AR-15 build optics question

[1969912 0]

Thanks for those links, mnealtx. I will be ordering a spare BCG, and it will be from the list on m4carbine.net. Those parts of an AR gets the crap kicked out of them on every shot. Even the Colt AR that I bought brand new had the gas key screws fail from not being properly staked, AFAIK.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[airtwardo 6]

I'm curious...anyone have an opinion on the Ruger clone?


http://www.ruger.com/products/sr556/index.html

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[skydiverbob 0]

I just picked up a Browe 4x32 Combat Optics sight to use on my AR10. Haven't had a chance to mount and zero it yet but it sure looks sweet.

Who Dares Wins

[1969912 0]

Quote

I just picked up a Browe 4x32 Combat Optics sight to use on my AR10. Haven't had a chance to mount and zero it yet but it sure looks sweet.

Just looked at some prices

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[1969912 0]

Quote

I'm curious...anyone have an opinion on the Ruger clone?


http://www.ruger.com/products/sr556/index.html

That's not really an AR/M16 clone. It uses a gas piston system, kind of like an AK uses. The AR/M16 uses a gas impingement system. It's a major modification/ total change to the original AR/M16 design.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Quote

I'm curious...anyone have an opinion on the Ruger clone?


http://www.ruger.com/products/sr556/index.html

That's not really an AR/M16 clone. It uses a gas piston system, kind of like an AK uses. The AR/M16 uses a gas impingement system. It's a major modification/ total change to the original AR/M16 design.

Yeah I know, an adjustable gas port at that! (like an FN)...I have a Colt AR piston conversion, I hear the Ruger's is tougher but haven't actually seen one or talked to anyone with one.

They are rather pricey, but hey whats' money anyway right?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[1969912 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I'm curious...anyone have an opinion on the Ruger clone?


http://www.ruger.com/products/sr556/index.html

That's not really an AR/M16 clone. It uses a gas piston system, kind of like an AK uses. The AR/M16 uses a gas impingement system. It's a major modification/ total change to the original AR/M16 design.

Yeah I know, an adjustable gas port at that! (like an FN)...I have a Colt AR piston conversion, I hear the Ruger's is tougher but haven't actually seen one or talked to anyone with one.

They are rather pricey, but hey whats' money anyway right?

Sorry, misinterpreted your question.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[wolfriverjoe 1,341]

Quote

Quote

I just picked up a Browe 4x32 Combat Optics sight to use on my AR10. Haven't had a chance to mount and zero it yet but it sure looks sweet.

Just looked at some prices

No kidding

But I was taught that rule of thumb for a hunting rifle is that the optics will cost as much as the rifle itself.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[aarco 0]

I would stay with a 4 power flex focus - and train at or inside 300 yards-- If you have to use batts for your sights, it might be a good idea to seek a pack mount in the grip --- A fold in stock AR- tighting key for the trig setting - lux rings on the inside lens-with spectrum back light matching- green laser pen spoting throw light -forward mounted - with an enverted reload mount at the well -- when you get into double recall optic mount settings - the last thing you want to be lessing is balance acts with extra weight-from batterys--thats was one type system I had worked with before-- But I always miss the M-4-----check out the net on micro 5.56- newness--

Having something never beats doing (>|<)
Iam building things - Iam working on my mind- I am going to change this world - its what I came here 4- - -

[rrmtopo 1]

Other than the 10/22 & 22 pistol, most anything Ruger I've compared has been crap. Much better options for the money; LWRC, HK & others make a better piston upper IMHO.

I've had an ACOG mounted on my 16" AR for years & love it. 3-gun, plinking works great and holds it's zero even when removed & put back on. Aimpoint mini on my shorty AR, good for 100 yds & closer. Try them first & get what YOU like.

[LouDiamond 1]

+1 on the EOTech recomendations. I would also throw out there the Aimpoint T-1. In either case, since you are planing on using iron sights as well , determine if you prefer co-witness or not and use the appropriate riser if needed.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

I would stay with a 4 power flex focus - and train at or inside 300 yards-- If you have to use batts for your sights, it might be a good idea to seek a pack mount in the grip --- A fold in stock AR- tighting key for the trig setting - lux rings on the inside lens-with spectrum back light matching- green laser pen spoting throw light -forward mounted - with an enverted reload mount at the well -- when you get into double recall optic mount settings - the last thing you want to be lessing is balance acts with extra weight-from batterys--thats was one type system I had worked with before-- But I always miss the M-4-----check out the net on micro 5.56- newness--

Two words: "iron sights".

[rhaig 0]

Quote

Two words: "iron sights".

That.

I'm ordering an AK this week (post conversion saiga, already 922r compliant) and a buddy asked if I was going to replace the handguards with quadrails so I could put a red-dot and a light on it. I looked at him like he was stupid (well, to be honest, sometimes he his) and said "it's an AK... WHY does it need a red-dot and a light?" He didn't have a good answer. Yeah... I'm going to take one of the (arguably) most reliable platforms, and add a bunch of shit to it that can break. I'm not even planning on using it in 3-gun. I just like the platform. I want one.

so yeah. "iron sights"

--
Rob

[steve1 5]

Pardon my ignorance, but I thought 5.56 was exactly the same cartridge as 223....I bought some factory 223 for my military issue M-16, back in the day. This was when I was still in the National Guard. It fired fine, even on full auto. This was about 35 years ago. So, unless things have changed, aren't they the same cartridge? Why would one work in a gun and not the other?

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Pardon my ignorance, but I thought 5.56 was exactly the same cartridge as 223....I bought some factory 223 for my military issue M-16, back in the day. This was when I was still in the National Guard. It fired fine, even on full auto. This was about 35 years ago. So, unless things have changed, aren't they the same cartridge? Why would one work in a gun and not the other?

From wikipedia....

While the 5.56 mm and .223 cartridges are very similar, they are not identical. Military cases are made from thicker brass than commercial cases, which reduces the powder capacity (an important consideration for handloaders), and the NATO specification allows a higher chamber pressure. Test barrels made for 5.56 mm NATO measure chamber pressure at the case mouth, as opposed to the SAAMI location. This difference accounts for upwards of 20,000+ psi difference in pressure measurements. That means that advertised pressure of 58,000 psi for 5.56 mm NATO, is around 78,000 psi tested in .223 Rem test barrels (SAAMI .223 Rem Proof MAP is 78,500 psi so every 5.56 mm round fired is a proof load, very dangerous). The 5.56 mm chambering, known as a NATO or mil-spec chambers, have a longer leade, which is the distance between the mouth of the cartridge and the point at which the rifling engages the bullet. The .223 chambering, known as the "SAAMI chamber", is allowed to have a shorter leade, and is only required to be proof tested to the lower SAAMI chamber pressure. To address these issues, various proprietary chambers exist, such as the Wylde chamber[2] or the Armalite chamber, which are designed to handle both 5.56 mm and .223 equally well.


These 5.56x45mm NATO cartridges are identical in appearance to .223 Remington. They are, however, not completely interchangeable.
Using commercial .223 cartridges in a 5.56-chambered rifle should work reliably, but generally will not be as accurate as when fired from a .223-chambered gun due to the excessive lead. [3] Using 5.56 mil-spec cartridges (such as the M855) in a .223-chambered rifle can lead to excessive wear and stress on the rifle and even be unsafe, and the SAAMI recommends against the practice.[4] Some commercial rifles marked as ".223 Remington" are in fact suited for 5.56 mm, such as many commercial AR-15 variants and the Ruger Mini-14[5], but the manufacturer should always be consulted to verify that this is acceptable before attempting it, and signs of excessive pressure (such as flattening or gas staining of the primers) should be looked for in the initial testing with 5.56 mm ammunition.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[1969912 0]

Quote

Pardon my ignorance, but I thought 5.56 was exactly the same cartridge as 223....I bought some factory 223 for my military issue M-16, back in the day. This was when I was still in the National Guard. It fired fine, even on full auto. This was about 35 years ago. So, unless things have changed, aren't they the same cartridge? Why would one work in a gun and not the other?

As airtwardo said, they are not the same, but my mentioning 5.56 was to differentiate between the 5.56 and other common AR calibers like .308, .338, 7.62x39, etc.

As far as my original question is concerned, I'm going to use fold down iron sights, learn to shoot the thing, and then explore the optics question at a later date. Hoping to do the machining on my 80% lower (another freebie) this weekend. Thanks to all for your input. Will post a couple pics when the weapon is assembled.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[steve1 5]

A friend of mine used to reload military 30/06 brass. The biggest difference was the primer pocket. It took a special tool to chamfer the rim of that primer pocket. Then you could seat regular primers.

It sounds like there is a difference in case wall thickness. Yes, that could make a difference in pressures.

The amount of leade often varies between guns. Factory ammo has a bullet that doesn't stick out very far, so it will work in all. My Remington bolt rifles have a very long leade. My only Winchester model 70 has a fairly short leade.

Thanks for the info. on this.

I was wondering what the triggers are like on most, out of the box AR-15's. I'm getting to where I hate a rifle that doesn't have a decent trigger. Some are just too heavy. Others have a lot of creep, etc.

[wolfriverjoe 1,341]

Quote

A friend of mine used to reload military 30/06 brass. The biggest difference was the primer pocket. It took a special tool to chamfer the rim of that primer pocket. Then you could seat regular primers.

It sounds like there is a difference in case wall thickness. Yes, that could make a difference in pressures.

The amount of leade often varies between guns. Factory ammo has a bullet that doesn't stick out very far, so it will work in all. My Remington bolt rifles have a very long leade. My only Winchester model 70 has a fairly short leade.

Thanks for the info. on this.

I was wondering what the triggers are like on most, out of the box AR-15's. I'm getting to where I hate a rifle that doesn't have a decent trigger. Some are just too heavy. Others have a lot of creep, etc.

Military brass has the primer crimped in. You have to either ream or swage the crimp out after the brass is deprimed. It's a pain.

The better (read: more expensive) ARs have good triggers. The lesser ones have the "standard" trigger. Not super heavy, but creepy and it isn't smooth creep, either.
A good after-market trigger is going to be a couple hundred bucks. Replacing them is usually a matter of knocking out a couple pins, pulling the trigger, sear and hammer out and replacing them with the aftermarket unit (most of the good ones are pre-assembled and come as a single piece).

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

The better (read: more expensive) ARs have good triggers. The lesser ones have the "standard" trigger. Not super heavy, but creepy and it isn't smooth creep, either.

There's a trick for that. Using a high quality heavy lube, like the Machine Gunner's lube from LaRue, put a small dab on the sear catch for the trigger. It smooths up the release. I reapply about every other cleaning.

This is a good time to bring up that you shouldn't dry fry an AR lower with out the upper and bolt assembly. If you need to release the trigger with the lower removed, creep it forward with your hand.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[steve1 5]

I used to like using a peep sight. I hadn't used one much until I was in the military. About all I've used for the last forty years are scopes. I tried doing some shooting earlier this year, with a new rifle, and iron sights. I soon realized that my eyes aren't what they used to be. I had a heck of a time lining up those sights. In low light you can't see them at all, even with good eyes.

That red dot scope sounds good, but I hate the thought of a gun that needs batteries. My son in law mentioned flip up sights. Are they worth having? Do they flip up above the red dot scope?

I've got a 3x9 Leupold on most of my hunting rifles. I might just mount one of these and call it good. Do you need a flat top for that. I would imagine that the scope would have to sit very high above the barrel, because of the high rear stock.

I thought I was about done buying rifles and pistols. I should know by now that guns are a lot like eating potatoe chips.

Next trip to town I'm going to look at some pistols and AR-15's.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

I used to like using a peep sight. I hadn't used one much until I was in the military. About all I've used for the last forty years are scopes. I tried doing some shooting earlier this year, with a new rifle, and iron sights. I soon realized that my eyes aren't what they used to be. I had a heck of a time lining up those sights. In low light you can't see them at all, even with good eyes.

That red dot scope sounds good, but I hate the thought of a gun that needs batteries. My son in law mentioned flip up sights. Are they worth having? Do they flip up above the red dot scope?

I've got a 3x9 Leupold on most of my hunting rifles. I might just mount one of these and call it good. Do you need a flat top for that. I would imagine that the scope would have to sit very high above the barrel, because of the high rear stock.

I thought I was about done buying rifles and pistols. I should know by now that guns are a lot like eating potatoe chips.

Next trip to town I'm going to look at some pistols and AR-15's.

Definitely easier to mount any optic on a flat-top. I know there *used* to be carry handle mounts, don't know if they're even made anymore, though.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[matthewcline 0]

There are still some A2 Handle Scope Mounts out there. Cheaper than Dirt has a few, AR-15 News has a few links as well.

I like the flat top set up, with the EOTech 522, the MBUS flip up rear sight and the "Standard Issue" front sight.

I do have a laser, but it is mostly for the look when we film, it is zeroed though,every thing is.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

I used to like using a peep sight. I hadn't used one much until I was in the military. About all I've used for the last forty years are scopes. I tried doing some shooting earlier this year, with a new rifle, and iron sights. I soon realized that my eyes aren't what they used to be. I had a heck of a time lining up those sights. In low light you can't see them at all, even with good eyes.

That red dot scope sounds good, but I hate the thought of a gun that needs batteries. My son in law mentioned flip up sights. Are they worth having? Do they flip up above the red dot scope?

I've got a 3x9 Leupold on most of my hunting rifles. I might just mount one of these and call it good. Do you need a flat top for that. I would imagine that the scope would have to sit very high above the barrel, because of the high rear stock.

I thought I was about done buying rifles and pistols. I should know by now that guns are a lot like eating potatoe chips.

Next trip to town I'm going to look at some pistols and AR-15's.

You're best starting with a flat top. It gives an even plane to mount your gear. I'm also a fan of a freefloat rail. Then you're able to pull with your sling (or push against your vertical foregrip) and not get barrel whip. Flip up sights are paramount, since reddots *can* fail. I've never had mine fail and I've never had the batteries die with out warning, but you have to plan for the worse.

The EoTech flashes at you when you have 8hrs of battery left. When I was in a position when I carried a rifle every day at work (won't allow us mount them on our motorcycles), I changed my batteries when they flashed or every 6 months (which ever came first). Even though I turned the EoTech on every work day, I think I only had to switch batteries once outside of the 6 month rotation. I run the 516 which uses CR123a batteries. Just like the light on my rifle. Just like my pistol light. Just like my flash light. Just like my backup flash light. Everything runs the same battery. Before I was on the bike, I would keep two in my pocket and there were 2 in my vertical foregrip.

I run my flipups cowitnessed with the EoTech. If my sights were up, that means my EoTech took a dump (has never happened to me). It also gave me a way to verify that my sights and my EoTech didn't go out of true on me due to getting bumped or getting into a fight.

Side note: slings. A quality 2-point sling is my favorite. 3-points have too much crap. Single point doesn't give me a stable platform to tighten up with. I run a Vickors Blue Force padded sling. Why padded? Standing perimeter for 8 hours on a stand off. After that I bought and over-nighted a padded sling! The adjustable sling is a favorite, since I can pull it tight and pull the gun in or I can let it out and switch to a goofy stance for a barricade.

LouDiamond is a person I would listen to about running the M4 and the associated gear. He has the most time and experience out of any one else here. I have a lot of experience carrying the AR, but have luckily never had to pull the trigger in "anger."

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[steve1 5]

Thanks Dave. Those flip up sights sound like a must for a red dot scope...(just in case those batteries fail). Somebody said you can shoot out to 300 yards with a red dot. So, I guess you're not limited to close range only with that kind of scope.

I've always liked a sling for hunting purposes. On a couple rifles I have the old fashioned military sling. It has a loop in the middle that I can slip my arm through. I then take a wrap and have my left hand tight agains the front sling stud. It make a very accurate platform to shoot from. It's an old target shooters trick.

The only problem with my slings are that I sometimes get in the habit of using them too much. I remember once missing my chance at an elk. There the elk was right in front of me. Instead of being ready, my rifle was hanging on my shoulder. By the time I got the rifle off, the elk was gone. It was a good lesson, on what not to do next time.

I've seen some soldiers using their sling, while having their weapon in front of them. That way they would be ready. I've never tried that. Maybe it's something I need to learn.

I was wondering on what barrel length to go with. Shorter barrels are handy, but I'm wondering about how much velocity you might lose, with say an 18 inch barrel versus a 22 inch barrel. I'd probably be using mostly factory ammo.

[matthewcline 0]

The Slings you're seeing soldiers use now a days is either one of the three, two or one points variations, all of which allow the weapons to be carried in the front "at the ready".

The only time we carry a weapon "at sling arms" any more is for reviews or parades.

There are hundreds of brand to choose from, a few are "favorites". They are like any accessory and have ups and downs.

3 points - adaptability to many situations, but can be complicated and over accessorised.

2 points- pretty simple, but some times has to be worn "loose" to allow for off hand shooting.

1 point - simple, and easy to transition with, but bust ya in the nuts when transitioning to the side arm (some times)

These are just generalizations and there is hundreds of more "facts" to use when considering your sling.

Barrels, like slings, what is the AR's prupose?

The military Standard issue is the 14.5", it works inmost all conditions with most all ammo types from zero to 600 meters fairly accurately, but training is key.

The Civilian world (None LEO and Military) the 16" is popular, mostly as it is the shortest you can have with out a welded on can or long break/hider.

Longer barrels are popular for hunting and competitions where range is a factor.

Twist rates come in to play as well as ammo types, that is a hundred more pages of stuff too.

Dave has good comments on the EOTech/Flip up set up, it is what i have and what i used for all my years of a flat top M-4 carry in the Army (When I was allowed).

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!