How many rounds of ammo are too many?

[maxmadmax 8]

Greetings to all human readers!

Had a local fire here not too long ago.

The homeowner had a lot of stored ammo.
A lot even by Texas standards.

I keep a few rounds but it's stored where it won't pose a hazard....unless you are a criminal.

Comments?

http://www.yourhoustonnews.com/courier/news/fire-destroys-historic-family-home-near-magnolia/article_212f29ef-f6a8-5e05-baf5-f79454dc9e01.html

Don't go away mad....just go away!

[Gene03 0]

"As the fire spread, an estimated 100,000 rounds of ammunition inside the house began reacting with the fire and popping in all directions, making it dangerous for firefighters to approach, Montgomery County Assistant Fire Marshal Scott Burlin said."

Popping? yes.

Posing a threat to firefighters or buystanders NO

I'm calling usual media BULLSHIT on this story.

“The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all is the person who argues with him.

Stanislaw Jerzy Lec quotes (Polish writer, poet and satirist 1906-1966)

[billvon 2,473]

>How many rounds of ammo are too many?

When firefighters have to burn the house down rather than risk trying to clear out all the homemade ammunition and explosives. That happened here last year.

==========
Authorities burn down California house filled with ammunition, explosives
December 10, 2010

Associated Press

ESCONDIDO, Calif. — A fire intentionally set to destroy an explosive and ammunition filled house in a suburban San Diego neighborhood yesterday rapidly consumed the structure without major problems, as fire crews and curious onlookers watched.

Authorities said the house was so packed with homemade explosives that they had no choice but to burn it to the ground.

Remotely controlled explosive devices ignited the house in Escondido, and it quickly became engulfed in flames as thick smoke rose into the sky, going just as authorities had planned to avoid spreading toxic fumes.

The fire began with puffs of smoke that rapidly grew larger and shot through the roof before spectacular orange flames overtook the house. Popping noises heard during the fire were likely hand grenades and ammunition, officials said.

. . .

The house was rented by an out-of-work software consultant who authorities said assembled an astonishing quantity of bomb-making materials that included the kind of chemicals used by suicide bombers.
==========

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

>How many rounds of ammo are too many?

When firefighters have to burn the house down rather than risk trying to clear out all the homemade ammunition and explosives. That happened here last year.

That was more about the homemade explosives and possible booby traps.

Ammo its self isn't dangerous if it stored right. Even in large quantities.

Anyways, how much ammo is too much? When you need it, what you have never seems to be enough!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[JohnRich 4]

The reported "danger" is media ignorance.

But let's presume that it is true. So if 100,000 rounds is dangerous in a fire, then wouldn't even a single round also be dangerous? Yes, it would. And does that mean that we should ban the private ownership and storage of ammo because of the potential danger in fires? No.

"Fire Journal", January, 1977, Vol. 71, No. 1:

Although much has been written and rumored about the 4th-of-July characteristics and so-called havoc of ammunition in fires, it just isn't so. Members of fire-fighting units are understandably uneasy when confronted by fires where ammunition is involved.

Several members of the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute have undertaken extensive experiments to show what can be expected when ammunition is involved in a fire. These companies have also made careful investigations after such fires, which show that the missiles do not have sufficient velocity to penetrate the garments and protective gear worn by fire fighters.

Tests also show that the whizzing sounds heard In the vicinity of ammunition fires are caused by primers expelled from the burning cartridges. The "pops and bangs" are exploding primers; the propellant powders burn inefficiently and make little noise.

Metallic cartridges in a fire are difficult to sustain in a burning condition once the packing materials have been consumed, due to the cooling effects of the metal parts and the relatively high ratio of metal weight to smokeless powder. Only a vigorous fire around metallic ammunition stocks will cause all cartridges to burn. Shotshell ammunition is difficult to ignite, but once well-ignited it will sustain its own burning due to the plastic or paper tubes.

- "Fire Journal", published by the National Fire Protection Association

[popsjumper 2]

...whatever is left over after the enemy has been stilled.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[billvon 2,473]

>So if 100,000 rounds is dangerous in a fire, then wouldn't even a single round also be
>dangerous? Yes, it would.

No, that's a foolish argument. It's like claiming that a 20% carbon dioxide atmosphere is fatal, so even a .002% concentration of carbon dioxide is dangerous.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

>So if 100,000 rounds is dangerous in a fire, then wouldn't even a single round also be
>dangerous? Yes, it would.

No, that's a foolish argument. It's like claiming that a 20% carbon dioxide atmosphere is fatal, so even a .002% concentration of carbon dioxide is dangerous.

Well, Bill. You can twist better than that. You must be getting tired.

YOU may feel it's OK to hang around and deal with the one....me? I'm outta there. One is dangerous, too.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[GQ_jumper 4]

Several members of the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute have undertaken extensive experiments to show what can be expected when ammunition is involved in a fire. These companies have also made careful investigations after such fires, which show that the missiles do not have sufficient velocity to penetrate the garments and protective gear worn by fire fighters.

Tests also show that the whizzing sounds heard In the vicinity of ammunition fires are caused by primers expelled from the burning cartridges. The "pops and bangs" are exploding primers; the propellant powders burn inefficiently and make little noise.
***

Nail on the head. When the bullets aren't placed in a rifle where the chamber and barrel directs the blast then they aren't likely to cause much harm. I've seen a lot of cooked off rounds flying through the air and they don't move quickly at all. Definitely not fast enough to cause a fatal injury with the exception of those rare occasions where its just your day to buy the farm!

I do disagree with that article's assessment of the "whizzing" sound though. That is typically caused by the round spinning in a awkward manner because the barrel of a rifle didn't stabilize it. I say this because I've had cooked off rounds come right by my head and the doppler effect is unmistakable what a round passes by you, and that cannot be created by a primer releasing pressure.

I had a wonderful chance to test these theories shortly after OIF became OND when our ammo storage facility took a direct hit from a 240MM round and went up in a blaze of glory. My two medics and I went into the bunker to pull out casualties and all of the connects were still burning and the rounds inside were cooking off. We had entire cases(1680 rounds) tossed into the air as the 120MM mortar rounds cooked off and the burning cases were slinging burning 5.56 rounds everywhere. It was like the opening scene from Saving Private Ryan had a baby with a fourth of July grand finale and named it the next Jackass sequel Either way, the rounds being cooked off were absolutely no threat to us other than being unnerving due to the sound and frequency of the rounds popping off.

We did unfortunately suffer a casualty in the incident though, my hiking boot. The 10-inch deep mud around the bunker sucked it right off while I was running around. I put it in for a purple heart, but alas was denied!!

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[steve1 5]

You can put a large caliber cartridge on a hot plate, and wait for it to cook off. If you cover this with a card board box, it is unlikely that anything will even penetrate that cardboard box. The case will blow up, when the powder ignites. (There is no rifle chamber to keep it together). The bullet will have little pressure behind it. In other words there isn't a lot to worry about.

The media doesn't know that. They assume that bullets are going to be whizzing at dangerous speeds everywhere. It just isn't true....

The media also likes to make a big thing out of something that isn't big. That way they can sell more newspapers.....It would be nice to hear the whole truth on something, rather than fabricated B.S.....

[wmw999 2,174]

I see this as a financial problem of the (uninsured) homeowner. The firefighters took what they thought was the right steps to preserve their own safety, which they'd also do if the structure were involved enough to risk their lives.

There apparently weren't bullets whizzing around the neighborhood; if the firefighters had thought that was a serious danger, they would probably have cleared a much larger perimeter.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[popsjumper 2]

I ain't takin' no chances.
CYA!

I'll watch it from a distance...behind a sandbag bunker...with a periscope.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[wmw999 2,174]

Remember to get post the video.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[devildog 0]

Quote

>So if 100,000 rounds is dangerous in a fire, then wouldn't even a single round also be
>dangerous? Yes, it would.

No, that's a foolish argument. It's like claiming that a 20% carbon dioxide atmosphere is fatal, so even a .002% concentration of carbon dioxide is dangerous.

.002% CO2 isn't fatal. 1 stray round is.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[billvon 2,473]

>.002% CO2 isn't fatal. 1 stray round is.

Hmm. I could have sworn I'd seen claims here that a round "cooking off" in a fire wouldn't kill you, since there's just not that much propulsion happening.

[quade 3]

Quote

You can put a large caliber cartridge on a hot plate, and wait for it to cook off. If you cover this with a card board box, it is unlikely that anything will even penetrate that cardboard box. The case will blow up, when the powder ignites. (There is no rifle chamber to keep it together). The bullet will have little pressure behind it. In other words there isn't a lot to worry about.

So, is that the standard, "a lot to worry about"? If one hot plate of large caliber rounds is not "a lot to worry about," then the implication is there is at least a little to worry about. Now, I don't know how many large caliber rounds fit on a hot plate, but my guess is it wasn't 100,000. 100,000 times "at least a little to worry about" seems to me might add up to "at least something to be cautious about."

Further, the experiment is faulty.

Here's the Mythbuster's take on it. Real bullets, real fire, "at least something to be cautious about."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfoJAwlUopI

Ok, so they probably won't kill you. Sure, you'll probably end up with 100,000 pieces of flying brass whizzing around and if they hit you it will hurt like hell, probably draw blood . . . but probably won't kill you.

Is that our standard for safety now?

I can tell you after watching that clip, if I was a firefighter there's no way I'm going near 100,000 rounds of ammo in a fire.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

So, is that the standard, "a lot to worry about"? If one hot plate of large caliber rounds is not "a lot to worry about," then the implication is there is at least a little to worry about. Now, I don't know how many large caliber round fit on a hot plate, but my guess is it wasn't 100,000. 100,000 times "at least a little to worry about" seems to me might add up to "at least something to be cautious about."

I guess if you think that a million mosquitoes nearby is more dangerous to you than a thousand mosquitoes nearby. But no, it's not a cumulative risk. I'm swam with hundreds of sharks and the tiny risk doesn't get multiplied by 300. it stays at the same tiny level.

Guns require a barrel to create velocity. In my house, the scuba tanks represent a greater danger, esp if as is common, they're about 1/3rd full after use. A full tank would pressurize till the burst valve gives. An empty one wouldn't build up enough. But the middle case...less certain.

* They did confirm that loaded guns under heat are a potential risk, and that would be one I'd worry about as a fire fighter. Someone that has 100k rounds seems likely to have a least a couple loaded guns.

[shah269 0]

What kind of question is this?
Never enough! Duuuh!

And no bullets in a fire do nothing.....ask Myth Busters on that one!

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[quade 3]

Quote

What kind of question is this?
Never enough! Duuuh!

And no bullets in a fire do nothing.....ask Myth Busters on that one!

Something is not nothing. I LINKED the f'in' Mythbusters segment that proved something happens.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 3]

Quote

I guess if you think that a million mosquitoes nearby is more dangerous to you than a thousand mosquitoes nearby.

Actually, it's 1000 times more dangerous. You'd have 1000 time more chances to catch malaria. Which is not nothing.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[shah269 0]

Quote

Quote

What kind of question is this?
Never enough! Duuuh!

And no bullets in a fire do nothing.....ask Myth Busters on that one!

Something is not nothing. I LINKED the f'in' Mythbusters segment that proved something happens.

I'm at work i can't see it.
But I've thrown lots of bullets and powder in lots of fires and yeah they pop but that's about it.
Now if you have a chaimbered bullet....oh stand back brother!

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[AggieDave 6]

Quote

But I've thrown lots of bullets and powder in lots of fires

I like guns, I like bullets and I like things that go boom.

However, you are an idiot.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Quote

I guess if you think that a million mosquitoes nearby is more dangerous to you than a thousand mosquitoes nearby.

Actually, it's 1000 times more dangerous. You'd have 1000 time more chances to catch malaria. Which is not nothing.

When none of them carry malaria, it's 1000 x zero. Zero.

And if you were instead in Africa, it's more about the portion of mosquitoes infected with malaria than the number of bugs. After the first few bytes, you're going to put more spray on, or cover up the skin.

And the other difference of course is that these 'exploding' bullets aren't like getting malaria. I wouldn't crouch down and expose my bare ass to the flames, but that's just obvious, no?

[shah269 0]

Quote

Quote

But I've thrown lots of bullets and powder in lots of fires

I like guns, I like bullets and I like things that go boom.

However, you are an idiot.

yeah yeah yeah the led is bad.....

but yeah the copper should just burst and that's what it did....little pop nothing more.

god not like I'm tossing an M107 in the fire!

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[devildog 0]

Quote

>.002% CO2 isn't fatal. 1 stray round is.

Hmm. I could have sworn I'd seen claims here that a round "cooking off" in a fire wouldn't kill you, since there's just not that much propulsion happening.

Depends on the round, where it is when it cooks off, etc. It's not likely, but people have died from it before. For example, a tightly packed round (or rounds) would cook off closer to a real firing due to the gasses trapping than one just laying out in the open.

Not sure the exact chances, but it has happened. I can attest to the fact that we had a patient's house burn down a long time ago, and during the fire, his ammo cooked off, and a bullet killed his dog (a large one). So, I would tend to believe that if it can kill an 80-100lb dog, the right circumstances of a cooked off round could kill a person too.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.