Florida Teen Shot

[rushmc 18]

Quote

There was no self-defense, no matter what one may say went down. Whether he hit Zimmerman or not is irrelevant.

I highly suspect that if you're unarmed walking down a road and some guy starts following you with a gun, you will either A) Try to run, or B) Let him get close enough and then look to defend yourself using force.

The option of A and B differs between people, but when someone has a gun, running is likely to be less effective if you're already within range. If you think they're wanting to rob you and you think you can disarm them, many people would opt for option B.


I find it slightly humorous how the people who are trying to argue self-defense don't seem to think that it's self-defense when someone hits an armed person when they approach you in a street at night. I can assure you that in that situation most will be thinking the armed stranger approaching you is putting you under threat.

Well there we go then

Some one who knows exactly what happened that day
So

No more debate is needed

Thanks for the insight

(no need to waste any more time here)

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

The option of A and B differs between people, but when someone has a gun, running is likely to be less effective if you're already within range.

Do you shoot regularly?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[normiss 622]

Clearly no, he does not.

[Meso 38]

Quote

Well there we go then

Some one who knows exactly what happened that day
So

No more debate is needed

Thanks for the insight

(no need to waste any more time here)

I made no claim to know what went on, but I am saying that even if what Zimmerman claims is true on the basic level (that he followed the kid and was was then hit), the actions of assaulting him would be completely justified. And that chances are most people would do the same thing, either run or try to defend themselves.

[Meso 38]

Quote

Do you shoot regularly?

I guess I should specify what I meant by 'in range'. I was thinking a couple of feet. The point being not everyone's reaction is going to be to run.

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Quote

Well there we go then

Some one who knows exactly what happened that day
So

No more debate is needed

Thanks for the insight

(no need to waste any more time here)

I made no claim to know what went on, but I am saying that even if what Zimmerman claims is true on the basic level (that he followed the kid and was was then hit), the actions of assaulting him would be completely justified. And that chances are most people would do the same thing, either run or try to defend themselves.

Zimmans story is that Trayvon came to him as he returned to his truck

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,135]

Quote

She also said that she was seeking justice for, Trayvon and his family

Sounds like she had her mind made up cause, in the end, Zimmerman may have been victim who just responded in self defense

What about justice for Zimmerman?

Of course she has. She is hardly unbiased. Its her son who got shot.

I'm sure that when one of your loved ones is killed, you will be very concerned about the fate of the person who pulled the trigger.....

[rushmc 18]

Trayvon's Mom

Quote

"I believe it was an accident. I believe it just got out of control and he couldn't turn the clock back," Fulton said, revealing her opinion about what happened the night her 17-year-old son was shot to death. "I would ask him, did he know that that was a minor, that that was a teenager and that he did not have a weapon."

Someone in the news that I can really respect

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-04-12/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-charged-jail-20120412_1_face-murder-charges-today-show-accident

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Quote

She also said that she was seeking justice for, Trayvon and his family

Sounds like she had her mind made up cause, in the end, Zimmerman may have been victim who just responded in self defense

What about justice for Zimmerman?

Of course she has. She is hardly unbiased. Its her son who got shot.

I'm sure that when one of your loved ones is killed, you will be very concerned about the fate of the person who pulled the trigger.....

Perfect timing

Oh
I was referring to the special prosecutor



Oh

And for Trayvon's mother?

look 1 post up thread

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,135]

Quote

Quote

Quote

She also said that she was seeking justice for, Trayvon and his family

Sounds like she had her mind made up cause, in the end, Zimmerman may have been victim who just responded in self defense

What about justice for Zimmerman?

Of course she has. She is hardly unbiased. Its her son who got shot.

I'm sure that when one of your loved ones is killed, you will be very concerned about the fate of the person who pulled the trigger.....

Perfect timing

Oh
I was referring to the special prosecutor



Oh

And for Trayvon's mother?

look 2 posts up thread

Thanks for clarifying. The last line you quoted was from the mother, not a wild stretch to then think that is who you are referring to.

Your English skills make it a little difficult to know what you are talking about sometimes.

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

She also said that she was seeking justice for, Trayvon and his family

Sounds like she had her mind made up cause, in the end, Zimmerman may have been victim who just responded in self defense

What about justice for Zimmerman?

Of course she has. She is hardly unbiased. Its her son who got shot.

I'm sure that when one of your loved ones is killed, you will be very concerned about the fate of the person who pulled the trigger.....

Perfect timing

Oh
I was referring to the special prosecutor



Oh

And for Trayvon's mother?

look 2 posts up thread

Thanks for clarifying. The last line you quoted was from the mother, not a wild stretch to then think that is who you are referring to.

Your English skills make it a little difficult to know what you are talking about sometimes.

No, the last line was NOT from the mother
It was from the special prosecutor

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SkyDekker 1,135]

Here is your whole post and the quote you replied to. Highlighting is mine:

(I am assuming you know that Sybrina Fulton is Martin's mother.)

Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


..."Let me emphasize that we do not prosecute by public pressure or by petition," said Corey of Zimmerman's arrest, which has received enormous public and media attention over the last several weeks. "We prosecute based on the facts of any given case as well as the laws of the state of Florida."

Martin's parents spoke after the announcement and his mother, Sybrina Fulton said, "We simply wanted an arrest; we wanted nothing more, nothing less. We just wanted an arrest, and we got it and I say thank you, thank you Lord, thank you Jesus."...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


She also said that she was seeking justice for, Trayvon and his family

Sounds like she had her mind made up cause, in the end, Zimmerman may have been victim who just responded in self defense

What about justice for Zimmerman?


The jury is supposed to decide

Not her

STW, I heard a couple of lawyers talking about this last night as I was hauling stuff for my brother in law

These lawyers say the tape of her saying this will most likely come out before and during court proceedings

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Here is your whole post and the quote you replied to. Highlighting is mine:

(I am assuming you know that Sybrina Fulton is Martin's mother.)

Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


..."Let me emphasize that we do not prosecute by public pressure or by petition," said Corey of Zimmerman's arrest, which has received enormous public and media attention over the last several weeks. "We prosecute based on the facts of any given case as well as the laws of the state of Florida."

Martin's parents spoke after the announcement and his mother, Sybrina Fulton said, "We simply wanted an arrest; we wanted nothing more, nothing less. We just wanted an arrest, and we got it and I say thank you, thank you Lord, thank you Jesus."...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


She also said that she was seeking justice for, Trayvon and his family

Sounds like she had her mind made up cause, in the end, Zimmerman may have been victim who just responded in self defense

What about justice for Zimmerman?


The jury is supposed to decide

Not her

STW, I heard a couple of lawyers talking about this last night as I was hauling stuff for my brother in law

These lawyers say the tape of her saying this will most likely come out before and during court proceedings

Do you want to me find the transript of the prosoctors remarks?

Or do you want to do that yourself?

Or

You can listen yourself

http://www.wcsh6.com/video/1557592103001/0/Angela-Corey-Press-Conference-Decision-on-George-Zimmerman

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[DougH 270]

Quote

There was no self-defense, no matter what one may say went down. Whether he hit Zimmerman or not is irrelevant.

I highly suspect that if you're unarmed walking down a road and some guy starts following you with a gun, you will either A) Try to run, or B) Let him get close enough and then look to defend yourself using force.

The option of A and B differs between people, but when someone has a gun, running is likely to be less effective if you're already within range. If you think they're wanting to rob you and you think you can disarm them, many people would opt for option B.


I find it slightly humorous how the people who are trying to argue self-defense don't seem to think that it's self-defense when someone hits an armed person when they approach you in a street at night. I can assure you that in that situation most will be thinking the armed stranger approaching you is putting you under threat.

Horse shit.

You can't prove that Trayvon knew that Zimmerman was armed and was defending himself any more than I can prove that Trayvon had no idea that Zimmerman was armed at he turned to attack him because he was pissed off that the he was confronted.

There is a reason it is called concealed carry. I will be the first to admit I can't prove that Zimmerman didn't have his gun drawn. So the ball is in your court, show me the evidence that proves that his gun was drawn which led to Trayvon attacking him.

I will wait patiently.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[SkyDekker 1,135]

Quote

You can't prove that Trayvon knew that Zimmerman was armed and was defending himself any more than I can prove that Trayvon had no idea that Zimmerman was armed at he turned to attack him because he was pissed off that the he was confronted.

There is a reason it is called concealed carry. I will be the first to admit I can't prove that Zimmerman didn't have his gun drawn. So the ball is in your court, show me the evidence that proves that his gun was drawn which led to Trayvon attacking him.

Which is what makes this case so interesting.

Wonder if a lawyer can jump in here, but in claiming self-defence would Zimemrman have to prove that the initial assualt was unprovoked, or would they only have to prove he was assaulted?

[wolfriverjoe 1,346]

Quote

Quote

You can't prove that Trayvon knew that Zimmerman was armed and was defending himself any more than I can prove that Trayvon had no idea that Zimmerman was armed at he turned to attack him because he was pissed off that the he was confronted.

There is a reason it is called concealed carry. I will be the first to admit I can't prove that Zimmerman didn't have his gun drawn. So the ball is in your court, show me the evidence that proves that his gun was drawn which led to Trayvon attacking him.

Which is what makes this case so interesting.

Wonder if a lawyer can jump in here, but in claiming self-defence would Zimemrman have to prove that the initial assualt was unprovoked, or would they only have to prove he was assaulted?

I'm no lawyer, and I'm not fully up to speed on the particulars of Florida's self defense laws.
But one of the basic premises of self defense is that the attack needs to be unprovoked. "Unavoidable" and "Reluctant Participant" are commonly used keywords.
And I don't see that in this case. Some are arguing that the final confrontation between Martin and Zimmerman was a seperate incident from Zimmerman's initial observations, surveillance and pursuit of Martin. That by stopping the foot pursuit, the initial incident was over and the subsequent confrontation was a seperate incident.

But I don't see it that way. Zimmerman told the 911 operator that he "Lost" Martin. He didn't say that this was getting out of hand and he was stopping, or that he had no authority to do any of what he was doing and he was ending the pursuit.
And would he have gone back to his truck and cruised the neighborhood, trying to locate Martin? (Pure speculation, I don't know)

And did Zimmerman call out to Martin "Hey dude, I give up, I'm not chasing you anymore"?
Did Martin know that Zimmerman had stopped (if in fact he did plan on completely giving up)?

Zimmerman initiated the incident by following Martin from his truck and then greatly elevated it by getting out and pursuing Martin when he took off.
Without a clear and definitive "I stop" action or statement, the entire incident is one thing. Regardless of who initiated the final confrontation (and we only have Zimmerman's word on that), the self defense claim is pretty weak. And as the initiator, SYG has no bearing whatsoever on it. Zimmerman wasn't "Standing" he was pursuing.

Others may disagree, that's cool. I won't engage with the usual suspects cutting and chopping and nitpicking. It's not us who have the final say in the matter. It's the prosecutor, defense attorney, judge and jury.

All I know is that, if I am in a similar incident, I'm not going to pursue anyone. It really confuses the self defense claims.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[livendive 8]

Quote

Quote

There was no self-defense, no matter what one may say went down. Whether he hit Zimmerman or not is irrelevant.

I highly suspect that if you're unarmed walking down a road and some guy starts following you with a gun, you will either A) Try to run, or B) Let him get close enough and then look to defend yourself using force.

The option of A and B differs between people, but when someone has a gun, running is likely to be less effective if you're already within range. If you think they're wanting to rob you and you think you can disarm them, many people would opt for option B.


I find it slightly humorous how the people who are trying to argue self-defense don't seem to think that it's self-defense when someone hits an armed person when they approach you in a street at night. I can assure you that in that situation most will be thinking the armed stranger approaching you is putting you under threat.

Horse shit.

You can't prove that Trayvon knew that Zimmerman was armed and was defending himself any more than I can prove that Trayvon had no idea that Zimmerman was armed at he turned to attack him because he was pissed off that the he was confronted.

There is a reason it is called concealed carry. I will be the first to admit I can't prove that Zimmerman didn't have his gun drawn. So the ball is in your court, show me the evidence that proves that his gun was drawn which led to Trayvon attacking him.

I will wait patiently.

As you said, none of us know whether Zimmerman's gun was drawn, but I'll say it doesn't matter. If someone is chasing me, at night, I'll assume they mean me ill and will treat them as a threat regardless of what weapons they may or may not be showing.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Melliandra 0]

One thing that confuses me, and in all the replies in this thread I don't think I've seen it, is why shoot to kill?

I realise the torso (where I believe M was shot) is the biggest target and while you're busy having your head hit on the pavement (if we're to believe the witnesses and Z) you might not take time to aim, but surely at that close range it'd be just as easy to go for an arm or leg shot which would have incapacitated M and avoided this controversy - assuming Z's story is correct and he didn't just kill the guy so that there was only one side of the story left to tell?

[Southern_Man 0]

Quote

Which is what makes this case so interesting.

Wonder if a lawyer can jump in here, but in claiming self-defence would Zimemrman have to prove that the initial assualt was unprovoked, or would they only have to prove he was assaulted?

I'm not a lawyer but am going based on research and some links that were posted by a lawyer up-thread. In many jurisdictions self-defense in considered an affirmative defense in which the defendant has to prove the elements of the crime (that he really had a reasonable fear of his life, etc.)

From what I read based on Florida precendent the standard is pretty generous and all the defendant has to do is present enough evidence of those elements to raise reasonable doubt that he is guilty of the charged crime.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[toolbox 0]

If a guy is coming after me,and I think he has a gun,I would most definitely not walk up and punch him in the nose.
That would be stupid,even more so than bringing a knife to a gun fight.

[jclalor 12]

Quote

***

Quote

One thing that confuses me, and in all the replies in this thread I don't think I've seen it, is why shoot to kill?

I realise the torso (where I believe M was shot) is the biggest target and while you're busy having your head hit on the pavement (if we're to believe the witnesses and Z) you might not take time to aim, but surely at that close range it'd be just as easy to go for an arm or leg shot which would have incapacitated M and avoided this controversy - assuming Z's story is correct and he didn't just kill the guy so that there was only one side of the story left to tell?

Once the decision is made to shoot, you need to shoot to kill. Sometimes shooting people in non vital areas just agitates them and they then take you weapon and don't show you the same common courtesy you tried to show them.

[toolbox 0]

***
yes,and late at night,if you were on a cell phone,got out of your truck,approaching me and were 'scary-looking',I might take the opportunity to 'defend myself' by shooting your ass...

Quote

Hell,if I seen you late at night,I might just shoot your ass for eating more than your fair share of hot dogs.

[billvon 2,418]

>If a guy is coming after me,and I think he has a gun,I would
>most definitely not walk up and punch him in the nose.

So if a guy came at you with a gun, and you feared for your life - you wouldn't try to defend yourself? You'd just wait to die? Interesting.

[toolbox 0]

If someone has a gun unholstered and ready to go,you would be better off zig zagging your way to cover and making some distance between them and yourself,since most hand guns are not as easy as people think to shoot with much accuracy from farther than 25 feet(especially in low light).
Now,if the gunman were say arms length away,then going for their gun to disarm them would be a better bet.
Most people who know much about guns,would tell you to keep out of arms reach from a threat to prevent being disarmed and shot with your own gun.
Saying George approached Trayvon within close range is pure conjecture and really makes little sense for someone carrying a gun.
Even trained police have often had a hard time hitting what they shoot at,and have even had their own guns taken and turned against them.
I will make a little conjecture myself and say that Trayvon probably did not know George had a gun,since it was most likely concealled and it was at night.
Trayvon feeling pissed off may have taken the opportunity to beat some ass.
But just like most of the post on this case,it is all conjecture.

[kallend 1,635]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Well there we go then

Some one who knows exactly what happened that day
So

No more debate is needed

Thanks for the insight

(no need to waste any more time here)

I made no claim to know what went on, but I am saying that even if what Zimmerman claims is true on the basic level (that he followed the kid and was was then hit), the actions of assaulting him would be completely justified. And that chances are most people would do the same thing, either run or try to defend themselves.

Zimmans story is that Trayvon came to him as he returned to his truck

I wonder what Martin's story is. Oh, he's dead, shot by GZ. I guess he is unable to "cooperate".

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.