmerman initiated the fight, the defense's theory was that Martin started it. If the jurors were not able to agree with the prosecution, beyond a reasonable doubt, they were obligated to return a verdict of "not guilty". That the prosecution was not able to prove their theory beyond a reasonable doubt does not automatically make the defense theory true.

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Oh wait, we can just deny the evidence and assume he was a cute little boy who did no harm and was killed because of his fucking skin color.

Martin was doing nothing illegal when Zimmerman decided he was up to no good. He was walking on a sidewalk in a neighborhood he had every right to be in, while talking on a cell phone. The defense certainly did not even try to prove that Martin was committing a crime when Zimmerman profiled him as a criminal. Zimmerman certainly did not know who Martin was at that point, and knew nothing about him personally. On what basis did he decide Martin was worthy of suspicion? Do you think he would have called the police and then followed Martin, had Martin been wearing dress pants, a white shirt, and a tie like a Mormon missionary?

Black males get profiled a million times every day in this country. OCHUTE's post is a prime example. Sometimes that leads to confrontations. It's interesting that Zimmerman has a right to self defense, but apparently Martin did not. It is a tragedy that young black males are presumed to be thugs, by OCHUTE, by you, and by millions of others. It is a tragedy that so many people die for no good reason.

I heard one commentator ask if he now has to dress his sons in a tuxedo before he lets them go to the store. If they are confronted by an unknown stranger, are they obligated to meekly acquiesce to every demand? I for one have no idea how to answer his questions.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)